KT's Adventure Time Revisions Part 12.5: Multiversal Multigoonal

[Zabazab]

Also, Simon states he (as Ice King) can fend off The Scarab, while Winter King outright does so with zero effort (assuming Scarab is on the 2-A level due to being a God Auditor).

There's also a statement from the F&C crew that after WK crazified Peebles, he had to seal The Lich in ice since the Candy Kingdom wasn't fit no more, but this is just a crew statement and can't be proven in the show.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

HOOOOLLYYY PEAAAAAAAAK

Agreed

 

[Damage3245]

Addressing seven feats simultaneously is just going to lead to Walls of Text responses to each other so I'll focus on the feats one at a time.

So Farmworld Finn was capable of bodying the multiverse alongside the Enchiridion.
Now with just words you can say "huhhh we don't know what would actually happen muahahaha" whatever.
We see in the actual scene that the multiverse's universes just pop, signifying them being destroyed.

I do not think that this is as simple as 2-A AP for either Farmworld Finn or the Enchiridion.

It's not just that we don't know what will happen, Prismo himself says "We literally do not know what will happen if he succeeds but it could defs be catastrophic to the architecture of these realities."

What Prismo is showing them seems to be just a "What If..." scenario showing what could happen, not necessarily what will happen. And this isn't the product of an attack on the part of Farmworld Finn; in the visual being shown, Farmworld Finn is shown to be surprised by what is happening. Going by Prismo's statement, the damage to the "architecture of these realities" it just a possible outcome of the opening of a portal to the Multiverse. Farmworld Finn did succeed in opening a portal and so far as we're aware, no Universes were destroyed as a result of this.

At best this seems to be Possible Environmental Destruction as a consequence of using the Enchiridion to open a portal to the Multiverse; and it is not depicted as an AP feat for Farmworld Finn or a result from Famrworld Finn's own powers or abilities.

 

[KingTempest]

So it scales to the Enchiridion. Okay

 

[Damage3245]

Now the actual scaling chain to tie this into the regular scaling. Bold are people with feats of 2-A, italicized are people with direct immediate scaling to 2-A.

This is just a minor side-note but because the scaling chain is in a spoiler text, all of the text is italicized. Maybe change the latter part of that to underlining.

 

[KingTempest]

Damn

 

[KingTempest]

Added the dream feats and one more of the black hole one from that other thread

Finn The Human 2C upgrade

Finn created a black hole beyond space and time, for this reason it is considered as a low multiverse level feat, this black hole is considered as 4 dimensional, this dimension scope is 4D, the black hole he created goes beyond space and time gives him a 2C feat."Everything little is a little...

vsbattles.com

Yo @Godernet @Dalesean027 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Js250476
Would Finn's imaginary prosthetic arm scale to his imagination and dream powers based on the UES aspect of the Cosmic Imagination?

 

[Galvino]

I doubt this 2-A meta is author intent, at least for people like Finn and people of similar strength, but there does seem to be a lot of support from feats.

 

[Damage3245]

Addressing the next feat:

Clock Titans​

Prismo The Wishmaster, F&CE4
They manipulate the passage of time by beating on each other.

Creating "time waves" that propogate throughout the Multiverse by hitting each other... Is this something we can really quantify as Mutliversal+ Attack Potency?

Or is it just an unusual form of Time Manipulation on a Multiversal+ scale?

These Clock Titans have no feats of actually using their attacks on anything else other than each other, so we can't know how destructive they would be if directed against anything else like another character, a world, a Universe, etc.

In order to qualify for 2-A AP these Clock Titans either have to be creating, destroying or "significantly affecting" the infinite Universes of the Adventure Time Multiverse. "Significantly affecting" here being "warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one".

The only one I could possibly see these time waves being here is "sustaining its existence with energy" but I don't believe this truly qualifies as the time waves aren't sustaining the Universes themselves but just allowing for the flow of time. We don't have any reason to believe the Universes would cease to exist without them. I'm not in support with the Clock Titans being treated as having 2-A AP or Durability because of that.

 

[KingTempest]

Addressing the next feat:



Creating "time waves" that propogate throughout the Multiverse by hitting each other... Is this something we can really quantify as Mutliversal+ Attack Potency?

Or is it just an unusual form of Time Manipulation on a Multiversal+ scale?

These Clock Titans have no feats of actually using their attacks on anything else other than each other, so we can't know how destructive they would be if directed against anything else like another character, a world, a Universe, etc.

In order to qualify for 2-A AP these Clock Titans either have to be creating, destroying or "significantly affecting" the infinite Universes of the Adventure Time Multiverse. "Significantly affecting" here being "warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one".

