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Kumagawa's All Fiction
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
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I still don't think Kumagawa's AF isn't more 4D than stuff like timestop or other time-manipulating abilities. It's not "High 3-A" or "Low 2-C" hax as it's not interacting with the time axis, so it logically stuff like power null or power mimicry wouldn't have a harder time copying it than time manipulation stuff. I don't think it's an outlier.
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- #83
Well it is not time manipulation, that's the issue. It's an ability that can erase time, but without being actual time manipulation. And no it doesn't guarantee a tier like High 3-A or Low 2-C. It is 4D but a tierless 4D.
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It cannot erase time though? He can only remove his own time to do stuff, which would only be catalogued as just good hax.
You cannot be 4D but not be High 3-A, as the definition of High 3-A also includes those with limited 4D powers, which, according to you, is what All Fiction is.
You cannot be 4D but not be High 3-A, as the definition of High 3-A also includes those with limited 4D powers, which, according to you, is what All Fiction is.
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- #86
No he was treating it the same as basic time hax. Which is not the case.
Also what's wrong with saying it twice?
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- #87
It can in a personal sense. It is still erasing time, the way he used it made it a pretty smart move, but doesn't change the fact.TriforcePower1 said:
That is both true and not true at the same time. Yes limited 4D would be High 3-A, but i think it does not guarantee a tier at all. That's what im saying. Causality Manip in itself isn't exactly an AP based ability therefore it wouldn't guarantee a tier. Basically the reason everyone agreed GER should lose his High 3-A key, but still keep it's 4D ability (because it's 4D, and it would be High 3-A, but the ability itself cannot be translated into AP, tiers are strictly for AP, which is why things like Fate Hax, Causality Hax, Probability Hax etc, do not have tiers. There is no profile in this wiki saying like "5-B via fate hax")
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- #90
The Outliers are just opinions though. There is nothing suggesting they are outliers or any reason why they should be outliers. Read my comment up above for a reason why they can't be dismissed as outliers:
And by the way. The reason I believe this is not an outlier is because outliers are usually 1 time things. A single feat that's disproved by everything else. In this case it's the basic mechanics of the ability, coupled with an explanation from a nigh Omniscient source and an example, then backed up by a LOT of things/feats in verse with literally no contradiction. Calling this an outlier would be calling literally most of the feats an ability has along with the mechanics of said ability "outliers". That's like calling the ability itself an outlier.
@Nedge. Another thing to note is that there are no contradictory feats or statements in the verse. So basically everything in the verse from explanation to feats, supports the 4D All Fiction, rather than disprove it.
And by the way. The reason I believe this is not an outlier is because outliers are usually 1 time things. A single feat that's disproved by everything else. In this case it's the basic mechanics of the ability, coupled with an explanation from a nigh Omniscient source and an example, then backed up by a LOT of things/feats in verse with literally no contradiction. Calling this an outlier would be calling literally most of the feats an ability has along with the mechanics of said ability "outliers". That's like calling the ability itself an outlier.
@Nedge. Another thing to note is that there are no contradictory feats or statements in the verse. So basically everything in the verse from explanation to feats, supports the 4D All Fiction, rather than disprove it.
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I don't see how this can be an outlier. Fire gave brief examples on how it isn't. All Fiction isn't showing the same outlierish examples DC and Marvel tend to have here and there.
All Fiction isn't showing one of those cases that involves the whole outlier concept. Also, Fire brings up a good example with the whole GER debate. I remeber the conversations about the character losing his 3-A tier but still kept its 4D ability aspect.
I'm in agreement with OP. I'm a little curious about the domino effect @Agnaa had mention above.
All Fiction isn't showing one of those cases that involves the whole outlier concept. Also, Fire brings up a good example with the whole GER debate. I remeber the conversations about the character losing his 3-A tier but still kept its 4D ability aspect.
I'm in agreement with OP. I'm a little curious about the domino effect @Agnaa had mention above.
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- #92
About that domino effect. It would scale to the potency of 4 abilities and resistances of minuses.
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Its also not really an outlier of resisting when the only thing they scale from resisting is 4D
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- #94
I believe those are 7 people in agreement counting Mr.Common Sense.
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If the precedence is a minor form of timeline Erasure like erasing someone from existence is 4-D Hax then some of Acausality like Type 3, 4, 5 and sometimes the others would give 4-D hax resistance from it.
I am pretty sure others some of reality warping related abilities would give 4-D Hax for the same reasons as well.
I am pretty sure others some of reality warping related abilities would give 4-D Hax for the same reasons as well.
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- #96
It would actually count as 4D hax. As you're erasing someone from the entire timeline. Which would be erasure on a 4D level, since the timeline no longer has that thing. In the 4th dimension you do not exist anymore.
