Kirby revisions: Everything coming full circle

[Eseseso]

Switching to Neutral on the KE thing for Clover's reasoning.

 

[Winter]

Zero has no reason to not use his full power against Kirby, nor is it ever noted that this shrunken state actually decreases his power, so it can't be assumed that he wouldn't remain 5-A

This was already refuted. The whole reason his 5-A is there is because he was in a larger sized state

 

[Winter]

Switching to Neutral on the KE thing for Clover's reasoning.

How do you feel about the Magolor Spin?

 

[CloverDragon03]

This was already refuted. The whole reason his 5-A is there is because he was in a larger sized state

That doesn't refute anything. If he uses anything less than this, he's holding back against Kirby, since he is capable of accessing 5-A levels of power. There's no reason for him to hold back when Kirby's the sole thing in his way of achieving his goals. It's also equally possible, as I've said before, that the 5-A levels of power can simply be condensed into a smaller state. Believe it or not, that's not an impossibility.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The issue with this is that it’s spatial manipulation. It distorts the area around the black hole. This brings up the question on whether it was affecting a local or interstellar area. Spatial distortions make it feel iffy as if space were distorted, distance can’t be accounted for as light would bend from the distortions. Then again, it could simply just be everything spinning. No way to tell since either side could be proven by the same feat. Given how it’s assumed everything is spinning, I’m leaning towards a more local area. Proof can’t be solidified that everything is being spun, especially with the anti feat I presented.

Not denying it can be a LS feat but given what I said, I feel neutral about the LS.

My take on this is that it was affecting an interstellar area since the stars in the background appear to spin as well

 

[Eseseso]

How do you feel about the Magolor Spin?

Honestly I agree with removing Multi-Stellar LS, since it seems like Spatial hax.

We can replace it with Stellar since Dedede physically stole all the Stars in the sky IIRC, and it's implied that Kirby returned them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't really mind removing the Multi-Stellar LS if necessary, though I do think it's worth noting that for the Star Allies onwards key, I did calculate a Multi-Stellar feat for Fecto Elfilis

Edit: Never mind, it's Stellar. Dammit

 

[Winter]

That doesn't refute anything. If he uses anything less than this, he's holding back against Kirby, since he is capable of accessing 5-A levels of power. There's no reason for him to hold back when Kirby's the sole thing in his way of achieving his goals. It's also equally possible, as I've said before, that the 5-A levels of power can simply be condensed into a smaller state. Believe it or not, that's not an impossibility.

I mean, it does. In the calc, mass is found by multiplying density and volume. Him being in that larger state would obviously greatly alter the volume, and would also change the numbers drastically. The Zero calc is for KE. His size is the critical factor in the KE rating. Power can’t be condensed because KE is caused by mass and velocity.

Get my point? Him having a lower mass would annihilate any rating the calc had and would only be applicable in any circumstance if he were invading or an ooc matchup.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, it does. In the calc, mass is found by multiplying density and volume. Him being in that larger state would obviously greatly alter the volume, and would also change the numbers drastically. The Zero calc is for KE. His size is the critical factor in the KE rating. Power can’t be condensed because KE is caused by mass and velocity.

Get my point? Him having a lower mass would annihilate any rating the calc had and would only be applicable in any circumstance if he were invading or an ooc matchup.

The problem here is that you're trying to apply real world mechanics a little too much. Power can be condensed that way if the situation calls for it, especially when it's a fictional world. You're treating the calc being for KE as the be-all end-all, and that's the main problem here. Since Zero is holding nothing back against Kirby, it's safe to assume he's using that 5-A level of power because anything less would be holding back which would be out of character.

 

[Winter]

I don't really mind removing the Multi-Stellar LS if necessary, though I do think it's worth noting that for the Star Allies onwards key, I did calculate a Multi-Stellar feat for Fecto Elfilis

Edit: Never mind, it's Stellar. Dammit

I was about to mention the Elfilis calc. Sadly only applicable to post Star Allies.

We can replace it with Stellar since Dedede physically stole all the Stars in the sky IIRC, and it's implied that Kirby returned them.

