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Legend of Zelda Upgrades: Part 2
- Thread starter Lina_Shields
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- the legend of zelda
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My main question is why are we assuming that things made of light aren't the speed of light?
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Agreed with Xcano, I heavily disagree with giving characters speed ratings based on a fight that occurs off-screen we haven't got the faintest clue of.
Imagine what you could do if you treated scenes in such a fashion? Like a character is fighting off a burglar; we cut to the burglar's accomplice and we hear two gunshots offscreen and we see the burglar dead with his accomplice shot down not long after. I could just say "yeah guy fighting off the burglar dodged those two bullets at a millimetres distance."
Imagine what you could do if you treated scenes in such a fashion? Like a character is fighting off a burglar; we cut to the burglar's accomplice and we hear two gunshots offscreen and we see the burglar dead with his accomplice shot down not long after. I could just say "yeah guy fighting off the burglar dodged those two bullets at a millimetres distance."
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So, we've got a race that's likely made of light, has mastered the manipulation of light, and emanates light. This race battles beings of shadow, which are highly vulnerable to light and are notably swift for keeping up the the likes of Link and whatnot. These shadow beings still manage to beat the Light Spirits. Are we to believe that we can just assume that the Shadow Beasts can't simply keep up with attacks from Light Spirits? LordXcano would have us assume that one just popped up out of nowhere to kill Ordona, but that's as much of an assumption of my saying that the beings who already scale to someone with at least supersonic feats are fast enough to dodge attacks from the light spirits without aimdodging. If anything, I hazard that my suggestion is more sensible because it doesn't assume that the Shadow Beasts aimdodged or sneak attacked literally every Light Spirit in their war.
Just because information isn't conveyed onscreen or by means of exposition doesn't mean we can infer said information. So which makes more sense: the Shadow Beasts using convoluted, hardly foolproof tactics to take down a race vastly superior to them in every fashion, or the Shadow Beasts actually being able to keep up with the Light Spirits in combat?
Also, again. They're made of light.
@AMM
Good analogy, but it fails because we aren't talking about normal humans here and because we're not just talking about Ordona here; we're talking about an entire war betwen two races, not just onscreen feats. Furthermore, the homeowner in question here already has good speed. If the guy in your analogy here already had Peak Human/Subsonic feats, then scaling him to the bullet might be sensible after all.
Just because information isn't conveyed onscreen or by means of exposition doesn't mean we can infer said information. So which makes more sense: the Shadow Beasts using convoluted, hardly foolproof tactics to take down a race vastly superior to them in every fashion, or the Shadow Beasts actually being able to keep up with the Light Spirits in combat?
Also, again. They're made of light.
@AMM
Good analogy, but it fails because we aren't talking about normal humans here and because we're not just talking about Ordona here; we're talking about an entire war betwen two races, not just onscreen feats. Furthermore, the homeowner in question here already has good speed. If the guy in your analogy here already had Peak Human/Subsonic feats, then scaling him to the bullet might be sensible after all.
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Is it more sound to say they all fell the same way, a way we never see, instead of saying the Shadow Beasts scale? The four Light Spirits are all impressive beings and have never been shown to be lacking in situational awareness, especially since they maintain all the light in a given area and are one with nature and all that.
Also, they're still made of light. And let's not go the real life = fiction debate yet again. That has already been discussed and concluded in the favor of the upgrades.
Also, they're still made of light. And let's not go the real life = fiction debate yet again. That has already been discussed and concluded in the favor of the upgrades.
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You can't debunk me by saying that we never see them ambush the Light Spirits when your entire argument is that they dodged light, something that we also never see.
"Also, they're still made of light."
Quote? Do you have a source for this? They are never once stated to be made of light. They manipulate it, but not ever do they say they are made of it.
"Also, they're still made of light."
Quote? Do you have a source for this? They are never once stated to be made of light. They manipulate it, but not ever do they say they are made of it.
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@Xcano
Can you prove they are not? They manipulate light, can only exist physically if light is present, are embodiments of the land they protect (quote you gave), are called light spirits.
Can you prove they are not? They manipulate light, can only exist physically if light is present, are embodiments of the land they protect (quote you gave), are called light spirits.
