Kirby revisions: Everything coming full circle

[Peptocoptr27]

Is it because it happens in space? If so, that really sucks, but I do agree that it does. It's just a damn shame that it being in space makes it totally useless. It was 3-A and now all of a sudden we can't even get it to 3-C. It's just totally useless

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Almost forgot about this. Bump?

 

[Eficiente]

Another thing to do in this thread is to remove all those invalid match-ups, which I marked as a priority and said that I had no interest in doing myself, unlike all the rest of things. Any volunteers there?

Any volunteer can link the profiles they edited to show their progress. Otherwise, there is no need to bump the thread.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

aight so can anyone remind me what we are doing with the thread and if i lost the thread with the tier upgrades based on the moon explosion calc and other stuff?

Cause i don't give a dang about 3-A anymore i just want Kirby to be where he rightfully belongs

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh this has been on my mind, but would the Sun and the Moon being needed to stalemate the Galactic Nova scale it to the Sun's GBE + the Moon's GBE?

That'd make it and any pre-Canvas Curse characters High 4-C

 

[Peptocoptr27]

The sun and moon are treated as equals, so I doubt it. The sun is portrayed kind of like a moon in Kirby, so it probably has a similar mass

 

[Eficiente]

There are many suns and moons in Popstar, those 2 seemed to be equal in size so I have no idea what their size may be, we can go by either both being moon-sized or scaling based on the game-map.

I have this written about it here:

• "Anywhere from tier 6, 5 or 4 at best, needs a calc | The Sun and Moon fought each other day and night by flying and colliding against each other at this speeds. This may scale to Nova. Going by how characters saw them from Popstar and how they were in the game map, the Sun and Moon are both smaller than regular planets.
• Maybe 5-A, needs a calc | Nova, whose the size of a planet, flys at FTL speeds and then gets suddenly stopped and backed away by the Sun and Moon. The 3 survive that."

 

[Eficiente]

I got a new speed feat for the low-tiers. Turns out, some Laser Ball enemies have this behaviour; they stay in place shooting their straight laser, and bent the trajectory of the laser 90º downwards when it goes over foes. So they react to their own lasers, and they can do this from close. This is also not something all Laser Balls can do, you can possess them in other game and they don't have this power, and the Laser Copy Ability doesn't have it either, so I think it's reasonable to assume some Laser Balls were built to have this.

See here. A calc should be made for the reactions of a Laser Ball bending its laser like 10 cm away from itself and a Helper being able to dodge their laser up close like 50 cm away (Via moving away in any way, blocking, etc. Helpers are CPUs and a bit dumb, but they let you play as them so any action they do is valid). It should be similar to this calc, which also has the reasons as to why those lasers are real lasers. @Jasonsith Would you be interested in making a calc for this? If not then I'm sure someone else could, it's not a priority.

 

[Eficiente]

So, one of the main translators in the Kirby community I listed in one of my blogs translated the pause des. in Star Allies. It has some handy info that I will have to update over time, the most notable being that the Void 4 heroes fought int the past wasn't Void Termina, but an ancestor/past reincarnation of him, and Void Termina is the new reincarnation after it. We already knew the latter, but not the former, as little sense as that makes.

 

[Eseseso]

So, one of the main translators in the Kirby community I listed in one of my blogs translated the pause des. in Star Allies. It has some handy info that I will have to update over time, the most notable being that the Void 4 heroes fought int the past wasn't Void Termina, but an ancestor/past reincarnation of him, and Void Termina is the new reincarnation after it. We already knew the latter, but not the former, as little sense as that makes.

Does this affect any scaling?

Also that's kinda cool.

 

[Eficiente]

Nah. If anything, that Void could even use his own profile and be at Unknown. We can at least stop calling that Void Void Termina, since we don't his name.

 

[Eseseso]

bump

 

[Eficiente]

I'm doing stuff that may take a month or more. As a reminder the priority is firstly to remove all the outdated MUs, and calc that speed feat I said before because it affects too many profiles.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm gonna give Kirby Plot Manip in the future.

 

[Winter]

I disagree with the AP changes, everything else looks good to add


AP changes shouldn’t be applied because:

1. No one scales to the Nightmare death explosion, or at least through what’s shown since Kirby didn’t tank the explosion, he escaped


2. Zero was in a size increased state, no one physically scales to his kinetic energy. In battle, he’s in a much smaller size. Same applies to Nova, only the sun and moon scale


One thing that surprises me is that no one calced Nova’s death explosion. Probably the one thing Kirby scales to that can increase the verses’ tier

 

[CloverDragon03]

AP changes shouldn’t be applied because:

1. No one scales to the Nightmare death explosion, or at least through what’s shown since Kirby didn’t tank the explosion, he escaped

Nothing indicates that Nightmare's death explosion is above his normal attacks, so Occam's Razor dictates that the death explosion is about the same as his standard attacks, and thus Kirby scales

2. Zero was in a size increased state, no one physically scales to his kinetic energy. In battle, he’s in a much smaller size. Same applies to Nova, only the sun and moon scale

His power isn't increased in this state to our knowledge, it's simply condensed into a smaller state.

