Kirby revisions: Everything coming full circle

[Eseseso]

Man I don't think we've had a major Kirby update in the entire past year.

We've had 3 Kirby CRTs including this one all discussing the same calcs yet they've either been closed or lead to nothing thanks to nothing ever being resolved

 

[Winter]

Man I don't think we've had a major Kirby update in the entire past year.

We've had 3 Kirby CRTs including this one all discussing the same calcs yet they've either been closed or lead to nothing thanks to nothing ever being resolved

Aye, well thankfully I revived it

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbh, you were implying his smaller size was game mechanics so that’s the reply I went with. Kind of a corruption of your own arguments too because you’ve been saying it is a game mechanic, rather than “it’s only a thing worthy taking account of”

You can’t assume he’s larger at a smaller size just because he’s this big previously before the fight. There is no logic in that. He simply altered his size. Nothing else to it

For one reason or another, Zero is very bent on stopping Kirby, but doesn't use Possession to do so. I can't say why because we don't know exactly why, but that's how it is. And whether you want to call it a corruption or not, my intention was just to indicate that game mechanics are worth taking into account, especially because even Zero's "larger than a cloud" size is way bigger than the 2 meters you fight him at in-game. If I didn't make that clearer, I apologize.

Also you can't assume he changed his size between his arrival on Popstar and his fight with Kirby because he was never shown doing so.

For your information, this is a case where physics fully apply and saying smaller = big because combat is above all else is a very illogical point. Many characters possess higher tiers not used in combat. Zero is the same way. He never used his size increase in battle, which for like the ten times I’ve said this, which the point has been proven many times, his larger size > his smaller size

KE calc is very important. Not only is it why the 5-A exists, but the very existence of the calc disproves your points. Had you listened to my point instead of ignoring it and repeating your own point that power is condensed, this wouldn’t have started. Here’s a good question that comes to mind.

How do you condense physical movement power from a larger state to a smaller state?

Especially if said movement power accounts for specifically mass and velocity. Obviously velocity is the same but mass is different between the two states. The mass can’t be compressed into a smaller state since his presumable base size is his one in-combat scaling off of regular Dark Matter species which are ~ Kirby’s size, Zero only being slightly larger. He’d just be expanding his volume instead of condensing it. Thus only applies to larger state, not smaller

Well, if you're very bent on using strictly physics, total energy isn't solely composed of kinetic energy. Yes, I should've mentioned this sooner, but there are far more types of energy. To begin with, potential energy is another type of mechanical energy alongside kinetic energy, and there are subsets of both potential energy and kinetic energy. On a broader scale, mechanical energy is only one of six types of energy. The law of conservation of energy dictates that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted into one form or another. If you want to fully apply physics, you must also acknowledge that Zero cannot be less than 5-A without violating the law of conservation of energy.

Already proven. Why wouldn’t it be accounted for if I didn’t write the explanation already stated like at the beginning of the discussion.

Well I've given a new argument, and I'll also take this time to apologize for getting heated. Even if I didn't directly insult you, I was getting very aggressive.

 

[Eseseso]

Can someone please sum up what calcs are still scaleable to Kirby and are still accepted?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Magolor spinning calc is rejected, Zero calc is accepted but scaling is being debated, not sure about the state of the Nova KE calc, and the Nightmare and Nova explosion calcs have been accepted and are scalable to Kirby and the like

 

[Winter]

Magolor spinning calc is rejected, Zero calc is accepted but scaling is being debated, not sure about the state of the Nova KE calc, and the Nightmare and Nova explosion calcs have been accepted and are scalable to Kirby and the like

Nova KE calc is really only applicable to Nova I’m pretty sure. Just a check on the spin, are we 100% removing the Multi-Stellar LS or just the AP results from the calc?

We should prolly update the op with what is currently discussed about the calcs

 

[Eficiente]

I get your point but Kirby would actually need to output enough force to blow it apart. Only part of Nova was actually damaged, the durability would remain the same for the rest of Nova. Star Dream example isn’t necessarily comparable to Nova’s explosion. In SS, Nova blows up due to direct contact. Pretty sure in Robobot, that was more cinematic since you just beat the Final Boss of the game after a bunch of phases.

The part of Nova that was damaged was its nucleus, it makes perfect sense that any amount of extra damage after that would trigger it to blow up. Star Dream blows up due to being a machine that can, on its own, blow up within a given context of it getting enough damage internally, Nova is the same.

If I might add something about the Nova explosion, I have a decent amount of tech knowledge and I can fairly confidently say that from what I know, it is extremely unlikely for a machine to explode from being heavily damaged without some kind of reactor failure or fuel ignition being involved. Really complex machines that are damaged that way tend to just melt from electrical overload or have spontaneous mechanical failure more than anything. We know that Star Dream exploded when its core was destroyed, but the same did not occur for the OG Galactic Nova, and not to mention Marx didn't even hit the core!

