League of Legends Discussion Thread 4

[RegisNex1232]

Possiblities are not evidence, Heinkel. It only seems reasonable because in your mind, you have already decided without proof that Fiora cannot be far weaker than Jax. I've pointed out that there is zero evidence either way, so let's not make any assumptions and rate them accordingly by using evidence and supporting statements, not bias and assumed 'facts'.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Also that last bit makes no sense at all and is probably the weirdest thing I have ever heard. This might be my noob status talking but, the weapon he used has no bearing on the feats he accomplishes with it?

Yes, the weapon used has no bearing on his feat

...

At the risk of coming across as rude, that's not how physics works at all. There's a reason we don't behead people with baseball bats- your weapon makes a difference. An edged weapon focuses your force to a smaller area- allowing you to cut things you wouldn't be able to with a weapon that's blunt like a bat.

Is that really how this site works? Weapon of choice is irrelevant to what you do with it? That's not how reality functions. Is this why you guys basically never use Newtons in your stats? So you don't have to deal with weapons and the like?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Regis the only one making assumptions and being biased is you

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except that you are once again assuming the weight of the statues and that Fiora herself has undergone such training or is superior in strength to those who have gone through such training.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

...

At the risk of coming across as rude, that's not how physics works at all. There's a reason we don't behead people with baseball bats- your weapon makes a difference. An edged weapon focuses your force to a smaller area- allowing you to cut things you wouldn't be able to with a weapon that's blunt like a bat.

Is that really how this site works? Weapon of choice is irrelevant to what you do with it? That's not how reality functions. Is this why you guys basically never use Newtons in your stats? So you don't have to deal with weapons and the like?

We dont use things like cutting edges here

Yes

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except that you are once again assuming the weight of the statues and that Fiora herself has undergone such training or is superior in strength to those who have gone through such training.

Not assumed, calculated

 

[RegisNex1232]

I could say the same about you and Heinkel, as neither of you has provided necessary evidence to justify your arguments.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Me, Heinkel, Shrek, Ever, Assalt, and Prom have all given detailed arguments, you simply refuse to acknowledge them because they disagree with your opinion

 

[RegisNex1232]

Based on the assumption that the statue is made of granite, and not some other material. Assalt never explains why it is made of granite. Also, did you miss the other 2 assumptions where you think Fiora must be stronger than the people who've managed that, or that she herself has managed to do it?

 

[RegisNex1232]

All of you haven't exactly given any proof supporting Fiora being 7B, only arguments without proof. So what is the point of citing everyone who agrees with you when your side has no proof to support said argument?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No proof in your eyes and your eyes alone.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Except that you are once again assuming the weight of the statues and that Fiora herself has undergone such training or is superior in strength to those who have gone through such training.

Not assumed, calculated

I would like to point out that this is likely a lowballing as well. Why should an armored Garen be only 6 feet tall when naked Darius is 6 feet 5? I'm not saying it's wrong but I'm pointing out that it's also a lowballed pixel scaling because it's legitly possible for Garen to be much taller too.

@Regis

Likely
Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable.


Likely is even usable for instances that are much less favorable than Jax's own personal admission, there's no reason it's not applicable here. There's no reason we should deny visitors the opportunity to go to the linked story and be able to form their own conclusion themselves if they desire (most of whom will interpret correctly that they do scale; most people DO NOT engage in mental gymnastics. particularly VSB's usual demographics). Visitors should at least become aware that it exists.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Calling an assumption a proof doesn't make it so.

And again, Heinkel, you think that Fiora being in Jax's tier is possible, not impossible. The only ones engaging in mental gymnastics are you and Weekly, in your attempts to pass off assumptions as valid proofs and reasoning.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Regis The one performing mental gymnastics is you by trying to find any way shape or form of interpretation, any angle in which you can argue its not legit and then clinging to it for dear life and denying that youre wrong despite multiple staff and members knowledgeable on the verse telling you otherwise

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

@Regis

Even if the said stone is mudstone or sandstone it barely registers as a difference compared to Garen being made just 8% taller (1.08 * 1.08 * 1.08 resulting in a 26% increase in mass). If you want to lowball the density that way then it should work both ways too that Garen's height in the calc was also extremely conservative.

