League of Legends Discussion Thread 4

[RegisNex1232]

Except that the simplest interpretation isn't that they're equals at all, it is that he found her interesting enough to fight. The only ones engaging in mental gymnastics are you and Weekly as you keep relying on interpretations of unreliable and changeable statements, not any hard evidence or proof.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Worthy is enough evidence that their powers are at least not orders of magnitude apart, not that HERP DERP THEY ARE NOW 1:1 EQUAL. If Fiora's rating is two orders of magnitude lower than Jax's like it is right now then this (the current mental gymnastics that led to such a conclusion) is certainly the wrong method.

Even if Fiora is weaker than Jax by 7 or 9 times they should still belong in the same tier. If even there's that much gap between those two in the first place.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It would be more of an assumption to say Fiora ISNT equal to jax than to say she is

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Except that the simplest interpretation isn't that they're equals at all, it is that he found her interesting enough to fight. The only ones engaging in mental gymnastics are you and Weekly as you keep relying on interpretations of unreliable and changeable statements, not any hard evidence or proof.

The hard proof is Jax's statement, the only one without proof here is you

 

[RegisNex1232]

No it isn't, it is still an assumption that you're making based on the story. Nowhere is your interpretation supported in story.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes it is, if a character who killed a 7-B says another charcter is a worthy opponent, logic dictates that the opponent would be 7-B

 

[RegisNex1232]

Jax's statement isn't hard proof at all, it is just you assuming it to be so, without any logical reasoning. My proof is the lack of corroborating feats that Fiora should have to support her being scaled to Jax and once again, the unseen fight which we have no idea on how it ended.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

it is that he found her interesting enough to fight.

Yes, Fiora doesn't need to be 1:1 full equal of Jax in all aspects to be found interesting enough to fight, even if Jax would still beat her. Fiora only needs to not be entire OOM behind him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes it is, if a character who killed a 7-B says another charcter is a worthy opponent, logic dictates that the opponent would be 7-B

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

Well im gonna go sleep please dont apply any changes without me

 

[RegisNex1232]

Again with the assumptions. Finding someone interesting to fight has no real connections with them being in the same tier, that is just your assumption.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Where the **** in the story is it even implied that Jax is 500 times more powerful than Fiora like you suggest?

Fiora is not some bog standard mook who died by the dozens in each basic swing of a single god-warrior (each god-warrior able to wipe out hundreds of them alone, the magnitude of difference we are talking about). Where in the story was it ever implied that Fiora was the same case?

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Yes it is, if a character who killed a 7-B says another charcter is a worthy opponent, logic dictates that the opponent would be 7-B

(Looks at the thing to figure out what 7-B is)

Sooooo- does he have any current lore that puts him at 7-B?

Also why is everyone scaling to Skarl when in-game literally nobody can keep up with Skarl when he runs away and in-lore nobody has encountered him? He's 100% untouchable to every single champion.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

(Looks at the thing to figure out what 7-B is)

Sooooo- does he have any current lore that puts him at 7-B?

Beheading an Ascendant in the most recent lore

 

[RegisNex1232]

Where in the story is it implied that Fiora is in Jax's tier? You keep saying that she must be, without any proof. And comparing Fiora to be superior to the mooks is again an assumption based on Fiora being more notable, hence she must be stronger.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If a character who killed a 7-B says another charcter is a worthy opponent, logic dictates that the opponent would be 7-B

 

[Friendlysociopath]

(Looks at the thing to figure out what 7-B is)

Sooooo- does he have any current lore that puts him at 7-B?

Beheading an Ascendant in the most recent lore

Didn't that require a bunch of Icathian forces assisting him?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not to cut its head off no, they even explicitly said that Jax was the only one able to do it

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

> "Where in the story is it implied that Fiora is in Jax's tier?"

> "an opponent worth fighting!"

Fiora noted to be interesting enough to fight is already enough for the conclusion that she must at least not be entire OOM apart.

Ok so now Icathian rebels had tens of thousands of Fiora-tier fighters?

That kind of narrative mental gymnastics to suit a specific argument doesn't really make sense. Some things are just common sense (that Fiora is notable enough in a country that has several no-name bog standard knights who are 100-tonners themselves).

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Not to cut its head off no, they even explicitly said that Jax was the only one able to do it

That would be after the narrator said, "We had to topple half the mountain to put the big bastard down," Colgrim added. "And even then, only Saijax had a weapon big enough to take its head off."

Sounds like a group effort to me, but only Jax could deliver a blow that could decapitate it via having a large enough weapon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Argument for Fora Scaling to Jax: Fiora scales to Jax because he sees her as a worthy opponent after stomping 15 people consecutively and having fought and killed 7-B characters in the past.