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My arguement is that since we can neither assume that they did or did not dodge the light (the latter being more sensible because of the inherent situational awareness of the Light Spirits), we should look to the fact that the Light Spirits are made of light to continue. I don't know any quotes off the top of my head (though I am in the process of procuring multiple strategy guides), so let us look to the facts themselves: they manipulate light, they manifest themselves as light when appearing to Link, the light in an area weakens and dissipates and weakens upon the defeat of a Light Spirit, they've got "Light" in their very name, et cetera. Is there really further any burden of proof to be had here? Can one honestly read that list aloud and say that something with all those characteristics isn't made of light?
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"Can you prove they are not? They manipulate light, can only exist physically if light is present, are embodiments of the land they protect (quote you gave), are called light spirits."
Firstly, it's not really up to me to prove they aren't light. They could also just as well be dragons but I'm not going to ask you to disprove that because I don't have any proof they are dragons.
Also, it isn't that they need light to exist. It's that Twilight only exists when they are gone.
"they manipulate light, they manifest themselves as light when appearing to Link, the light in an area weakens and dissipates and weakens upon the defeat of a Light Spirit, they've got "Light" in their very name"
Firstly, it's not really up to me to prove they aren't light. They could also just as well be dragons but I'm not going to ask you to disprove that because I don't have any proof they are dragons.
Also, it isn't that they need light to exist. It's that Twilight only exists when they are gone.
"they manipulate light, they manifest themselves as light when appearing to Link, the light in an area weakens and dissipates and weakens upon the defeat of a Light Spirit, they've got "Light" in their very name"
- Yes, they manipulate light
- No, they manifest themselves as animals and they are stated to be the manifestation of the land, not the manifestation of the light
- They are not the source of light in the land, they protect the light. When they are defeated the light weakens because Twilight weakens it, not because the Light Spirit itself was maintaining it
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@Xcano
False, they can't manifest if light isn't in the area. Proved when Zant attacked Lanayru. He needed to "activate" the Twilight to keep him at bay, then he dissipates the twilight so Lanayru can appear and kill Midna with it's light.
And yes, you have to prove that they aren't light since is your claim that they are not. We have given our reasons for why they are, indeed, light.
About that last statement that they don't mantain light, yet Ordona said that the beasts stole their light (manifested in Light Tears) and then the Light in the area was covered in Twilight. They aren't the source of light, but they maintain it.
Edit: Also, them not being manifestations of the light (which would be odd, given their role) doesn't prove they aren't made of light.
False, they can't manifest if light isn't in the area. Proved when Zant attacked Lanayru. He needed to "activate" the Twilight to keep him at bay, then he dissipates the twilight so Lanayru can appear and kill Midna with it's light.
And yes, you have to prove that they aren't light since is your claim that they are not. We have given our reasons for why they are, indeed, light.
About that last statement that they don't mantain light, yet Ordona said that the beasts stole their light (manifested in Light Tears) and then the Light in the area was covered in Twilight. They aren't the source of light, but they maintain it.
Edit: Also, them not being manifestations of the light (which would be odd, given their role) doesn't prove they aren't made of light.
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I have shown that they share an uncanny number of characteristics with light; the burden of proof no longer rests with me.
Watch the introduction of Ordona and the others in their entirety. Light fills the area, and a source of especially bright light manifests itself and shapes itself into the visage of whatever.
At this point, we've come to not so much a battle of wits as a battle of endurance. I've been showing evidence, and Xcano has naught but delegitimized them. As polite as he's been, his arguements haven't convinced me yet. Neither of us shall convince the other, and I fear we may have entirely incompatible methods of coming to conclusions altogether. I think it's time I took my leave for the day and left the others to vote on the matter. Good day to all, and I'm glad we stayed civil!
Watch the introduction of Ordona and the others in their entirety. Light fills the area, and a source of especially bright light manifests itself and shapes itself into the visage of whatever.