 

[RegisNex1232]

None of you have actually proven your points or disproven my points, so I fail to see any mental gymnastics on my side.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except we have, multiple times, something you simply refuse to acknowledge because it means you'd have to admit youre wrong

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Man you really like downplaying even something as simple as legit statue pulling feats don't you? Oh it can't be because of this, because of that. I thought you were a good debater in the past, and I still strive to keep my opinion that way.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Let's get this straight, my only problem with the calc is assuming what it is made of, since Assalt never justifies it being granite/like granite. Otherwise, I'm fine with this feat of strength for Garen and Jarvan, as it is reasonable to assume that Jarvan may not be that much weaker than Garen as they have had many practice duels together. I do object to it being used to scale Fiora, since we are never given any impression that she would go out and train with the army as she is very focused on her own affairs with all of her duels and the family business.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Friendly The specifics of the weapon tend to matter more at lower tiers, where feats tend to operate more closely to real-life equivalents rather than high fantasy.

What I'm getting at, basically-

If I swung, say, a baseball bat- for the sake of example, say, one I can swing at Mach 100, at some poor ordinary schmuck that I don't care for standing in front of me- what would happen if I were to swing? His head wouldn't simply just crack, or his back break as per the standard for blunt force weapons, as the principle upon which blunt force weapons don't cut through people the way bladed ones do is that they disperse this force over a much wider area- its still the same amount of energy (Joules) being transferred to the subject, just more evenly divided throughout.

On principle, if one were to vastly increase the amount of kinetic energy behind a swing (ex. by swinging at Mach 100), even with the blunt properties of the weapon distributing the force over a much wider area one would easily have more than enough kinetic energy relative to the amount of human body hit to replicate the effects of a very, very large bladed object, relative to his Normal Human durability.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You really haven't. You've simply repeated your points ad nauseam as if they were facts and expected me to agree simply because you think you are right.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Regis

Let me go ahead and spell something out for you. Safe assumptions MUST be made. Feats don't come with instruction manuals detailing the exact millimeter-perfect dimensions of an object or the specific material it is made out of. The statue is white rock. Pretty much means it's either granite or marble, both of which are nearly identical in density.

I'm getting so sick of you just constantly trying to nitpick everything possible just to waste everyone's time and give unnecessary headaches. We've given you the reasoning and everyone but you gets why it is applicable. I'm telling you right now, as a discussion moderator, stop this or I will be forced to report you.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Okay, that's fine with me, as I was curious about why you picked granite over other materials. Apart from that, I thought the calculation was fine.

It isn't nitpicking if there isn't much to nitpick in the first place. No one has given any reasonable arguments with proof, only circular arguments based on assumptions without any proof. Is it impossible to see my points and consider them?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

We've given you the reasons. You just refuse to accept them. No one else here has a qualm with it. This is basic stuff; if someone strong says "you are a worthy challenger" it obviously means they are in the same ballpark. A novice fencer is not worthy to be the rival of a master fencer, since this master will never have to try until the novice gets better.

So you either are assuming: Jax is an idiot and doesn't know what "worthy" means, or Jax is an idiot and has no idea how to gauge someone's strength.

Both of those are FAR more assumptive than saying "Jax is correct and isn't an idiot." Like I said, this is the last time I'm saying this. Drop it.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

You talk as if changing the content entirely to charcoal (fossil fuel), the lightest sedimentary rock type (unless you go specifically digging for rare rocks in some remote corner of the world just for the sake of some out-of-universe calc effort), would make a major difference. It would still make all of those knights multi-hundred tonners.


You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying even those hundred-tonner no-name knights are not notable enough to be known. Fiora is a Grand Duelist in a country of such men. Such men who have zero chance of beating her.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It doesn't mean anything of what you're saying as it is never specified what Jax means by 'worthy'. Remember that Jax was looking for people who could help him in the battle against the Void as said here:

'It would also make things more difficult for his opponents. And perhaps that was no bad thing. After all, a warrior worthy of fighting at his side in the battles against the monsters from beyond would need to be adaptable. He heard the clatter of armor and the whisper of a blade cutting air.'

He never thinks about any of the strength disparity between him and the soldiers, which is present in how he can manhandle them easily and further supported by his feat of beheading an Ascendant, and instead is disappointed by their lack of adaptability in combat and their lack of composure, in fact, he admires that they are very disciplined and skilled in weapons.

So on the whole, we have no idea what Jax's idea of worthy actually means, only that it involves a degree of strength and adaptability of which the soldiers have only demonstrated the former, and that Fiora is interesting to him because of reasons unknown. We never get to see the fight play out, Fiora by herself has no feats on that level (like say beheading an Ascendant, or a similarly powerful being) and all everyone else is saying is that we have to accept it as such because X says so. Upgrading a character based on assumptions without reasonable backing is very strange and doesn't seem very accurate.

As an additional question, how does feats of lifting strength play into attack potency of a character? It isn't really mentioned anywhere.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I'm just addressing the mistakened notion that everyone Fiora has shown to have fought must have been mook level. They weren't actually. You could even say that each of them were almost as strong as Guts from Berserker (whose AP came from the weight of the weapon he uses).