From the Kirby Super Star Ultra version of the cutscene, we see that Marx just hit a bit of the exposed insides far from the center. I find it far more likely that Nova was destroyed from the sheer force of the impact, both for this reason and Occam's Razor, than from anything else.

Well, Kirby aimed to attack the nucleus, destroyed the "heart", many mini explosions happened on its own after that, followed by a bigger explosion that did not happen due to Kirby having attacked that last pillar too hard, and later Marx is sent at one side of Nova while white blasts before the explosion come from the very center of Nova, then it blows up. The same white blasts also came out of Nova before its brain pretty much blew up.

Kirby doesn’t have resistance to possession, only their corruption. No one possesses Kirby in-game, likely due to their in-character. They never use it in-combat, only in certian scenarios (examples include King Dedede because he happens to be where ever they are, because people possess its weakness, or more tactical approaches like the Fairy Queen)

To play the devil's advocate here, maybe they knew it wouldn't work as he resisted the dark clouds they used to control everyone else. This is speculation and inapplicable tho.

 

[NegaNote]

Well, Kirby aimed to attack the nucleus, destroyed the "heart", many mini explosions happened on its own after that, followed by a bigger explosion that did not happen due to Kirby having attacked that last pillar too hard, and later Marx is sent at one side of Nova while white blasts before the explosion come from the very center of Nova, then it blows up. The same white blasts also came out of Nova before its brain pretty much blew up.

Yes -- my main point was that this smaller set of explosions wasn't comparable to the scale of the explosion that happened from Kirby knocking Marx into Nova, so I think the two explosions are from separate causes. The smaller was from the nucleus's destruction and subsequent meltdown, and the bigger full-scale one was from sheer impact force. Does that clear things up?

 

[Eficiente]

No, a bunch of things point to the idea that this was Nova blowing up. We don't know how destroyed the nucleus was when it blew up, more force to it could have caused a bigger explosion. The explosion comes from the center of Nova, Marx wasn't thrown there. The white blasts before the explosion are the same as the white blasts before his heart blew up, when Nova itself was the cause of it. Star Dream is able to blow up in a similar way.

 

[NegaNote]

No, a bunch of things point to the idea that this was Nova blowing up. We don't know how destroyed the nucleus was when it blew u, move force to it could have caused a bigger explosion. The explosion comes from the center of Nova, Marx wasn't thrown there. The white blasts before the explosion are the same as the white blasts before his heart blew up, when Nova itself was the cause of it. Star Dream is able to blow up in a similar way.

Honestly, I'm not sure the white blasts are necessarily relevant here -- we see them in a lot of general cases where a boss is about to blow up or otherwise disincorporate, including non-mechanical bosses like Void Termina and the core form of Chaos Elfilis.

I can however see the potential for it still being some remnant of the core being involved in the destruction, though I'll also note that when IRL machines explode from a fuel/reactor malfunction, they don't tend to explode multiple times, or if they do, later explosions are directly caused by earlier ones. Maybe a possibly or likely rating could be in order?

 

[Eficiente]

It's not relevant that those other bosses have those same visuals because they have it due to their own biology+superpowers causing them to get that reaction. It's something that is real and is happening, one moon in Popstar still has a hole in it from Nightmare blowing up and the area where Void Termina was got destroyed. Something similar happens to Nova, but it's a machine and so the tech inside is to blame for it blowing up. Nothing wrong to point out there. Some characters don't blow up and the explosions we see are game mechanics, this is correct and also not related.

We don't know how this machine from the future made by negligent or morally questionable beings was made and we saw it explode multiple times, a possibly or likely rating could not be done. Marx's body still scales to what he took from the explosion though.

 

[Winter]

It's not relevant that those other bosses have those same visuals because they have it due to their own biology+superpowers causing them to get that reaction. It's something that is real and is happening, one moon in Popstar still has a hole in it from Nightmare blowing up and the area where Void Termina was got destroyed. Something similar happens to Nova, but it's a machine and so the tech inside is to blame for it blowing up. Nothing wrong to point out there. Some characters don't blow up and the explosions we see are game mechanics, this is correct and also not related.

We don't know how this machine from the future made by negligent or morally questionable beings was made and we saw it explode multiple times, a possibly or likely rating could not be done. Marx's body still scales to what he took from the explosion though.

So either way, we would get Low 5-B out of Marx and Kirby?

How do you feel about everything else presented?

 

[Arceus0x]

So either way, we would get Low 5-B out of Marx and Kirby?

How do you feel about everything else presented?

not Low 5-B cause inverse square law

 

[CloverDragon03]

not Low 5-B cause inverse square law

Marx was at the center of the explosion

 

[Arceus0x]

Marx was at the center of the explosion

he wasn't though

 

[Eficiente]

Just curiosity and caution from my part, wouldn't "the center" be the center of Nova's planet-sized body, and what Marx took be on the surface of it?