Idk why, didn’t someone dismiss it as cap for “not being real stars”

Correct me if I’m wrong. If not, stellar looks fine to apply to earlier keys. Most characters severely lack in LS anyways so Kirby still has a pretty hefty advantage via that

 

[Winter]

The problem here is that you're trying to apply real world mechanics a little too much. Power can be condensed that way if the situation calls for it, especially when it's a fictional world. You're treating the calc being for KE as the be-all end-all, and that's the main problem here. Since Zero is holding nothing back against Kirby, it's safe to assume he's using that 5-A level of power because anything less would be holding back which would be out of character.

I’m not being that excessive. It being fictional doesn’t dismiss any physics applicable. It’s like saying Bill is physically 4-A in his smaller size because physics can’t always be applied to fiction. Back to Zero, your basically saying 5-A KE applies to a 2 meter eye ball because physics don’t always apply to fiction. KE is a pretty basic physics concept that can apply to basically anything with mass and velocity. There are things that do and do not defy laws of physics in fiction. This does not.

Him going all out doesn’t mean he scales to his size increased self. It’s a character thing. He doesn’t increase size in combat but he’ll do it otherwise, like when invading planets for example. Really nothing that supports him scaling to a higher physical rating that only applies to a size increased state.

 

[Winter]

Is there a rule that restricts regular members from pinging moderators? I wanted to ask Efficiente on how he feels on what’s presented but I forgor if there was a rule or not

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m not being that excessive. It being fictional doesn’t dismiss any physics applicable. It’s like saying Bill is physically 4-A in his smaller size because physics can’t always be applied to fiction. Back to Zero, your basically saying 5-A KE applies to a 2 meter eye ball because physics don’t always apply to fiction. KE is a pretty basic physics concept that can apply to basically anything with mass and velocity. There are things that do and do not defy laws of physics in fiction. This does not.

Him going all out doesn’t mean he scales to his size increased self. It’s a character thing. He doesn’t increase size in combat but he’ll do it otherwise, like when invading planets for example. Really nothing that supports him scaling to a higher physical rating that only applies to a size increased state.

Except... I think you are being excessive with this. The point is that if Zero has all the power available to him and he's going all-out to ensure Kirby doesn't foil his plans, he would use that 5-A level of energy. You also need to factor in Game Mechanics, because Zero could not be shown at a massive size during your fight with him, otherwise Kirby would appear far too small to be properly visible.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also I did this. Way worse than I expected

 

[Eseseso]

Also I did this. Way worse than I expected

UGH!

RIP 5-A Kirby!

(The calc was fine, thank you, @CloverDragon03)

 

[aktrguser]

Also I did this. Way worse than I expected

Sorry but... Can you edit it??

https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-need-to-upgrade-two-characters-to-7-b.143302/


Pls respond

 

[Winter]

Except... I think you are being excessive with this. The point is that if Zero has all the power available to him and he's going all-out to ensure Kirby doesn't foil his plans, he would use that 5-A level of energy. You also need to factor in Game Mechanics, because Zero could not be shown at a massive size during your fight with him, otherwise Kirby would appear far too small to be properly visible.

Well yea, but this doesn’t take into account several in-character and out of character things. In his boss fight, he just hustles in because he didn’t have much prep time to tactically do anything. This also accounts for powers. Like I have said, his larger state isn’t used in combat.

That wouldn’t be a game mechanic. You literally just fight him. The game shows him at a smaller size. Nothing implies him to be larger. If he were, rip Hyper Zone, it’s all just one eye.

I have made several explanations on why Zero wouldn’t be 5-A in a smaller size. You just keep repeating the same point that “he isn’t holding back so he would use this strength”

Not factoring in anything from the KE calc whatsoever. Let’s look at it this way. Say you can grow to a atmospheric size and can destroy planets by dashing into it since your bigger, thus higher KE. In a smaller size, where you’re a regular human. If you were in a big fight with some human and didn’t hold back, would you still be capable of demolishing the planet by moving into concrete or whatever surface you slam into?

 

[Winter]

Also I did this. Way worse than I expected

Rip. You think SSU would have better results instead of regular SS?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well yea, but this doesn’t take into account several in-character and out of character things. In his boss fight, he just hustles in because he didn’t have much prep time to tactically do anything. This also accounts for powers. Like I have said, his larger state isn’t used in combat.