I'm fairly certain that at least some of those 30 or so duelists Fiora had to kill included the kind of knights shown in the cinematic (knight being one of the most common nobles and also martially most well-trained and most familiar with honorable duels). Because if there were such knights in Demacia, and they knew perfectly well that they were extremely strong, they would have at least given a thought to challenging Fiora so that they could bone her in case they win. At least some, yes.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Mook levels vary from franchise to franchise, so I'm not really worried about calling them mooks. I was just unclear on whether it's reasonable to assume that the suitors who've been killed by Fiora can carry out Garen's statue pulling feat, at least as easily as he can. That being said, after going back and reading over the stories, I can see why it's reasonable, so I've no real problems with adding this to her. My only question then is which other champions do we add this to?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Not necessarily Garen, those other knights who were weaker than Garen but were still able to pull the 400-ton statue as well at a slower pace. They are still hundred tonners, to whom at least some of Fiora's suitors would scale. All of whom were killed during duels.

If those knights were at the level they could challenge Fiora and expect to win, then one of them would have done so eventually. If you look at it intuitively from a social perspective, that's exactly the kind of thing that extremely strong knights would do (being able to marry into the family of a high-standing woman by beating her in combat. It's one of the most ideal marriage conditions that a knight could ever ask for in life, only that most women are not crazy enough to propose that). The reason Fiora is still unmarried is because such knights have failed.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yeah, that's what I came to conclude after rereading.

Forgive me going off-tangent for a bit, but Fiora's back story seems to imply that she was going to marry into the Crownguard family as it was their champion that Fiora's father attempted to drug in order to cheat and win. Wonder if it meant that she would have ended up married to Garen?

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Maybe. This, by the way, has pretty major implications for PROJECT combatants.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm what is under Trundle's arm in his splash art? Apparently some people think it's a human underneath, which would make Trundle big enough to crush people in one hand, increasing his size and his club's size. If it isn't a person, then can the hand at at the very left of the screen be used to scale him? I've got no idea on how to make perspective calculations.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I have another separate topic to ask as well. GGMF's EXO decribed Braum's shield as indestructible. The same suit that can destroy solar systems...

 

[RegisNex1232]

I dunno, that seems like a bit too much, since as far as we know, Ornn hasn't made anything near that level. Maybe it might hint at a new skin for Braum, in the same line as GGMF?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ornn made that shield

 

[Assaltwaffle]

It is absolutely a person under his hand. Good eye.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I meant including that shield. This is still a line from a skin for a completely different universe compared to normal Runeterra and scaling backwards seems odd to me. By scaling backwards I mean from skin verse -> normal Runeterra, since normally we go by scaling from normal Runeterra -> skin verse. Like we wouldn't necessarily apply Mecha Aatrox stats to normal Aatrox, so we shouldn't do the same here. I personally think it's referring to Braum's Unbreakable ability in game, and is meant to tell you that MF's ult can get blocked in game by Unbreakable. I also think it hints at a future skin for Braum in that line, but that's just me.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Ornn is said to be able to forge constructs out of Star Metal (in fact the only smith able to do so), like the Iceborn's 'unbreakable' bridge. Something that's implied to be extraterrestial in origin (like the metal included in ASol's jeweled crown?). He was able to keep the leftover star metal after the bridge's construction.

The Third Sister continued. "We come now to ask you one simple favor. The pit you dug is so deep and so wide that we cannot build even a single bridge across it. Teach me how to build a bridge that can never break, and I will do the work myself."

Ornn raised an eyebrow. He studied the Third Sister's eyes. He did not trust her, for she had a scent of magic about her, and magic always makes sturdy things weaker. "There are many able bridge builders. Go and bother them."

"The other builders cannot make a bridge with the type of stone we have," the Third Sister replied. "They claim it fell from the sky, and they cannot forge it for all their efforts." She then presented a chunk of star metal.

If you had seen the star metal, you would think it wise that only Ornn could possibly ever shape this material, for it was almost as stubborn and unyielding as him. Ornn agreed, but he would do the work alone, and required the star metal itself as payment.

This happened before he made the Vault Door that 'will last longer than the mountain it is on.'

 

[RegisNex1232]

The problem I see here is that we never know what he used to make the door, since the only time the star metal is mentioned is when, like you said, he made the bridge and his hammer, Hammer. It also feels a bit weird to scale a feat from a skin line to a champion's base, normally we tend to scale within the skinline alone (apart from some canon skins like Spirit Guard Udyr).

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ornn not only built it buy imbued it with his own power