This was my concern about it.

How do you feel about everything else presented?

On the 0 thing, same as before.

 

[Winter]

This was my concern about it.

On the 0 thing, same as before.

Does it matter that much where Marx was when the explosion happened? He legitimately tanked a planet sized explosion from within Nova (he was flung somewhere in the exposed area)

So neutral?

nvm, just scrolled up, you agreed

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

I forgot, since the "New World" in Forgotten Land uses real human measurement scaled down in gameplay, I think some of the results in the calcs @CloverDragon03 made should be slightly adjusted, simply by some results saying next to them "Note that [Link the "New World" canonically uses real human measurements] that are scaled down in gameplay so that Kirby can interact with them, meaning that the real size of this objects is likely to be bigger to an unknown degree." or something among this lines.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I could add a little something like that, since I think that's about the best we can do due to not really having anything we can scale from that place in Wondaria to the Alivel Mall

 

[Eseseso]

Just curious @CloverDragon03 , if you were to use the human measurements in your Forgotten land calcs, what would the new results look like?

Since I don't think it'd affect the calc for Fecto moving Popstar closer.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Just curious @CloverDragon03 , if you were to use the human measurements in your Forgotten land calcs, what would the new results look like?

Since I don't think it'd affect the calc for Fecto moving Popstar closer.

Well we don't know, because there's nothing human-based I can really pixel scale to. I could try something later today but I'm not sure how well it'd go

 

[Eseseso]

Well we don't know, because there's nothing human-based I can really pixel scale to. I could try something later today but I'm not sure how well it'd go

No worries, I mean it'd only affect the minor calcs so do it at your own leisure.

 

[Winter]

I need some time to rest, so I prolly won’t respond till the weekend. Got stressed from another debate I was in + school combo

 

[Winter]

I’m more energized and ready to tackle these once again. Can someone remind me of the agreed and disagrees to the calcs and scaling?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I forgor

 

[CloverDragon03]

Magolor spinning calc is rejected, Zero calc is accepted but scaling is being debated, not sure about the state of the Nova KE calc, and the Nightmare and Nova explosion calcs have been accepted and are scalable to Kirby and the like

@Winter See here

 

[Winter]

@Winter See here

Thanks. So really all there is to decide is either 5-A Kirbin or Low 5-B Kirbin.

 

[Eseseso]

And whether or not to remove Kirby's Multi-Stellar LS since Magolor's feat of that may be invalid.

 

[Winter]

And whether or not to remove Kirby's Multi-Stellar LS since Magolor's feat of that may be invalid.

After scrolling up, pretty sure Esesco and I agree to removal, you’re neutral, and Efi and Arceus disagree with removal

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree with removing the rating. Even if the feat itself isn't quantifiable via a calc, movement of multiple stars is textbook Multi-Stellar

 

[Winter]

I disagree with removing the rating. Even if the feat itself isn't quantifiable via a calc, movement of multiple stars is textbook Multi-Stellar

The whole idea behind the removal is that it’s spatial manipulation so it’s unquantifiable whether it’s actually bending the space of an interstellar area or just a localized distortion. It’s unquantifiable so giving the spatial manipulation a LS Tier is nearly impossible which makes the feat pointless

 

[CloverDragon03]

If we see the stars in the background spinning as well, they're evidently affected by this

 

[Winter]

If we see the stars in the background spinning as well, they're evidently affected by this

The range of the spatial manipulation is impossible to determine tho. If space distorts in an area, distance can’t be determined since the light is being bent. Distance is a non-factor so it can’t be determined what AOE the spatial manipulation is affecting. It can’t be determined so it’s impossible to add LS

 

[CloverDragon03]

If the stars weren't in the range of the spatial manipulation, they wouldn't be spinning

 

[Winter]

If the stars weren't in the range of the spatial manipulation, they wouldn't be spinning

Distance is a non-factor. All of the surrounding space is bending. Light bends through space. Distance = ? AOE can’t be determined. LS = ?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm so lost. First you say the range can't be determined, then you say distance is a non-factor? What am I missing

 

[Winter]

I'm so lost. First you say the range can't be determined, then you say distance is a non-factor? What am I missing

Did you read my reply? When I said distance, I meant range, sorry. Range of the Spatial Manipulation can’t be determined because the space manip bends light. The light traveling from the Star to the battle area is distorted. So it can’t be determined how far the Spatial Manipulation extends. The light between the two points is traveling through distorted space so no matter what, the light is gonna travel the pattern that the space is bending, rather than a straight path. Range can’t be determined so LS can’t be determined because you don’t know if it’s actually the stars spinning or the light in between that is

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, that makes more sense. I’m fine with the removal then

 

[Eseseso]

So what will pre-Forgotten Land Kirby scale too?