One thing that surprises me is that no one calced Nova’s death explosion. Probably the one thing Kirby scales to that can increase the verses’ tier

I can probably calc that today or tomorrow

 

[Arceus0x]

I can probably calc that today or tomorrow

i remember trying to calc it and i think i might have at one point but Efi said it is probably due to the machine factor of the Nova and Marx wouldn't scale with dura due to tanking only a small portion of it so even if we do somehow get something along the lines of 5-A Marx would probably scale to like Low 5-B at best from that

 

[Eficiente]

Well, I think the take of "Nightmare's death explosion doesn't scale to his regular attack" does make as much as sense as to say that it would scale, as it would be intuitive to say that the power unleashed when he died was greater than the the power of his regular attacks and blows. We don't know the mechanics going on here, maybe his regular attacks and blows draw upon a fraction of his "full" power, and the full power his body shows is blowing up like that uncontrollably. If this was the case, his regular attacks wouldn't have the same power as that explosion.

Then again, Nightmare was created by the Fountain of Dreams -> The Fountain of Dreams does nothing on its own and is entirely powered by the Star Rod. -> Kirby used the Star Rod as a weapon against Nightmare, Nightmare can take hits from it and reflect its projectiles with his cape, Kirby can take hits from Nightmare with his body exposed. I'm positive to say it's valid that the Star Rod's power should be equal to Nightmare's death explosion, so Kirby can also scale to it through these other means.

On 0 being increased, it's intuitive; if being bigger lets him have more power then why didn't he do so when fighting Kirby and Gooey? He got his body beaten and ripped and then his red "eye" beaten and it blew up. Something similar happens with 02, there are continent-sized Dark Matter beings making out Dark Star but then Kirby just has to fight their leader, who is smaller in size, intuitively because "he's the biggest challenge".

 

[Eseseso]

If death explosions don't scale, then don't we have to remove 3-C for Kirby since he scales to Void Termina's 3-C explosion?

 

[Arceus0x]

If death explosions don't scale, then don't we have to remove 3-C for Kirby since he scales to Void Termina's 3-C explosion?

One, the argument for death explosion was debunked. Two, 3-C scales for different reasons.

 

[Eficiente]

3-C scales for different reasons.

That is correct, @Eseseso see Void Termina's AP, I put the reasons there. Should they also be the Star Allies' AP? Yes, it's just that their reasoning is already too long. I haven't even decided yet if I will add the statement about how Magolor's average moves use the power of the Master Crown despite Magolor himself being in his regular form. Idk what to do with so much consistency.

 

[Eseseso]

One, the argument for death explosion was debunked.

What do you mean?

Two, 3-C scales for different reasons.

Is it for scaling hundreds of times above that 4-A feat?

That is correct, @Eseseso see Void Termina's AP, I put the reasons there. Should they also be the Star Allies' AP? Yes, it's just that their reasoning is already too long. I haven't even decided yet if I will add the statement about how Magolor's average moves use the power of the Master Crown despite Magolor himself being in his regular form. Idk what to do with so much consistency.

Oh I see, so Void's AP > his death explosion for damaging the terrain that survived his explosion. Got it.

Doesn't the Master Crown still only scale to 4-A?

 

[Winter]

Well, I think the take of "Nightmare's death explosion doesn't scale to his regular attack" does make as much as sense as to say that it would scale, as it would be intuitive to say that the power unleashed when he died was greater than the the power of his regular attacks and blows. We don't know the mechanics going on here, maybe his regular attacks and blows draw upon a fraction of his "full" power, and the full power his body shows is blowing up like that uncontrollably. If this was the case, his regular attacks wouldn't have the same power as that explosion.

Then again, Nightmare was created by the Fountain of Dreams -> The Fountain of Dreams does nothing on its own and is entirely powered by the Star Rod. -> Kirby used the Star Rod as a weapon against Nightmare, Nightmare can take hits from it and reflect its projectiles with his cape, Kirby can take hits from Nightmare with his body exposed. I'm positive to say it's valid that the Star Rod's power should be equal to Nightmare's death explosion, so Kirby can also scale to it through these other means.