At this point, we've come to not so much a battle of wits as a battle of endurance. I've been showing evidence, and Xcano has naught but delegitimized them. As polite as he's been, his arguements haven't convinced me yet. Neither of us shall convince the other, and I fear we may have entirely incompatible methods of coming to conclusions altogether. I think it's time I took my leave for the day and left the others to vote on the matter. Good day to all, and I'm glad we stayed civil!
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"False, they can't manifest if light isn't in the area. Proved when Zant attacked Lanayru. He needed to "activate" the Twilight to keep him at bay, then he dissipates the twilight so Lanayru can appear and kill Midna with it's light."
This doesn't mean they can't manifest if light isn't in the area, this means they can't manifest if Twilight is there. If they can't manifest in an area with a lack of light you could kill a Light Spirit by just throwing a box over them or waiting til night.
"And yes, you have to prove that they aren't light since is your claim that they are not. We have given our reasons for why they are, indeed, light."
Which I did with the bullet points. I addressed the things supporting them being made of light. Since you did not even try to refute that, that means that the burden of proof is on you to prove they are light.
"About that last statement that they don't mantain light, yet Ordona said that the beasts stole their light (manifested in Light Tears) and then the Light in the area was covered in Twilight. They aren't the source of light, but they maintain it."
Okay. A guardsman at a bank maintains the money in the vault and a repairman maintains a tank. But that does not mean a guardsman is a pile of cash and a repairman is not a tank.
This doesn't mean they can't manifest if light isn't in the area, this means they can't manifest if Twilight is there. If they can't manifest in an area with a lack of light you could kill a Light Spirit by just throwing a box over them or waiting til night.
"And yes, you have to prove that they aren't light since is your claim that they are not. We have given our reasons for why they are, indeed, light."
Which I did with the bullet points. I addressed the things supporting them being made of light. Since you did not even try to refute that, that means that the burden of proof is on you to prove they are light.
"About that last statement that they don't mantain light, yet Ordona said that the beasts stole their light (manifested in Light Tears) and then the Light in the area was covered in Twilight. They aren't the source of light, but they maintain it."
Okay. A guardsman at a bank maintains the money in the vault and a repairman maintains a tank. But that does not mean a guardsman is a pile of cash and a repairman is not a tank.
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Night has moon-light, so moot. Though expanding the argument; they have to be in the "world of light", as described in the game. If you take that out (bringing twilight), then they can't manifest.
About the bullets, you mean that^, I presume. So we're going to ignore every other point that has them being truly light, eh?LordXcano said:
- Not being faster, it would break the game otherwise. Also, game mechanics.
- Not looking like light is directly wrong, as something (in fiction) can be made of light and maintain form.
- Ah, and those bullets hurt anyother besides the ones stated to be able to hurt?
Is the guardsman being shown to only being able to even be there with cash? Can the guardsman manipulate said cash? Is he from a collective called "cash spirits"? The analogy would work if it didn't ignore the points that support the other scenario.LordXcano said:
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I've come to see that Xcano's wanting an onscreen feat is fair and reasonable; after all, even if reasoning alone was to be accepted and is enough to convince me, we would still have to deal with skepticism and downgrade threads periodically. However, I may have divined the solution to this problem. Behold the Beamos, an enemy type featured in Twilight Princess. This immobile enemy fires continual laser beams at Link. Below is pictoral evidence that this attack is, in fact, a laser:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_1.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_2.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_3.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_4.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_5.png
Here is video footage. I will attempt to procure better footage, but I cannot find footage of very good video quality. Apparently, video camera let's plays are still a thing these days. To those who would help find footage, normal Beamos enemies can be found in the Goron Mines and the White Beamos is within the Temple of Time
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNlQX89puc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNlQX89puc
Now, it may seem that the only way to deal with these things is aimdodging. However, personal experience (and a great deal of practice and trial and error) permits me to state that it is actually possible for one to react to a Beamos laser after it has been fired and block it with a shield, as opposed to aimdodging or blocking in advance. In fact, one can see that, from the first video in particular, Link has adequate time to react before the beam reaches him, and his movement speed is inferior yet comparable to the beam. Again, I'm sorry I could not procure any better footage, but I think this will still be interesting to many.
