Legion (red Dwarf) Abstract and nonexistence downgrade

[Antvasima]

@Planck

Agreed. The page needs to be slightly reworded for better clarity.

 

[Tago238]

Firstly, not all hiveminds are really people possessing AE as it is atm, a hivemind can be a collection of minds and souls that aren't really incomplete constructs. Secondly, if you want to have a power that talks about people who aren't abstractions then just make a new page. Abstract existence should, surprisingly, be about abstract existence. Secondly an abstraction is a synonym of a concept. A concept is an idea, it's merely something that appeals to people, something starts being a concept when it becomes comprehendible. When you say "concept" what you mean are concepts that are a perception of phenomena (such as love and etc). In the case of type 3 concepts and above, controlling reality as we know it. When something is an abstraction it means it only exists in idea form, this can be affirmed by it literally being said to be a concept as you believe them to be, or this can be ascertained by it embodying something of physical implausibility and simplicity. Legion's existence is defined by a concept of consciousness (something which is an oversimplification of multiple phenomena only existing in people's perception) , when this fails his existence begins to falter.

 

[Overlord775]

@Zack

Because thoughts are by definition abtract in nature, they don't exist in any form material or inmaterial

@Plank

They got Type 1 AE mostly because of being treated as litterally fictional entities in-verse that reality can't affect tho

@Ant

Except that's how i've seen it being threated

 

[YungManzi]

"Because thoughts are by definition abtract in nature, they don't exist in any form material or inmaterial"

I don't understand this point. Thoughts clearly exist non-physically.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

And there's a massive gap between Non-Corporeal and Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Zachary.

Has anybody asked several discussion moderators and administrators to come here yet, or do I have to do it myself? I am tired and busy IRL, so I would prefer if somebody else handles it.

 

[Overlord775]

@Yung

Thoughts don't exist in any immaterial form tho, they aren't minds or consciousness or souls or anything similar, they just are

@Zachary

Thoughts are ideas and disembodied ideas are by definition Abtract Concepts

Also you can interact with type 1 AE by just manipulating what they are, for example manipulating a being of time with Time Manipulation

@Ant

They were already contacted, they just have not responded

 

[Planck69]

Thoughts definitely exist, I don't know where you get this idea that they're neither material nor immaterial. Unless we're suddenly using our minds to construct non-existent representations of information, sentience and will.

 

[Antvasima]

I just asked several administrators myself, in lack of better options.

 

[Antvasima]

I also strongly disagree with absolute correlation between the thought "I am hungry" going through someone's mind as a process in their brain, and a sentient conceptual abstract embodiment of time.

 

[Planck69]

Hey, maybe we all have non-existence manipulation and concept-hax whenever we decide to give a resturant a 1 star review.

 

[Overlord775]

@Plank

They don't, thoughts are fictional, unreal, immaginary constructs

The mind doens't "create them" as much as fantasize about them, just as

@Ant

The only thing the embodiment of time has over the thought is working on a larger scale and actually having an actual effect on the real world, but they both are by definition of the terms as abtract as each other

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Planck. This argument is stupid, and seems like borderline trolling just to be difficult for the sake of being difficult.

 

[Antoniofer]

To be fair, when I saw a verse get AE via being dreams, I started to think that we might be getting too lax with how this ability is granted.

I agree with this too. We were fine where the AE page didn't exist to be honest, if someone embodied something and gained powers due that (like Type 8 immortality, intangibility and/or concept manipulation) then we just used to write those powers apart.

As for being a sentient collective conciousness (I think is what OP refers), that is just Non-Corporeal (assuming it doesn't have a physical body, cuz nothing stop it from having a body), we do not list characters as NEP just cuz they lack a body (or do we? That's something else that needs to change if that's the case).

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

" I agree with this too. We were fine where the AE page didn't exist to be honest, if someone embodied something and gained powers due that (like Type 8 immortality, intangibility and/or concept manipulation) then we just used to write those powers apart."

Literally BEING a concept is a bit more than type 8.

 

[Overlord775]

@Ant

No need to get offensive just because you disagree

@Plank

Information not as "Data", but Information as the proprieties of an object, such as the value of the speed of an object

 

[Planck69]

When did we decide that thoughts are fictional and unreal? I'm clearly thinking right now and I certainly can't interact with nor manipulate non-existent structures. Thoughts are only as immaterial as the mind anyway, there's no arbitrary distinction between the two nor is the mind some sort of house for thoughts that's somehow more material than them like you seem to think. Unless our minds are also non-existent abstract constructs.

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm pretty sure abstract existence was supposed to include any type of abstraction, such as information or thought, and not just something grand like a concept that governs reality

In the first place I don't see what's the need for restricting a general power to such a degree

 

[Antoniofer]

I was refering to embody something, not all embodiments across fictions shares the same characteristics, they either a a physical construct a something (that's why the word embody) or represent something. Being a concept is something that also vary from verse to verse, and nothing stop one from having a body neither (that I personally would consider a "weakness").

 

[YungManzi]

I've certainly seen plenty of characters get AE type 1 for being thoughts and dreams, since it's inception as an ability here.