On 0 being increased, it's intuitive; if being bigger lets him have more power then why didn't he do so when fighting Kirby and Gooey? He got his body beaten and ripped and then his red "eye" beaten and it blew up. Something similar happens with 02, there are continent-sized Dark Matter beings making out Dark Star but then Kirby just has to fight their leader, who is smaller in size, intuitively because "he's the biggest challenge".

I can agree with what was said about Nightmare but Zero is something I’m still iffy on


The whole reason the kinetic energy level is that level is because he is larger. Kinetic Energy takes into account the mass of the character/object and it’s velocity. Point being, the mass is found in the calc by multiplying his volume and density. He in a much larger state affects the numbers severely. Normally he’s just a several meter sized eyeball, which Kirby fights. No reason for Kirby to scale to his kinetic energy. Him not using it in the fight is irrelevant to statistics. That’s dependent on his character. He probably doesn’t use it in-character during fights. Same applies to 02. It’s just for invasions. Actual combat, he would shrink down

 

[Winter]

If death explosions don't scale, then don't we have to remove 3-C for Kirby since he scales to Void Termina's 3-C explosion?

Like the other members said, differing reasons. Void Termina scales to his because he already can damage said terrain with no issue. Magolor scales to his because it’s implied the full power of the Master Crown was being used (or at least a somewhat full since Crowned Magolor is weaker than Magolor Soul, the one who had the statement)

 

[Eseseso]

Like the other members said, differing reasons. Void Termina scales to his because he already can damage said terrain with no issue. Magolor scales to his because it’s implied the full power of the Master Crown was being used (or at least a somewhat full since Crowned Magolor is weaker than Magolor Soul, the one who had the statement)

Isn't the Master Crown only 4-A?

 

[Winter]

Isn't the Master Crown only 4-A?

It has a likely 2-C rating

 

[Winter]

It has a likely 2-C rating

Though now that I think about it, the lifting strength for Magolor is gonna need revised. Not sure if I should make another thread or just add it to this one so it gets all done in one

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Though now that I think about it, the lifting strength for Magolor is gonna need revised.

Why?

 

[Winter]

Why?

The black hole feat spinning stars seems iffy. The black hole is distorting space than actually spinning the surroundings. Otherwise, Kirby would’ve also spun around, but he didn’t because he resists spatial manipulation. After looking at the profile, Kirby already has resistance to it for the same reasons. Since he’s not actually moving them and it’s really space distorting, the multi-stellar LS should be removed. Unless if there is a LS feat I don’t know of, Kirby is Class 1 till Forgotten Land

 

[CloverDragon03]

We have already dismissed that feat

 

[Winter]

We have already dismissed that feat

Multi Stellar was there before that calc. If it was dismissed, why didn’t anyone say anything about changing LS?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Multi Stellar was there before that calc. If it was dismissed, why didn’t anyone say anything about changing LS?

Spinning an area with multiple stars in it would definitely be Multi-Stellar since they are actual stars, but it would be really hard to actually calculate

 

[Winter]

Spinning an area with multiple stars in it would definitely be Multi-Stellar since they are actual stars, but it would be really hard to actually calculate

Read my comment up above about the black hole. I was talking about my disagreement with Multi Stellar LS, not the calc.

Basically it wouldn’t apply because it’s caused via spatial hax so LS can’t be applied

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's not spatial hax, it's telekinesis. What he creates from it also has Magolor's AP, it doesn't ignore durability in any way that would indicate hax

 

[Winter]

That's not spatial hax, it's telekinesis. What he creates from it also has Magolor's AP, it doesn't ignore durability in any way that would indicate hax

Misuse of the term, sorry. So… he telekinetically moves around space in a rotating motion? Dude that’s spatial manipulation, not telekinesis. AP is irrelevant to LS, at least in this scenario. Him rotating space wouldn’t apply at all to lifting strength. He just distorts space. Really all their is to it. No stats are involved in it.

 

[Eficiente]

Zero is something I’m still iffy on


The whole reason the kinetic energy level is that level is because he is larger. Kinetic Energy takes into account the mass of the character/object and it’s velocity. Point being, the mass is found in the calc by multiplying his volume and density. He in a much larger state affects the numbers severely. Normally he’s just a several meter sized eyeball, which Kirby fights. No reason for Kirby to scale to his kinetic energy. Him not using it in the fight is irrelevant to statistics. That’s dependent on his character. He probably doesn’t use it in-character during fights. Same applies to 02. It’s just for invasions. Actual combat, he would shrink down

This does make me lose confidence on the feat. Ok, I concur, 0 should be either "High 6-A normally, 5-A physically when increased in size" or "High 6-A, possibly 5-A normally, 5-A physically when increased in size" based on his feat.