The only one I could possibly see these time waves being here is "sustaining its existence with energy" but I don't believe this truly qualifies as the time waves aren't sustaining the Universes themselves but just allowing for the flow of time. We don't have any reason to believe the Universes would cease to exist without them. I'm not in support with the Clock Titans being treated as having 2-A AP or Durability because of that.

They are the reason the universes are even capable of moving. Warping or distorting would count, as they’re the reason why the multiverse is capable of even working, and without them it’s just be a stagnant space

 

[Damage3245]

They are the reason the universes are even capable of moving. Warping or distorting would count, as they’re the reason why the multiverse is capable of even working, and without them it’s just be a stagnant space

I'm not a Tier 2 expert, but I don't think that just causing time to happen would be an AP feat. To me, it'd be like considering Time Stop to be a Tier 3 AP feat because it's affecting the time of an entire Universe. Unfortunatley the tiering system isn't super-specific on what "warping" or "distorting" would mean in this instance but I think it'd have to do more than just affect/cause/stop time.

Maybe other staff members can chime in this part. I've got to head off for now.

 

[Aolphl]

There's nothing I can refuse here. I agree with the upgrades.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, Simon states he (as Ice King) can fend off The Scarab, while Winter King outright does so with zero effort (assuming Scarab is on the 2-A level due to being a God Auditor).

You know where this is from?

Edit: Nevermind

Simon: As Ice King, I'll be powerful enough to fend off this scarab person who's after us. I'll be immortal, so your universe will last forever instead of dying with me. And finally, I'll be magic again, ergo magic will be restored to your world, just like you want.

 

[Zabazab]

Normally I'd consider the Clock Titans' feat as just hax + range, but the waves they send out are clearly the result of them striking eachother, and the time waves are experienced as time passing for the entire multiverse. They aren't just manipulating time, they're the source of it for the multiverse.

Prismo: That's the Time Core. I don't think they're actually alive. Maybe? They send time waves throughout the multiverse that are experienced as the passage of time.

Scarab: So majestic. Trillions of waves of time spreading across creation in a mighty gush.
Prismo: Eh, the colors give me a headache.

You know where this is from?

The first few minutes of Episode 5 and 6 of F&C respectively:

Simon: If you think about it, it's the perfect solution. As Ice King, I'll be powerful enough to fend off this scarab person who's after us. I'll be immortal, so your universe will last forever instead of dying with me. And finally, I'll be magic again, ergo magic will be restored to your world, just like you want.

Winter King: (Laughs) Worry not, friends. You're safe now. The rascal is frozen inside my inescapable magic ice.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don’t really see the problem with Tier 5 to 2 Finn

Finn literally jumps into a black hole and is fine, so that can be the main form of scaling. Finn survives the nuking of a deadworld. Finn messes up Orgalorg, who is the breaker of worlds and existed before time was even a thing. Finn is stronger than Farmworld Finn, who can hurt the Scarab. And that Scarab broke Prismo, is a cosmic entity, and survived attacks from GOLBetty. I also still don’t agree characters like the Lich, Orgalorg, and Hunson are weaker than a random planet destroying robot. FP can nuke the planet at her peak, then she gets a true elemental form that also has that power, and Finn can fight her. Finn also regularly bullies the Ice King, who can freeze the Earth.

Like I don’t see the outlier here… Adventure Time is a goofy ass verse where Humans can tank black holes and fight primordial Gods… Like Finn would scale to whatever rating tanking a Black Hole gives you

 

[CloverDragon03]

They are the reason the universes are even capable of moving. Warping or distorting would count, as they’re the reason why the multiverse is capable of even working, and without them it’s just be a stagnant space

This seems like it falls under "significantly affecting" to me

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Haven't seen any convincing counterpoints thus far, agree with everything FRA.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You mad man, this seems reasonable, but I haven’t look through the proposal yet so keep me at neutral till I can look through the evidence (The 2A cosmology I will agreed on, however, as there should been sufficient evidence on that)

 

[Damage3245]

Finn literally jumps into a black hole and is fine, so that can be the main form of scaling.

This is the same version of Finn who got his legs broken by a deer, with said deer being harmed and knocked unconscious by having a brick dropped on his head.

And that's just one instance of Finn being harmed. If you only go by the highest possible interpretation and use the black hole feat, you'd have to ignore every single case of Finn being harmed in the first five seasons.

 

[KingTempest]

tier 2 deer

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'll take a look at this when I can.

 

[E6pire]

I don't see a problem with the scales and I strongly agree.

 

[zaraus]

I'm following for now

 

[Damage3245]

Darren's Potential Power​

Something Big, S6E10

Darren: I promise, as well, to deliver destruction so thorough that all realities are affected.
Maja: Okay. We'll talk about that.
Darren: All realities.