Naturally, a state that is meant for combat would be superior to one that is used for combat then, right? That would just, by basic power scaling, make the Zero that fought Kirby 5-A

That wouldn’t be a game mechanic. You literally just fight him. The game shows him at a smaller size. Nothing implies him to be larger. If he were, rip Hyper Zone, it’s all just one eye.

RIP Hyper Zone

Quite literally why it's just Game Mechanics

I have made several explanations on why Zero wouldn’t be 5-A in a smaller size. You just keep repeating the same point that “he isn’t holding back so he would use this strength”

"Several explanations" is an interesting way to phrase the fact that you just keep repeating the same thing about "but the KE calc" while not accounting for the fact that it logically makes zero sense for Zero to not utilize all the power he has at his disposal. Condensing large size power into a smaller form is not a foreign concept in fictional media. And you also have no in-universe indication of the Zero that fought Kirby being weaker than his initial size.

Not factoring in anything from the KE calc whatsoever. Let’s look at it this way. Say you can grow to a atmospheric size and can destroy planets by dashing into it since your bigger, thus higher KE. In a smaller size, where you’re a regular human. If you were in a big fight with some human and didn’t hold back, would you still be capable of demolishing the planet by moving into concrete or whatever surface you slam into?

Again conflating the real world with a fictional setting where the laws of physics are able to be bent a little depending on the context of the situation. And this is 100% a situation where there's room for leeway.

Rip. You think SSU would have better results instead of regular SS?

Not sure. It'd probably be about the same if I had to guess

 

[Eseseso]

What about calcing the Dark Matter Cloud exploding in Dreamland 3? That thing was planet-sized.

Or Miracle Matter's explosion?

Or Dark Star's Explosion?

Jesus, WHY DOES KIRBY HAVE SO MANY PLANET SIZED EXPLOSIONS?

 

[Eseseso]

Also:

1. Btw, in nearly all Kirby vs threads on this site, people talk about Kirby's supposedly insane hax. Asides from transmutating people into food or objects and Ghost Kirby making him hard to kill, what impressive "hax" does he have?

2. I kinda found a feat for Marx Soul that, if valid, ranges from 4-A to 3-B, as in it has one 4-A end, one 3-C end, and two 3-B ends

 

[Arceus0x]

Also:

1. Btw, in nearly all Kirby vs threads on this site, people talk about Kirby's supposedly insane hax. Asides from transmutating people into food or objects and Ghost Kirby making him hard to kill, what impressive "hax" does he have?

immobilization+transmutation with cook kirby, time manipulation with time crash, poison manipulation, attack reflection i guess? these are the ones i remembered off the top of my head. He also has mind manipulation and morality manipulation via friend hearts and absorbing.

2. I kinda found a feat for Marx Soul that, if valid, ranges from 4-A to 3-B, as in it has one 4-A end, one 3-C end, and two 3-B ends

i see nothing that suggests those are nebulae

 

[Eficiente]

Honestly I agree with removing Multi-Stellar LS, since it seems like Spatial hax.

We can replace it with Stellar since Dedede physically stole all the Stars in the sky IIRC, and it's implied that Kirby returned them.

There is no reason to say it's only that when it's 2 things, at least one of them being a force going up against you in a way that needs to be countered with your own force.

I said this many times, those are not real stars, those were around the size of DDD. We could see them, you can wander around pages in the Kirby wiki to see this.

Also I did this. Way worse than I expected

So, I don't think this calc itself scales to Kirby, as the machine likely blew up on its own components due to the damage, like a movie car. But how much of this did Marx's body took? That would scale to Kirby.

What about calcing the Dark Matter Cloud exploding in Dreamland 3? That thing was planet-sized.

Didn't it shrink?

Or Miracle Matter's explosion?

Or Dark Star's Explosion?

Those were a lot of Dark Matter beings. But calc'ing only 1 of the continet-sized Dark Matter in Dark Star moving around would be cool.

1. Btw, in nearly all Kirby vs threads on this site, people talk about Kirby's supposedly insane hax. Asides from transmutating people into food or objects and Ghost Kirby making him hard to kill, what impressive "hax" does he have?

He has a lot of them but that doesn't mean he uses most of them. People doesn't seem to prioritize his IC moves first and then the moves he would be more statistically unlikely to pull off, as they compete with other things he can do.