FTL speeds may be out of the question; after all, it is very difficult, albeit feasible, for Link to deal with a normal lightspeed beam of light. Relativistic reactions and Sub-rel movement speeds can now be considered reasonable, though. It may be worth noting that the Beamoses (sic?) are a regular enemy throughout the series, but their appearance in Twilight Princess has their most light-like laser attacks.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_1.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_2.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_3.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_4.png
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Beamos_5.png
Here is video footage. I will attempt to procure better footage, but I cannot find footage of very good video quality. Apparently, video camera let's plays are still a thing these days. To those who would help find footage, normal Beamos enemies can be found in the Goron Mines and the White Beamos is within the Temple of Time
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNlQX89puc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNlQX89puc
Now, it may seem that the only way to deal with these things is aimdodging. However, personal experience (and a great deal of practice and trial and error) permits me to state that it is actually possible for one to react to a Beamos laser after it has been fired and block it with a shield, as opposed to aimdodging or blocking in advance. In fact, one can see that, from the first video in particular, Link has adequate time to react before the beam reaches him, and his movement speed is inferior yet comparable to the beam. Again, I'm sorry I could not procure any better footage, but I think this will still be interesting to many.
FTL speeds may be out of the question; after all, it is very difficult, albeit feasible, for Link to deal with a normal lightspeed beam of light. Relativistic reactions and Sub-rel movement speeds can now be considered reasonable, though. It may be worth noting that the Beamoses (sic?) are a regular enemy throughout the series, but their appearance in Twilight Princess has their most light-like laser attacks.
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Hurray! I'm sorry if I caused you any trouble throughout these discussions, Xcano. I hope this will make it up to you. I'll try to find more footage if that would help you.
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If it's called pure light by the game itself I don't see how you're arguing it can't be light speed. I don't see how thunderblight ganon can be use to scale as all he fought was a weak mid game link who isn't comparable at all to end game link lol. Also there was that one boss in majoras mask who was reacting to natural light.
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@Iron
Let's pay heed to (and be thankful for) Xcano's calculation and work right now. Also, let's be sure to be careful with our tone. You know how that can be lost in translation when text chat is involved.
Let's pay heed to (and be thankful for) Xcano's calculation and work right now. Also, let's be sure to be careful with our tone. You know how that can be lost in translation when text chat is involved.
Ok. What tone? I'm simply expressing my thoughts. I doubt that its anything major.Follow Doctor Freeman said:
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Now the Beamos calc and 0.24c rating sounds good to me.
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I'm fine with relativistic.
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I also agree with 0.24c.
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I am also very fine.
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The feat came from Twilight Princess Link; obviously it scales to Composite Link, likely scales to most Links, Ganondorf, Demise, Majora, Hylia. I think basically anyone that currently has FTL rating would be adjusted.
Dust_Collector
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Just something to add https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUb5LQ93uNI
At around the 7:40 to 8:00 mark Majora also fires a beam of light just like the beamos, just something I thought was worth noting
At around the 7:40 to 8:00 mark Majora also fires a beam of light just like the beamos, just something I thought was worth noting
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@Dust Collector
Majora's beam does seem to be a ray of focused light, but Link seems to strictly aim-dodge it. Regardless, this calc would scale to MM Link and Majora, anyway.
Majora's beam does seem to be a ray of focused light, but Link seems to strictly aim-dodge it. Regardless, this calc would scale to MM Link and Majora, anyway.
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- Thread starter
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@Azzy: Are you okay with LordXCano's calculation? If so, we can upgrade everyone's speed to Relativistic.
The speed would scale to DarkDragonMedeus's listed profile I guess.
The speed would scale to DarkDragonMedeus's listed profile I guess.
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I have started working on the changes.
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Also, there should obviously be a link to the following calculation:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Link's_Speed_Compared_to_Beamos_Beams
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Link's_Speed_Compared_to_Beamos_Beams
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Cal said he was fine with it above, and Matthew also said he agreed. But, I suppose I'll wait for full comfirmation that the permission to change the rest is heard. So far, Twilight Princess Link, Ganondorf, and Majora have had their speed changed to Relativistic. Additionally, this is my first editing profiles, so my apologies if I made any mistakes.
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Alright, I shall wait for them.
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