Darren states that he can deliver destruction so thorough that every reality is affected.

Addressing the Darren feat next, there is unfortunately very little context given for what Darren means by "all realities are affected" by the destruction he will deliver on the Candy Kingdom.

In order for this to be 2-A, he'd have to be affecting the entire structure of each Universe which is something I don't think there is any evidence for at this time. A reality being "affected" is not the same thing as the entirety of that reality being damaged, warped, distorted, etc.

I believe this is actually supported by Darren's threat to Princess Bubblegum:

The support to this is in the same episode with the statement below

Darren: It's over, Princess. Prepare to be annihilated across all dimensions.

And when he says this, he powers up an energy beam.
Showing that Darren scales to this.

Darren claims to be able to destroy Princess Bubblegum across all dimensions. But this isn't a 2-A AP feat, this is a Multiversal+ range feat. Destroying Princess Bubblegum across every reality would not be a 2-A feat.

So this connects to his previous statement I believe where he mentions all realities will be affected. If the Candy Kingdom or Princess Bubblegum was erased from every reality, then "every reality" has been affected by the destruction he's caused, without his AP being 2-A.

 

[KingTempest]

Addressing the Darren feat next, there is unfortunately very little context given for what Darren means by "all realities are affected" by the destruction he will deliver on the Candy Kingdom.

In order for this to be 2-A, he'd have to be affecting the entire structure of each Universe which is something I don't think there is any evidence for at this time. A reality being "affected" is not the same thing as the entirety of that reality being damaged, warped, distorted, etc.

This is just lame scrutiny. We don't need to have evidence of. If he says he can affect reality, he can affect reality.

He says he'll deliver destruction so thorough that all realities are affected. The destruction he'll leave with affect all realities.

You don't need a google doc of all his specific powers and methods of destruction in order to say "yayyy I think this is good enough to fully mean reality"

I believe this is actually supported by Darren's threat to Princess Bubblegum:



Darren claims to be able to destroy Princess Bubblegum across all dimensions. But this isn't a 2-A AP feat, this is a Multiversal+ range feat. Destroying Princess Bubblegum across every reality would not be a 2-A feat.

So this connects to his previous statement I believe where he mentions all realities will be affected. If the Candy Kingdom or Princess Bubblegum was erased from every reality, then "every reality" has been affected by the destruction he's caused, without his AP being 2-A.

Nobody said destroying Bubblegum is a 2-A feat. It's support he knows about the other dimensions in the world and support he's capable of affecting them with an energy blast

This isn't a good debunk. Darren has the range to affect all realities and he blatantly says he can affect reality.

I spoke offsite. At the least this would be Low 2-C with 2-A environmental destruction. Saying "I'll leave destruction that will affect all realities" is "too vague" or "lacking context" is just saying "I don't like it"

 

[Planck69]

Agree with KingTempest. A lot of these issues with the statements come of as needless pedantry.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Will the changes be applied after 48 hours?

 

[Damage3245]

Agree with KingTempest. A lot of these issues with the statements come of as needless pedantry.

When we're getting into Tier upgrades as high as 2-A, I think that vague statements aren't necessarily the most reliable. Fair enough if you think I'm being pedantic but I feel like someone has to look at these with some scrutiny.

This is just lame scrutiny. We don't need to have evidence of. If he says he can affect reality, he can affect reality.

He says he'll deliver destruction so thorough that all realities are affected. The destruction he'll leave with affect all realities.

You don't need a google doc of all his specific powers and methods of destruction in order to say "yayyy I think this is good enough to fully mean reality"

Affect them how though? Our Tiering System page specifies that the "affecting" needs to be on a scale comparable to creating or destroying the whole of reality.

Nobody said destroying Bubblegum is a 2-A feat. It's support he knows about the other dimensions in the world and support he's capable of affecting them with an energy blast

This isn't a good debunk. Darren has the range to affect all realities and he blatantly says he can affect reality.

I spoke offsite. At the least this would be Low 2-C with 2-A environmental destruction. Saying "I'll leave destruction that will affect all realities" is "too vague" or "lacking context" is just saying "I don't like it"

I said that it's more of a range feat than an AP feat. I'm not trying to debunk the statements, but pointing out that they aren't necessarily indicative of 2-A AP.

I wouldn't say that believing something is too vague to be used is the same as "I don't like it."

 

[Damage3245]

Will the changes be applied after 48 hours?

We currently have 3 votes in agree and 1 in disagree, and the discussions are ongoing.

 

[Aolphl]

I agree with KingTempest. It's quite simple. There are no other situations that can affect the scaling.