2. I kinda found a feat for Marx Soul that, if valid, ranges from 4-A to 3-B, as in it has one 4-A end, one 3-C end, and two 3-B ends

We don't know and have no reason to believe that he created them, only that he warped them under unknown amounts of time for fun. He didn't destroy anything? I was told that those things in the background didn't look like galaxies. I imagine they are nebulae, since what else would they be, but idk.

Sorry but there is nothing to be used here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So, I don't think this calc itself scales to Kirby, as the machine likely blew up on its own components due to the damage, like a movie car. But how much of this did Marx's body took? That would scale to Kirby.

Marx was right at the center so he took the full force of this explosion

 

[Winter]

So, I don't think this calc itself scales to Kirby, as the machine likely blew up on its own components due to the damage, like a movie car. But how much of this did Marx's body took? That would scale to Kirby.

Don’t question how the reply looks, idk why it’s like that


But Kirby did destroy it by brute force via throwing Marx into it. There was not very much damage caused to the entirety of Nova, just the core. So Kirby would scale to it

 

[Winter]

There is no reason to say it's only that when it's 2 things, at least one of them being a force going up against you in a way that needs to be countered with your own force.

Well yes, Kirby would have the LS if that were the case. Problem being space is bent in the process, meaning there’s no telling if it’s actually moving the star or your just seeing distorted light via spatial interference.

 

[Eseseso]

There is no reason to say it's only that when it's 2 things, at least one of them being a force going up against you in a way that needs to be countered with your own force.

I said this many times, those are not real stars, those were around the size of DDD. We could see them, you can wander around pages in the Kirby wiki to see this.

So, I don't think this calc itself scales to Kirby, as the machine likely blew up on its own components due to the damage, like a movie car. But how much of this did Marx's body took? That would scale to Kirby.

Didn't it shrink?

I don't know.

Those were a lot of Dark Matter beings. But calc'ing only 1 of the continet-sized Dark Matter in Dark Star moving around would be cool.

Would it scale to Kirby?

He has a lot of them but that doesn't mean he uses most of them. People doesn't seem to prioritize his IC moves first and then the moves he would be more statistically unlikely to pull off, as they compete with other things he can do.

In a majority of Kirby vs threads where he wins, people repeatedly say "Kirby wins because hax stomp" without mentioning what hax.

What would you say is his best hax?

We don't know and have no reason to believe that he created them, only that he warped them under unknown amounts of time for fun. He didn't destroy anything? I was told that those things in the background didn't look like galaxies. I imagine they are nebulae, since what else would they be, but idk.

Sorry but there is nothing to be used here.

I mean the calc page includes 2 ends for nebulae.

 

[Winter]

Naturally, a state that is meant for combat would be superior to one that is used for combat then, right? That would just, by basic power scaling, make the Zero that fought Kirby 5-A

The power scaling is faulty. It wouldn’t matter because KE only applies to his bigger state. Literally nothing you’ve said proves in combat > size increased state.

RIP Hyper Zone

Quite literally why it's just Game Mechanics

Now this is just implying he’s always this size. Nothing ever indicates he’s this big in combat + he’s already shown at a smaller size in combat. Your just dismissing points because you believe your own headcanon applies to actual scaling. Unless you can prove he’s always this big, point is dismissed

"Several explanations" is an interesting way to phrase the fact that you just keep repeating the same thing about "but the KE calc" while not accounting for the fact that it logically makes zero sense for Zero to not utilize all the power he has at his disposal. Condensing large size power into a smaller form is not a foreign concept in fictional media. And you also have no in-universe indication of the Zero that fought Kirby being weaker than his initial size.

Well yea, he’s obviously gonna go all out but yet again, nothing ever implies smaller state = big state. You don’t have indication of this either, so why call me out when your doing the same. I keep bringing up the calc because it’s the reason he has anything 5-A. KE takes into account mass and velocity. Zero in a smaller state wouldn’t have the same mass. No reason for him to scale to a physical feat only applicable to that larger state.

Again conflating the real world with a fictional setting where the laws of physics are able to be bent a little depending on the context of the situation. And this is 100% a situation where there's room for leeway.

“Where laws of physics are able to be bent a little”

Kind of an understatement when your saying small zero = big zero because laws of physics don’t matter when scaling fiction, making it sound like a way smaller deal then what you’ve stated already.