Furthermore he can also erase his own time which just further proves the point.
Furthermore he can also erase his own time which just further proves the point.
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Wouldn't being able to erase all of existence imply all of time as well as further supporting evidence for 4d
Deleted member 2530
Guest
To be fair it could be a hyperbolePaul Frank said:
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- #99
All Fiction erasing the world would mean all of time yes, by mechanics. While yes that would be the case, that would warrant a Low 2-C key and i don't think we can do that off of a mere statement.
Conclusion:
Conclusion:
- We can say that it's suporting evidence as he's implying to be able to interact with the entire timeline (even Gagamaru says so).
- We cannot take it as fact and give a Low 2-C tier. Due to being fairly vague as the world can mean both universe and several universes (in Medaka's case). And even if it weren't as vague we cannot upgrade it off of a simple statement.
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Im throwing my support in for 4D All Fiction too.
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- #101
I believe that's 8 votes supporting the OP.
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- #103
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All Fiction is 4D erasure, but only in the way timetravel pardoxing stuff from existence is 4D erasure.
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- #105
Doesn't the fact that it also worked to erase time mean that it is 4D in more than just erasure?DontTalkDT said:
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It doesn't erase time. It can erase the time Kumagawa takes to actions creating pseudo-infinite speed. Kumagawa isn't King Crimson.
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- #107
It still erases time, though in a personal sense. Not in a universal sense, if it were like KC (universal erasure) All Fiction would be easily High 3-A if not Low 2-C, due to being in a personal sense, it doesn't gain a tier but it's 4D none the less.TriforcePower1 said:
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Not quite sure what you mean with "in more than just erasure", but that he can erase time makes minor 4-D erasure one legitimate interpretation, yes. What TriforcePower1 suggests is the second valid interpretation, in which it wouldn't have that.Firephoenixearl said:
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- #109
I meant as in. The fact that it can erase people on a 4D level and erase time (4D feat), doesn't that mean that the ability would be 4D, rather than just paradoxically 4D? Cus if it were only paradoxically 4D it wouldn't have worked on time, but it did.
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Depends on which interpretation.
If he actually deleted time itself, sure.
If he on the other hand "erased time" by undoing all actions between start and end of the battle (start and end not included), then it isn't 4-D erasure.
Given the mechanics of his ability the latter makes more sense, though on the other hand it is the less straight forward interpretation.
If he actually deleted time itself, sure.
If he on the other hand "erased time" by undoing all actions between start and end of the battle (start and end not included), then it isn't 4-D erasure.
Given the mechanics of his ability the latter makes more sense, though on the other hand it is the less straight forward interpretation.
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When he erased Zenkichi from the timeline did everything that had done to that point also turn to nothing?
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NopeEmperorRorepme said:
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No. Otherwise, Kumagawa and Shiranui wouldn't even fight as both would have immediately forgotten about him. The reason they were where they were is also partially a consequence of Zenkichi.EmperorRorepme said:
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- #114
Although your explanation does make sense (the 2nd one), it was actually stated that he turned time itself into nothing. So while yours does make sense, the ability would allow for the first option to be possible as well and given that our only statement includes all fiction being used on time, both could be just as valid.DontTalkDT said:
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So then...isn't that the main point for "4D Erasure". To erase something completely from space and time? Which he...didn't do?
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It is, which he wasn't shown to actually do, he just stated that he did. Apparently, that's enough around here . . .
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- #117
He did, by statements, explanations, mechanics, all of them. Though the time paradox is not a given for every verse. Authors can choose to disregard it. The fact that it didn't happen, just means the author disregards it as literally everything about the ability points towards that.EmperorRorepme said:
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So he was erased throughout all of time via statements...but he wasn't actually erased from all of time because not all his actions were.
But that doesn't matter because the author can choose that not to happen but he did it anyway.
Doesn't make much sense to me. I'll leave it at that.
But that doesn't matter because the author can choose that not to happen but he did it anyway.
Doesn't make much sense to me. I'll leave it at that.
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Actually, he do it, All Fiction by the definition gived by Ajimu and Kumagawa himself make "things never happened", but Ishio Ishin do not include the paradoxal effect of this attacks because of a coherent narration. plus all fiction already Erased Time.EmperorRorepme said:
I also agree with 4-D AF if it wasn't clear.
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Yeah I'm just leaving that first point. I don't have the time to go back and forth on a verse I know 0 about.
I mean he erased the time of his actions not all the whole axis of time. Erasing a portion of time is 4D now? I don't think that can be relied upon as an explanation. So the only point that should be accepted is the first one if accepted at all.
I mean he erased the time of his actions not all the whole axis of time. Erasing a portion of time is 4D now? I don't think that can be relied upon as an explanation. So the only point that should be accepted is the first one if accepted at all.
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