Kumagawa's All Fiction

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We both know that Kumagawa lies when there is something to gain from it, he doesn't lie without reason. He explicitly had something to gain from lieing to zenkichi about potentially restoring his sight, but he has nothing to gain about the weight he carries. Especially since he was building up and inhuman persona at the time

Ok? that just means they have good resistance. Also, I'm not sure Ice-Fire should get the same resistance since it isn't inate to the others

No, their combat might be equal, but the powers themselves are portrayed as something much greater. Sure some of the ones like Luliby is a bit less grand, but other than that they are portrayed as something of a greater scale

 

[Agnaa]

Of course he has reason to lie, he's trying to intimidate Naze and Zenkichi, he's trying to **** with their emotions, that's why he did both of those lies.

You're right that it means they have good resistance, I think that seems inconsistent.

I strongly disagree, most of them are roughly on the same level as a lot of skills and they clash with skills at a similar level. They never overpower skills through raw strength, they just have different uses.

 

[GLHF22]

So do we approve this based on mere statement? I trust feats more than statement

 

[Agnaa]

I have no issue with it just being from a statement.

 

[GLHF22]

I have no issue with it just being from a statement.

Yes im also agree, but if a statement contradict feats im prefer feats

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Of course he has reason to lie, he's trying to intimidate Naze and Zenkichi, he's trying to **** with their emotions, that's why he did both of those lies.
You're right that it means they have good resistance, I think that seems inconsistent.

I strongly disagree, most of them are roughly on the same level as a lot of skills and they clash with skills at a similar level. They never overpower skills through raw strength, they just have different uses.

When he is trying to build an unsympathetic persona, making a compelling point about carrying the weight of the world really wouldn't help, hence he has nothing to gain from lying about that.

In what way?

I never claimed they were stronger, just of a greater scale. I think you missunderstood. Neither Minus nor styles are about raw strength

 

[Agnaa]

You saw it as trying to make himself sympathetic because he's carrying the weight of the world, I saw it as him trying to rattle Naze/Zenkichi by boasting about how strong his ability is, and how he could **** everything over easily. Naze does fall silent after he mentions this. Also, if he's trying to build an unsympathetic persona and he's willing to lie to do that, why would he honestly say something that he knows makes him more sympathetic?

Because I don't think any of those abilities are portrayed as cosmic ones, or as being able to withstand cosmic ones.

I don't even know what you mean by a greater scale or superiority then. Many abnormalities cover pretty broad areas or have range comparable to styles.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know how to resolve the inconsistencies with the scale of other abilities. Sorry.

The problem with satirical metafiction is that it tends to be even more inconsistent than other stories, recurrently deliberately.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

May not be wise to upgrade them then if Agnaa is right.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so.

 

[Agnaa]

Misogi explains that part in the manga (i even went over it in the blog about all fiction). Things erased turn into fiction that's why it's called all fiction in the first place. They still exist, though just in memories.

Also, I think it's not really correct to imply that things erased by all fiction are literally turned into fiction. It's way more often described as turning things into nothing, and Mogura Kugurugi compares her ability to All Fiction, with how it can turn things into nothing.

But I do agree that AF not causing a time paradox isn't an issue. A lot of verses just work like this. If someone's erased from the past, the past already happened and doesn't rewrite itself, but if someone traveled back in time, the erased person wouldn't be there.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well when all is said and done. There are absolutely no contradictions to All Fiction being 4D. So if everyone agrees to this it can still be added. Agnaa's only problem was that he finds it a bit weird that All Fiction is so much above other skills, but given how it manipulates time and causality, a much bigger concept that simple corrosion, electricity, wounds etc, it only makes sense that it would seem much greater than other skills.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't find it weird that All Fiction and only All Fiction is so far above, but that 4 characters have abilities with 4-D potency and half a dozen more have resistance to 4-D power erasure.

If it was just All Fiction being 4-D with no knock-on effects I'd accept it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well, as we discussed it's not just random abilities that have it, but rather pretty important ones throughout the series. And the resistance in itself was a pretty big point in verse with it's own explanation.

It's not that they are gaining random upgrades from seemingly no feats.

 

[GLHF22]

Im still not sure AF can erase people from entire timeline

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It was explained and stated several times throughout the series along with having an explanation that gives the same effect going for it. That's pretty decent proof. Along with being based on an ability that does produce similar effects.

 

[GLHF22]

And, I mean, that still doesn't make much sense.

When he erased Zenkichi, for example, things were still pretty normal, they were at the same place, and other people didn't seem different. If Zenkichi never existed, the events of the manga would have gone very differently, just look at how he helped shape Medaka's personality.

He also erased Shiranui from people's memories, and their memories of her never having existed wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

The fact that statement contradict with feats?

 

[Agnaa]

It's not just random abilities, just every single ability that interacts with skills. No shit abilities that interact with skills scale and abilities that don't, don't. Most things in the verse get an explanation. It's "own explanation" was one panel. For a "pretty big point" it was only mentioned at all on about 4 pages of one chapter.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's really not a point. As we've been saying, it's pretty normal for authors to not count the time paradox in stories for simple writing consistency and time paradox is not assumed to be a standard for every verse unless there is something pointing to such.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not just random abilities, just every single ability that interacts with skills. No shit abilities that interact with skills scale and abilities that don't, don't. Most things in the verse get an explanation. It's "own explanation" was one panel. For a "pretty big point" it was only mentioned at all on about 4 pages of one chapter.