 

[KingTempest]

When we're getting into Tier upgrades as high as 2-A, I think that vague statements aren't necessarily the most reliable. Fair enough if you think I'm being pedantic but I feel like someone has to look at these with some scrutiny.

These aren't vague statements. This is saying dude can affect reality, and we see he can affect all of em.

Affect them how though? Our Tiering System page specifies that the "affecting" needs to be on a scale comparable to creating or destroying the whole of reality.

"I'm going to affect reality" sounds like "it's gonna be on the scale of affecting reality"

I said that it's more of a range feat than an AP feat. I'm not trying to debunk the statements, but pointing out that they aren't necessarily indicative of 2-A AP.

Ok.
So like I said.
"I spoke offsite. At the least this would be Low 2-C with 2-A environmental destruction."

 

[Damage3245]

These aren't vague statements. This is saying dude can affect reality, and we see he can affect all of em.

"I'm going to affect reality" sounds like "it's gonna be on the scale of affecting reality"

Once again though, here is what our tiering system says:

"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.

It's not enough for a character to just say they're going to "affect" other realities when we don't have any confirmation for what that means. Is the entirety of the structure of every Universe in the Multiverse going to be warped or distorted?

This isn't me being needlessly pedantic; in order for feats / statements to considered at this level, we need confirmation of what is happening, not just speculation.

Ok.
So like I said.
"I spoke offsite. At the least this would be Low 2-C with 2-A environmental destruction."

Okay? I don't know who you spoke offsite with.

 

[Planck69]

Once again though, here is what our tiering system says:

....what was the point of quoting this? We do allow tiers for significantly affecting a structure. And that's verbatim what's being stated here. It's not even a meandering statement either, it's as straightforward as they come.

 

[Damage3245]

....what was the point of quoting this? We do allow tiers for significantly affecting a structure. And that's verbatim what's being stated here. It's not even a meandering statement either, it's as straightforward as they come.

That's precisely why I quoted it.

I don't think we have enough context to say that Darren is affecting the entirety of the structure of these realities.

 

[KingTempest]

Once again though, here is what our tiering system says:

It's not enough for a character to just say they're going to "affect" other realities when we don't have any confirmation for what that means. Is the entirety of the structure of every Universe in the Multiverse going to be warped or distorted?

This isn't me being needlessly pedantic; in order for feats / statements to considered at this level, we need confirmation of what is happening, not just speculation.

Saying you're gong to affect reality with destruction very thorough with no showing of hax would mean something akin to "affect reality"

You're asking for proof he's going to significantly affect reality. He said he's going to deal destruction so thorough that it'll affect it.
Idk if he's going to turn it into a different shape or turn it into a big crunch but he said he's going to affect it via destruction.

That is grounds for scaling.

And yes. It is enough to say that

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, I think I agree with KT and Planck here...

 

[Planck69]

That's precisely why I quoted it.

I don't think we have enough context to say that Darren is affecting the entirety of the structure of these realities.

What does that distinction mean here though? Like genuinely, what do you think "all realities are affected" means in this instance? He's specifically talking about this in the context of causing destruction and we don't have many other supported assumptions as to what he'd mean.

 

[Damage3245]

What does that distinction mean here though? Like genuinely, what do you think "all realities are affected" means in this instance? He's specifically talking about this in the context of causing destruction and we don't have many other supported assumptions as to what he'd mean.

That's why I brought up the second quote from him, where he states that he will obliterate Princess Bubblegum in every dimension.

My reading of the situation is that Darren has Multiversal+ range; if he destroys Princess Bubblegum in the Ooo Universe, then his attack will reach out throughout the Multiverse and destroy Princess Bubblegum in every reality.

Every reality is "affected" by his attack without him actually doing anything to damage space-time or the structure of the Universes.

Like, the word "affect" that we use in our Tiering System has somewhat specific definitions in that section that I quoted. It means specific scenarios such as distorting the whole structure of a Universe, sustaining it with energy, merging it, etc. If what Darren is doing isn't proven to be one of those examples, I'm not going to just trust the assumption on blind faith.

 

[Planck69]

The thing is, we have confirmation of magic specifically being on the scale of the multiverse as a whole from the other statements. So there we have the statement, a range confirmation, and consistency of scale for said statement when compared to similar fears in the setting.

So in my view, the statement in the context of the overall verse is enough to be used as a 2-A statement.

 

[KingTempest]

Every reality is "affected" by his attack without him actually doing anything to damage space-time or the structure of the Universes.

You're basically saying I'm affecting the universe by stepping to the right because now I'm displacing my position in the universe and that can count as me "affecting reality" no matter how insignificant