Tl;dr, no proof supporting your headcanon, which is baseless at this point. KE only applies to big eye

 

[Winter]

Imma keep track of the current agree and disagree’s of the proposals


5-A Zero only applies to Big State:

agree: me, efficient

neutral: eseseso

disagree: clover, Arceus

magolor spin is not applicable for multi stellar LS:

agree: me, eseseso

neutral: presumably clover

disagree: efficient, Arceus

 

[Arceus0x]

Add me on disagree on both of your statements

 

[Winter]

Add me on disagree on both of your statements

Yessir. May I ask why?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The power scaling is faulty. It wouldn’t matter because KE only applies to his bigger state. Literally nothing you’ve said proves in combat > size increased state.


Now this is just implying he’s always this size. Nothing ever indicates he’s this big in combat + he’s already shown at a smaller size in combat. Your just dismissing points because you believe your own headcanon applies to actual scaling. Unless you can prove he’s always this big, point is dismissed

Well yea, he’s obviously gonna go all out but yet again, nothing ever implies smaller state = big state. You don’t have indication of this either, so why call me out when your doing the same. I keep bringing up the calc because it’s the reason he has anything 5-A. KE takes into account mass and velocity. Zero in a smaller state wouldn’t have the same mass. No reason for him to scale to a physical feat only applicable to that larger state.

“Where laws of physics are able to be bent a little”

Kind of an understatement when your saying small zero = big zero because laws of physics don’t matter when scaling fiction, making it sound like a way smaller deal then what you’ve stated already.

Tl;dr, no proof supporting your headcanon, which is baseless at this point. KE only applies to big eye

"KE takes into account mass and velocity." You keep saying this but fail to realize that physics being bent in fiction is far from a rarity, literally being noted by the wiki itself. You keep depending on this one statement, but I have continuously mentioned that in order to stop Kirby from foiling his plans, Zero would use every bit of power available to him, but at the same time if he grew to that size in his boss fight you'd be completely unable to fully see him, hence making this Game Mechanics. You made your case about KE, I rebutted by noting how it makes zero sense for Zero to not use all the power available to him, which is 5-A. Maybe try proving that it's noted in-universe that he got weaker

 

[Eficiente]

Marx was right at the center so he took the full force of this explosion

Did he tho? Just curiosity and caution from my part, wouldn't "the center" be the center of Nova's planet-sized body, and what Marx took be on the surface of it?

But Kirby did destroy it by brute force via throwing Marx into it. There was not very much damage caused to the entirety of Nova, just the core. So Kirby would scale to it

Could that have simply be the case? Sure, but the idea of a complex machine blowing up due to getting enough damage is entirely standard and reasonable. I could go on from there, but then Star Dream does the same, a bit after Kirby drilled through it, not at all via a natural reaction of force hitting it.

Imma keep track of the current agree and disagree’s of the proposals


5-A Zero only applies to Big State:

agree: me, efficient

neutral: eseseso

disagree: clover, Arceus

I get why you put me there, but again I think both takes make sense and have no issue portraying them both. I'm gonna later read what was talked about it.

 

[Winter]

"KE takes into account mass and velocity." You keep saying this but fail to realize that physics being bent in fiction is far from a rarity, literally being noted by the wiki itself. You keep depending on this one statement, but I have continuously mentioned that in order to stop Kirby from foiling his plans, Zero would use every bit of power available to him, but at the same time if he grew to that size in his boss fight you'd be completely unable to fully see him, hence making this Game Mechanics. You made your case about KE, I rebutted by noting how it makes zero sense for Zero to not use all the power available to him, which is 5-A. Maybe try proving that it's noted in-universe that he got weaker

Like, obviously physics aren’t always followed in fiction but you can’t say scaling applies to all types of forms because physics aren’t always followed lol. This logic would upgrade legitimately anyone’s weaker physical tiers to a higher tier because they have size manipulation.