The Argument against Fora Scaling to Jax: Fiora doesnt scale to Jax because we dont see the fight so we dont know if Jax knows what he's talking about.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The Argument for Fora Scaling to Jax: Fiora scales to Jax because he sees her as a worthy opponent after stomping 15 people consecutively and having fought and killed 7-B characters in the past.

The Argument against Fora Scaling to Jax: Fiora doesnt scale to Jax because we dont see the fight so we dont know if Jax knows what he's talking about.

Pretty much sums it up.

You forgot the part where you assume 'Worthy = as strong as me(Jax)' and that initial impressions trump lack of proof in order to make the case for scaling Fiora to Jax.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its not assuming anything, there's no reason to assume he's wrong

 

[Assaltwaffle]

How is this still going on. This is the exact. same. argument. unchanged every time. This isn't happening. Drop it. You can think you're right and we're wrong as much as you want, but you're wasting all of our time.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I repeat again, that Fiora won't necessarily need to be 'as strong as Jax' to scale. We simply have to prevent the event that she would be placed entire OOM apart.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It is clearly assuming that Jax thinks 'Worthy = Strong as me' and that Jax can't be mistaken in his initial impression of Fiora. Still no other evidence that she is that strong.

 

[RegisNex1232]

There's no evidence supporting or denying that she's even on his same tier, so why are you assuming that she is? Implications aren't evidence, feats are, and Fiora has nothing which justifies her being at Jax's tier.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

So your alternative suggestion is to continue to put Fiora and Jax entire OOM apart then?

 

[Friendlysociopath]

If a character who killed a 7-B says another charcter is a worthy opponent, logic dictates that the opponent would be 7-B

Logic also dictates that when you don't know something about a character, you admit it and don't proceed to make assumptions about them just to satisfy people who want numbers for fictional characters.

Jax in that same passage talks about being impressed by various things like Demacian descipline- does that mean the mook he was thrashing is 7-B? He impressed Jax after all.

No, because discipline has nothing to do with how powerful someone is. Likewise we have no idea what "worthy" means regarding Fiora and Jax. The only stat he talks about is Fiora's balance of all things.

In addition, Jax's 2-B feat (is that 2-B like Garen is 7-C?) was in his past and involved him having a massive weapon. Whether he would, or could, exhibit the same power without it is unknown.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Uh Jax's feat is 7B not 2B, @Friendly.

@Heinkel, if there's no evidence supporting them being in the same tier, then yes. After all, we don't rate profiles based on assumptions which have no proof.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Friendly Im not the one making assumptions here. Occam's razor, Jax says Fiora is a worthy opponent, therefore logic dictates she is comparable to him

Being impressed =/= viewing someone as an equal

It doesnt matter what he used to perform the feat as it was performed with physical AP

 

[RegisNex1232]

Occam's razor doesn't work like that, there are more assumptions to make that would place Fiora at Jax's tier then there are to not place here there.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

@Friendly Im not the one making assumptions here. Occam's razor, Jax says Fiora is a worthy opponent, therefore logic dictates she is comparable to him
Being impressed =/= viewing someone as an equal

It doesnt matter what he used to perform the feat as it was performed with physical AP

First of all, you have the same number of assumptions, Occam's razor does not do anything more for you than it does for him; if anything you have more assumptions because you're specifically pushing for Jax's words to have additional meaning.

Also that last bit makes no sense at all and is probably the weirdest thing I have ever heard. This might be my noob status talking but, the weapon he used has no bearing on the feats he accomplishes with it?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Occam's Razor dictates that the most obvious answer is the one that should be used. In this case, the most obvious answer is that Fiora is equal to Jax as he views her as a worthy opponent and rival.

 

[ThePerpetual]

...if you guys can't come to a consensus/demonstrate one side is objectively, absolutely wrong-

Tierings of "X, possibly Y" do in fact still exist to accomodate instances like these.

This has been a public service announcement! Disappearing again.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also that last bit makes no sense at all and is probably the weirdest thing I have ever heard. This might be my noob status talking but, the weapon he used has no bearing on the feats he accomplishes with it?

Yes, the weapon used has no bearing on his feat

 

[RegisNex1232]

Fine, there is no feats by Fiora that can match Jax's beheading of the Ascendant, as she has only fought Demacian nobles, all of whom are human and definitely not on the same tier as an Ascendant. Viewing Jax's words as supporting her being able to match Jax is wrong as it is again based on a very specific interpretation and assumption. Due to lack of any supporting evidence and a statement which has many interpretations, it is impossible to accurately say that Fiora is in Jax's tier.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

"likely" is actually more preferable than "possibly" in this instance, because we actually have very reasonable possibility the conlusion is correct, that some people just don't like it

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Regis That logic can be used to downgrade 95% of the characters on this site. Scaling exists for a reason and with that assanine agru8ment youre just flat out ignoring it

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I would like to point out again that Demacia has a bunch of no-name knights able to pull 400-ton statues around at walking pace who were still not notable enough to be known like Fiora.