The black hole feat spinning stars seems iffy. The black hole is distorting space than actually spinning the surroundings. Otherwise, Kirby would’ve also spun around, but he didn’t because he resists spatial manipulation. After looking at the profile, Kirby already has resistance to it for the same reasons. Since he’s not actually moving them and it’s really space distorting, the multi-stellar LS should be removed. Unless if there is a LS feat I don’t know of, Kirby is Class 1 till Forgotten Land

Well, we can know that he's affecting those surroundings because we're shown the space where they are being affected, we have no way of know if he just affects a limited area around that isn't touching those surroundings but appears to do so in perspective. The standard thing to do is to take the information given as it apppears, otherwise seeing a star disappear from Earth may always have the possibility of being seeing the light from that star disappear while the star is fine.

It is both a LS feat and a resistance, if it was just a resistance we would be saying that all that force can only be withstood with his body against space hax and gravity hax. Space being warped was a side effect of the black hole, black holes are gravity/pressure, which we see being applied on the space spinning and Kirby & co. being slowly dragged inside the black hole, so it's stands to reason that they excess LS on the level of what the black hole is doing.

I would say "it's not TK", but then, TK is super wide, maybe it is. It's Gravity Manip/Black Hole Creation that causes Space Manip.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Zero's kinetic energy feat not being scalable to Kirby.

So Kirby may or may not scale to Nightmare.

Hey @CloverDragon03, didn't you say you were gonna calc Nova's death?

Though if you want, this doc puts his explosion at 12 Ninatons (although they use a bigger Nova), and Dark Matter's lowballed death explosion is estimated in the doc to be 8.9 Ninatons, so both those calcs would be close to 5-A+

 

[Winter]

This does make me lose confidence on the feat. Ok, I concur, 0 should be either "High 6-A normally, 5-A physically when increased in size" or "High 6-A, possibly 5-A normally, 5-A physically when increased in size" based on his feat.

The former seems more reasonable. Though the rating probably won’t matter if Nova’s explosion is anything to go off of (if it does get calced)

Well, we can know that he's affecting those surroundings because we're shown the space where they are being affected, we have no way of know if he just affects a limited area around that isn't touching those surroundings but appears to do so in perspective. The standard thing to do is to take the information given as it apppears, otherwise seeing a star disappear from Earth may always have the possibility of being seeing the light from that star disappear while the star is fine.

It is both a LS feat and a resistance, if it was just a resistance we would be saying that all that force can only be withstood with his body against space hax and gravity hax. Space being warped was a side effect of the black hole, black holes are gravity/pressure, which we see being applied on the space spinning and Kirby & co. being slowly dragged inside the black hole, so it's stands to reason that they excess LS on the level of what the black hole is doing.

I would say "it's not TK", but then, TK is super wide, maybe it is. It's Gravity Manip/Black Hole Creation that causes Space Manip.

The issue with this is that it’s spatial manipulation. It distorts the area around the black hole. This brings up the question on whether it was affecting a local or interstellar area. Spatial distortions make it feel iffy as if space were distorted, distance can’t be accounted for as light would bend from the distortions. Then again, it could simply just be everything spinning. No way to tell since either side could be proven by the same feat. Given how it’s assumed everything is spinning, I’m leaning towards a more local area. Proof can’t be solidified that everything is being spun, especially with the anti feat I presented.

Not denying it can be a LS feat but given what I said, I feel neutral about the LS.

Though if you want, this doc puts his explosion at 12 Ninatons (although they use a bigger Nova), and Dark Matter's lowballed death explosion is estimated in the doc to be 8.9 Ninatons, so both those calcs would be close to 5-A+

Bruh what’s with Kirby scaling to death explosions lol

But I’m no calcer so someone else can evaluate the feats if we plan on adding them

Though what I can say is that the Zero death explosion uses KE instead of an explosion calc, and the Crystal Shards feat is a group of DM exploding rather than a singular one. Also Miracle Matter flat out explodes when he dies so it wouldn’t scale to him either. The explosions are probably dependent on how Kirby scales since he was directly in the DL3 one.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I can agree with what was said about Nightmare but Zero is something I’m still iffy on


The whole reason the kinetic energy level is that level is because he is larger. Kinetic Energy takes into account the mass of the character/object and it’s velocity. Point being, the mass is found in the calc by multiplying his volume and density. He in a much larger state affects the numbers severely. Normally he’s just a several meter sized eyeball, which Kirby fights. No reason for Kirby to scale to his kinetic energy. Him not using it in the fight is irrelevant to statistics. That’s dependent on his character. He probably doesn’t use it in-character during fights. Same applies to 02. It’s just for invasions. Actual combat, he would shrink down

Zero has no reason to not use his full power against Kirby, nor is it ever noted that this shrunken state actually decreases his power, so it can't be assumed that he wouldn't remain 5-A