Him going all out is a character thing. This doesn’t mean he’s gonna use every single power available to him. Otherwise, wouldn’t Zero just possess Kirby? Same with size manipulation, which isn’t used in battle. Just give up the “he’s always this big” argument. Him always being in a size increased state is a completely baseless point which is already disproved in-game. Don’t dismiss counter arguments with “but game mechanics,” you literally have no proof whatsoever that he’s this big in combat. He’s already shown to be capable of decreasing his size upon entering Popstar’s Atmosphere. He goes from being about 1/5th the size of popstar to several times larger than a cloud in mere moments. You even fight Dark Matter within the cloud before he appears. If he’s the same size, what happens to the cloud? It mysteriously vanishes? Yea, no. You can clearly see they are within the clouds in the ending as well. So stop the “he’s always this size” bullcrap.

heres the things I referred to



6:00



0:30

I have no reason to prove his smaller size is weaker. I have already brought this up and you keep replying with “but physics can be altered completely since it’s fiction.” Even the simplest laws can apply to fiction, there is absolutely no reason this defies them. If we were talking about Magolor’s black hole that spins the setting, that obviously defies physics. You’re the one who brought up his smaller state is equal to the larger. Prove that. I’ve already given mine.

 

[Winter]

Could that have simply be the case? Sure, but the idea of a complex machine blowing up due to getting enough damage is entirely standard and reasonable. I could go on from there, but then Star Dream does the same, a bit after Kirby drilled through it, not at all via a natural reaction of force hitting it.

I get your point but Kirby would actually need to output enough force to blow it apart. Only part of Nova was actually damaged, the durability would remain the same for the rest of Nova. Star Dream example isn’t necessarily comparable to Nova’s explosion. In SS, Nova blows up due to direct contact. Pretty sure in Robobot, that was more cinematic since you just beat the Final Boss of the game after a bunch of phases.

 

[Winter]

I get why you put me there, but again I think both takes make sense and have no issue portraying them both. I'm gonna later read what was talked about it.

Gotchu. Lemme know if you want to change your vote

 

[CloverDragon03]

Like, obviously physics aren’t always followed in fiction but you can’t say scaling applies to all types of forms because physics aren’t always followed lol. This logic would upgrade legitimately anyone’s weaker physical tiers to a higher tier because they have size manipulation.

Him going all out is a character thing. This doesn’t mean he’s gonna use every single power available to him. Otherwise, wouldn’t Zero just possess Kirby? Same with size manipulation, which isn’t used in battle. Just give up the “he’s always this big” argument. Him always being in a size increased state is a completely baseless point which is already disproved in-game. Don’t dismiss counter arguments with “but game mechanics,” you literally have no proof whatsoever that he’s this big in combat. He’s already shown to be capable of decreasing his size upon entering Popstar’s Atmosphere. He goes from being about 1/5th the size of popstar to several times larger than a cloud in mere moments. You even fight Dark Matter within the cloud before he appears. If he’s the same size, what happens to the cloud? It mysteriously vanishes? Yea, no. You can clearly see they are within the clouds in the ending as well. So stop the “he’s always this size” bullcrap.

I never said he's always that size, but I'm saying that Game Mechanics are a good thing to take into account because of the fact that Zero's size when he fights Kirby could also very well not be, well, 2 meters. Especially because we don't see his size after he becomes larger than a cloud besides compared to Kirby.

Also, Zero quite literally can't possess Kirby. That's legit why he possessed King Dedede instead (and also why most possession-wielding characters possess Dedede instead of Kirby)

And yes, I can and will dismiss counter arguments with whatever I see as necessary to dismiss them with, if I feel it's necessary to do so.

I have no reason to prove his smaller size is weaker. I have already brought this up and you keep replying with “but physics can be altered completely since it’s fiction.” Even the simplest laws can apply to fiction, there is absolutely no reason this defies them. If we were talking about Magolor’s black hole that spins the setting, that obviously defies physics. You’re the one who brought up his smaller state is equal to the larger. Prove that. I’ve already given mine.

I proved why his smaller state is equal in power to the larger one, multiple times in fact. This is really your only way to prove beyond any doubt that this is not the case, because your only argument is just "but the calc said this," something that - because of the propensity of fiction to deny even basic physics, especially Kirby of all series - has been addressed.

If you can't prove that, I see no reason for your argument to be accounted for.

 

[NegaNote]

If I might add something about the Nova explosion, I have a decent amount of tech knowledge and I can fairly confidently say that from what I know, it is extremely unlikely for a machine to explode from being heavily damaged without some kind of reactor failure or fuel ignition being involved. Really complex machines that are damaged that way tend to just melt from electrical overload or have spontaneous mechanical failure more than anything. We know that Star Dream exploded when its core was destroyed, but the same did not occur for the OG Galactic Nova, and not to mention Marx didn't even hit the core!