This probably needs its own thread once the move finalizes.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

There's a difference between information in a literal sense and literally just a psychic gestalst consciousness

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Antoniofer and Zachary. I personally think that the ability should strictly include genuine universal or higher sentient abstractions, not just any low level incorporeal entity. It mixes up far too disparate concepts. It would be better to create a separate ability page for the latter version if necessary.

 

[Planck69]

Agree. We're getting to a point where a character with good enough mind-hax, info and dream manip etc. can interact with abstracts. I don't need to go into why that's ridiculous.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It would be better to create a separate ability page for the latter version if necessary.

Non-Corporeal

 

[Andytrenom]

I agree with Antoniofer and Zachary. I personally think that the ability should strictly include genuine universal or higher sentient abstractions, not just any low level incorporeal entity. It mixes up far too disparate concepts. It would be better to create a separate ability page for the latter version if necessary.

Why?

Being "abstract" literally just means existing in the mind, it's not something as grand as you're implying by default. So why should the power to be abstract only mean something as severe as embodying a universal concept instead of what is meant by the term "abstract" in the first place?

 

[YungManzi]

A page for thoughts, personalities, fictionalities ect. and lesser concepts which don't govern reality, separate from the main Abstract Existence page?

I can stand behind that.

 

[Overlord775]

@Plank

You can think thoughts, but you can't imagine them

You can think "I am", but you can't imagine what "I am" looks like, nor what shape the thought has, nor what colour it is

This is because it's abtract and can't just be visualized by the human mind

Also, the concept embodiment of darkness can be affected by darkness manipulation and a time being manipulated with Time Manipulation

@Zachary

And there's a difference between a psychic gestation and disembodied thoughts

 

[Antoniofer]

Neh, I find kind of useless a power for lesser embodiments, even within few phylosophies humans can be considered lesser embodiments of life.

 

[Andytrenom]

We don't need separate pages for what is simply variations of a single power.

Abstract existence is the power to be abstract, is that clear? So people who are abstract should have abstract existence. Limiting it to only universal concepts is entirely arbitrary and creates the idea that things like information and thoughts aren't abstract, which is dumb

We don't need to overhype this power so much, and keep it away from anyone other than literal gods, keep it simple and treat it like the literal name if this ability suggests

 

[YungManzi]

How about splitting type 1 into two types then?

I honestly do think there should be some distinction between a dream/thought (Which can be affected via dream or mind manipulation) and a concept which governs reality, and can only really be affected by those who have conceptual manipulation or NPI which allows them to harm concepts which govern reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Why?

Being "abstract" literally just means existing in the mind, it's not something as grand as you're implying by default. So why should the power to be abstract only mean something as severe as embodying a universal concept instead of what is meant by the term "abstract" in the first place?

Because we would mix up far too different things, both in terms of scale and nature, and make the ability far too inclusive. In addition, we also already have the Non-Corporeal page.

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I read, I agree with Planck and Zachary's points; so, I agree with Abstract Existence and Nonexistent Physiology removal.

I do think we are being to lax with Abstract Existence standard; the ability should be for character that actually embodies valid Type "Concepts" from the Conceptual Manipulation page.

I think the wording change to the page would be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

How about splitting type 1 into two types then?

I honestly do think there should be some distinction between a dream/thought (Which can be affected via dream or mind manipulation) and a concept which governs reality, and can only really be affected by those who have conceptual manipulation or NPI which allows them to harm concepts which govern reality.

I suppose that could be an solution, but I still prefer if the power is restricted to abstract concepts and philosophical ideas.

 

[Andytrenom]

Abilities are a broad thing Ant, there being a wide gap between different users of one ability means nothing

Or do you think we should create separate pages for magic because there are so many different things of different nature it encompasses

The page is fine as it is, and I'd rather it not turn into something that only metaphysical gods will get, and that implies being abstract is not the definition of the power "abstract existence"

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hmmm

Should abstract existence be required to be either Concepts, Informatio, or Laws?

 

[Planck69]

How about splitting type 1 into two types then?
I honestly do think there should be some distinction between a dream/thought (Which can be affected via dream or mind manipulation) and a concept which governs reality, and can only really be affected by those who have conceptual manipulation or NPI which allows them to harm concepts which govern reality.

Agree. There should be something to indicate the difference between abstracts that can be affected by literal mind-hax or info-manip and abstracts that govern reality on a universal scale.

 

[YungManzi]

What about type 4 concepts, which are essentially thoughts/ideas?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Type 2 and 3 abstracts shouldn't exist

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ant, you read too many comics. Keeping Abstract as just big universal concepts is simply emulating comics for absolutely no good reasons.

I'd say that keeping abstractions (as opposed to just non-corporeal stuff) separate from other abstractions is a lot worse of an idea than keeping all abstractions together, away from regular non-corporeal. It would lead people to think that abstract information is equal to being a ghost or regular non-corporeal manifestation.

Seriously just state on the profile if the Abstraction is universal in scope. It's not hard.

 

[Antoniofer]

Wouldn't equalize imaginary beings with oneiric beings, although sometimes they are pretty similar (like in Inside Out), in other verses the Oneiric World is a complete different metaphysical place from the mind.