Yes, i don't see how that doesn't make it believable. Considering how skill based abilities work on every skill including All Fiction and have no contradiction or limit shown to them which would be broken by 4D All Fiction.

And yes, it was still treated as a pretty big thing that even all fiction which was treated as an almighty abilty in the arc was unable to erase a minus. Do not expect characters to be like "i just can't believe that did not happen" 100 chapters later for no reason. When it happened it was treated as important and even given it's own explanation, it never came up again, that doesn't make it unimportant.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, if eveyone is agree about 4-D All Fiction, what is even discussed now?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nothing really.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Ant disagrees now.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not that what I said makes it unbelievable, it's that what you stated doesn't make it more believable.

Almost everything gets brought up by the characters with surprise and is then explained. Even Zenkichi's mom cutting down some weeds.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He just said he doesn't know how to treat inconsistencies. But Agnaa himself said that "there are no actual inconsistencies", he just expressed his oppinion in a bad way.

 

[The_Causality]

Ant disagrees now.

Ant disagree because of Agnaa's reasons but Agnaa agree with 4-D AF, but no the scaling resistance of MB's caharcters.

I guess i'll just call him here again.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not that what I said makes it unbelievable, it's that what you stated doesn't make it more believable.
Almost everything gets brought up by the characters with surprise and is then explained. Even Zenkichi's mom cutting down some weeds.

Yes but the feats still triumph over simple "believeable or not believeable" when it's left to pure opinion. The fact that they worked stays, it's just a matter of opinion at that point and that is not enough to disprove the feats, everyone can have different opinions.

Cutting the weeds is literally just explaining her ability. This wasn't explaining a new ability. It was explaining why an ability such as all fiction couldn't turn a minus to never existent. I still do not see how a verse explaining other stuff makes it's explanations not important.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So the disagreements comes from the scaling that would result from AF being 4D?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes, though the desiagreements are not reliant on inconsistencies or contradictions. Just a matter of opinion.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes but the feats still triumph over simple "believeable or not believeable" when it's left to pure opinion. The fact that they worked stays, it's just a matter of opinion at that point and that is not enough to disprove the feats, everyone can have different opinions.

Cutting the weeds is literally just explaining her ability. This wasn't explaining a new ability. It was explaining why an ability such as all fiction couldn't turn a minus to never existent. I still do not see how a verse explaining other stuff makes it's explanations not important.

Yeah, it's pure matter of opinion on whether the stuff AF inevitably scales to being 4-D is an outlier or not. There is no objective way to decide outliers.

I'm not saying "The verse explains other stuff so explanations aren't important", but you're saying "Holy shit, the verse makes a big deal about this and explains it" like it's anything special. It's not, the verse does it for everything, OP or not, high-end or not.

 

[Agnaa]

So the disagreements comes from the scaling that would result from AF being 4D?

Yeah, on whether that scaling is an outlier or not.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well most people agree and there are absolutely no contradictions to All Fiction being 4D. There are just different opinions based on speculation and interpretation, none on fact. From an objective point of view this has been generally agreed upon.

Even agnaa admits that there are no contradictions to 4D All Fiction.

 

[The_Causality]

@Ant

• All Fiction is indeed 4-D
• Not sure about the Scaling to all Characters's resistance, Iihiko could probably scale tho

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I guess scaling the resistance can be disregarded as All Fiction's weakness. Same as how we do with The End and Styles, where it cannot copy due to mechanics and not weakness.

If everyone would feel like this option is better then i have no qualms about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If Agnaa is fine with the change, it should probably be fine then.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Ant could you open Misogi Kumagawa's profile for a moment then? Just tweaking the wording so that it generally implies it's 4D should be fine, I can handle that.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not "fine with the change", I've told this to you at least half a dozen times over Discord. Your description of my position was done in really bad faith.

I don't think there's any inherent contradictions with it being 4D, but I think it's an outlier. However, my standards on "outliers" are much stricter than most on the wiki, so others may reasonably disagree.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'm not "fine with the change", I've told this to you at least half a dozen times over Discord. Your description of my position was done in really bad faith.
I don't think there's any inherent contradictions with it being 4D, but I think it's an outlier. However, my standards on "outliers" are much stricter than most on the wiki, so others may reasonably disagree.

^^

I gave the wrong idea earlier. I meant to say that there are no counter arguments or contradictions from the series, but Agnaa does have a different opinion on the outlier thing.

So all in all while the feats all support the change, Agnaa does believe that this may be an outlier. There are i believe 6 people including me that do think that it is not an outlier however.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok so the votes are 6 - 2(?).

And by the way. The reason I believe this is not an outlier is because outliers are usually 1 time things. A single feat that's disproved by everything else. In this case it's the basic mechanics of the ability, coupled with an explanation from a nigh Omniscient source and an example, then backed up by a LOT of things/feats in verse with literally no contradiction. Calling this an outlier would be calling literally most of the feats an ability has along with the mechanics of said ability "outliers". That's like calling the ability itself an outlier.