From the Kirby Super Star Ultra version of the cutscene, we see that Marx just hit a bit of the exposed insides far from the center. I find it far more likely that Nova was destroyed from the sheer force of the impact, both for this reason and Occam's Razor, than from anything else.

 

[Winter]

I never said he's always that size, but I'm saying that Game Mechanics are a good thing to take into account because of the fact that Zero's size when he fights Kirby could also very well not be, well, 2 meters. Especially because we don't see his size after he becomes larger than a cloud besides compared to Kirby.

Tbh, you were implying his smaller size was game mechanics so that’s the reply I went with. Kind of a corruption of your own arguments too because you’ve been saying it is a game mechanic, rather than “it’s only a thing worthy taking account of”

You can’t assume he’s larger at a smaller size just because he’s this big previously before the fight. There is no logic in that. He simply altered his size. Nothing else to it

Also, Zero quite literally can't possess Kirby. That's legit why he possessed King Dedede instead (and also why most possession-wielding characters possess Dedede instead of Kirby)

And yes, I can and will dismiss counter arguments with whatever I see as necessary to dismiss them with, if I feel it's necessary to do so.

Kirby doesn’t have resistance to possession, only their corruption. No one possesses Kirby in-game, likely due to their in-character. They never use it in-combat, only in certian scenarios (examples include King Dedede because he happens to be where ever they are, because people possess its weakness, or more tactical approaches like the Fairy Queen)

Ah yes, it seems like a good idea to just mention Game Mechanics for the tenth time because that’s how I feel like dismissing the point. Sure, you can do that if you like, but if you wanna make a solid refute, don’t repeat the same disproved thing several times over.

I proved why his smaller state is equal in power to the larger one, multiple times in fact. This is really your only way to prove beyond any doubt that this is not the case, because your only argument is just "but the calc said this," something that - because of the propensity of fiction to deny even basic physics, especially Kirby of all series - has been addressed.

Yes you have “proven it multiple times” All you’ve been saying is “physics can be bent a little.”

For your information, this is a case where physics fully apply and saying smaller = big because combat is above all else is a very illogical point. Many characters possess higher tiers not used in combat. Zero is the same way. He never used his size increase in battle, which for like the ten times I’ve said this, which the point has been proven many times, his larger size > his smaller size

KE calc is very important. Not only is it why the 5-A exists, but the very existence of the calc disproves your points. Had you listened to my point instead of ignoring it and repeating your own point that power is condensed, this wouldn’t have started. Here’s a good question that comes to mind.

How do you condense physical movement power from a larger state to a smaller state?

Especially if said movement power accounts for specifically mass and velocity. Obviously velocity is the same but mass is different between the two states. The mass can’t be compressed into a smaller state since his presumable base size is his one in-combat scaling off of regular Dark Matter species which are ~ Kirby’s size, Zero only being slightly larger. He’d just be expanding his volume instead of condensing it. Thus only applies to larger state, not smaller


I have given you a much more detailed explanation to my point. Take as much time to read it. Should you not and repeat the same baseless argument, I have no need to refute anything or spoon feed you once again.

If you can't prove that, I see no reason for your argument to be accounted for.

Already proven. Why wouldn’t it be accounted for if I didn’t write the explanation already stated like at the beginning of the discussion.

 

[Winter]

If I might add something about the Nova explosion, I have a decent amount of tech knowledge and I can fairly confidently say that from what I know, it is extremely unlikely for a machine to explode from being heavily damaged without some kind of reactor failure or fuel ignition being involved. Really complex machines that are damaged that way tend to just melt from electrical overload or have spontaneous mechanical failure more than anything. We know that Star Dream exploded when its core was destroyed, but the same did not occur for the OG Galactic Nova, and not to mention Marx didn't even hit the core!

From the Kirby Super Star Ultra version of the cutscene, we see that Marx just hit a bit of the exposed insides far from the center. I find it far more likely that Nova was destroyed from the sheer force of the impact, both for this reason and Occam's Razor, than from anything else.

Thank you for your input

After Efficient replies for the Zero argument and this one, I’ll revise the votes