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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade

Peptocoptr27

Peptocoptr27

2,365
1,301
A follow-up to this thread, which died out of seemingly nowhere (for the best, considering my old blog was pretty bad).

I've looked at this from every angle, even making some rough sketches of what the cosmology should reasonably look like, and I couldn't find any other conclusion. The point of this blog and this thread is to upgrade Kirby cosmology to Low 1-C.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Understanding Kirby's Messy Cosmology: Low 1-C vs 2-C

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

To summarize what my blog is about, the Japanese statements simply confirm that Another Dimension's road is qualitatively superior to the concepts of time and space. It's also said to exceed time and dimensions. That's two of our biggest tier 1 requirements being fulfilled with just with official statements. Nothing in Kirby lore contradicts it. In fact, it even supports it with dimensional wall shenanigans and the fact that AD makes up the space between dimensions. I can even bring up a list of verses which are already accepted as Low 1-C on the Wiki for similar, if not weaker reasonings (but I feel like that would border on derailment).

This isn't a tier upgrade to anyone in the Kirby cast, since they currently don't scale to the cosmology as it stands.

Agreement: 21 (Justkillme42069, DaReaperMan, Arceus0x, azontr, AbaddonTheDissappointment, Lord_JJJ, Bernkastell, M1ntyIc3CreamXZ, Guardian_Doge, Starsprite53, ThatOneMofo, Apex_PredatorX, Greenshifter, sanicspood, Pokemonfan807, The_Pink_God, Livinmeme, Sus, GilverTheProtoAngelo, Ottavio_Merluzzo, Delta333)
Disagreement: 6 (Everything12, Gohanblanco217, Seol404, Efficiente, Gabbs22_Gamer, Elizhaa)
Neutral: 5 (y3p_owo, Brak, ElexirBlue, HammerStrikes219, Tarang123)
 
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i'd argue about the non-scaling part as Magolor did nuke the road but this is an argument for another day
 
The FAQ just says the space needs to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum in nature. Or that it needs to be qualitatively superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse. AD fills both of those criterias when it really only needs one. It's not "more real" than the dimensions it transcends, but it doesn't need to be since that's not how all Low 1-C realms work. It's a "bulk space" between and beyond dimensions.

If what you say is actually agreed upon, not only does it bring up many questions, but it needs to be clarified in the FAQ.
 
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Nah the next Kirby game probably

But yeah, currently neutral and just gonna watch how this all plays out.
 
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Looking over the blog, I don't think nitpicking the exact meaning of the kanji involved is very optimal when it comes to proving Low 1-C, especially since most of these have quite a few different definitions than the ones you provide.

For instance, "超え" (Which seems to be derived from 超える) can also translated as "to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of)", which certainly fits more with the context of the statements, which seem to be referring to an inter-dimensional tunnel leading to another dimension apart from the normal timeline, and given that the other statements use similar characters and are mostly just reiterating the same thing, it's safe to assume the same applies to them. So, abusing buzzwords like that probably won't fly here, especially not in light of that context.

"Space between dimensions" is also excessively vague, and assuming it to be some all-encompassing bulk in which universes are embedded seems to require quite a few leaps of logic, made particularly obvious by how it's referred to as a tunnel leading to Another Dimension and described in terms that more closely resemble a portal or a gateway than anything else.

Another Dimension's road was stated to be extra-dimensional and beyond the space-time continuum, along with being part of an Extra Dimension (which is a real life term to describe qualitatively higher dimensions) beyond space and time.
Click to expand...

"Extra-dimensional" is an adjective that's constantly used to refer to things pertaining to other universes and the like, and given what these scans are referring to, the same applies here, so you'd need vastly better evidence to show that they are indeed referring to higher-dimensional space or similar. Likewise, "beyond the space-time continuum" is a description that'd be perfectly fine to use in reference to anything that's outside of the boundaries of a given spacetime, including parallel universes existing on the same general "level" as it, so, without the above statements serving as the meat of the argument, those scans are all pretty useless.

So, yeah, all-in-all, I don't see no Low 1-C here.
 
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Ultima, I don't think you realise it, but in trying to debunk my point, you accidentally supported it. If the variable definition of the kanjis is your only argument against me, then your entire foundation falls apart when you realize that the link you just sent has its two definitions depend entirely on which kanji is used as the lead.
213387822_1842814182546335_7843317180245313291_n.jpg

As you can see, "越える" means crossing over or passing through, while "超える" means exceeding or surpassing. Kirby uses the second one in almost all of its scans. If you need more proof, take another look at the very same link you just sent and look at the the examples used in "Sentences". You'll see that each and every one of the sentences that use "超える" refer to an actual superiority.
 
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And idk nearly enough kanji to support your argument here cause I'm literally on the baseline of japanesem
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
If the variable definition of the kanjis is your only argument against me, then your entire foundation falls apart when you realize that the link you just sent has its two definitions depend entirely on which kanji is used as the lead.
Click to expand...
That wasn't really the foundation of my argument, no, hence why I said "especially not in light of that context" at the end of the first paragraph up there. My point is that every single scan you've used as justification for Low 1-C in that blog uses "beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on to refer to how the inter-dimensional road leads to a parallel universe, and therefore to the outside of the main universe's spacetime, which doesn't really hint towards the uncountably infinite/qualitative superiority that an upgrade to this tier would require. Taking into account what a statement is talking about to begin with is more important than hyper-focusing on specific terms, especially ones that are very subjective and liable to receive several different interpretations, many of which don't align with a VS Debating mindset at all.

Under those terms, such a thing could pretty easily be accomplished by a 4-dimensional object, much like how (As an example, mind) you, a 3-D being, would naturally exist outside of the spacetime of a reality comprised of two spatial dimensions + 1 temporal, and that's taking the best possible assumptions in regards to those statements, too, since you can obviously also be apart from some structure without any alteration to your size.
 
Arceus0x said:
I am following the argument and I'm glad that the debunk isn't just "dOeSn'T fIT sTAnDArDs"
Click to expand...
It's not like that argument was ever an option since I went out of my way to prove that it does fit our standards.
Arceus0x said:
And idk nearly enough kanji to support your argument here cause I'm literally on the baseline of japanesem
But if what you just said is right then there is still a chance
Click to expand...
Should I move you to Neutral then? I'd love to have you on the side of Agreement, but you really don't seem sure.

Ultima_Reality said:
That wasn't really the foundation of my argument, no, hence why I said "especially not in light of that context" at the end of the first paragraph up there.
Click to expand...
Alright. Thanks for clarifying. Just to be sure, you acknowledge your mistake on that part and don't believe in it anymore, right?
Ultima_Reality said:
My point is that every single scan you've used as justification for Low 1-C in that blog uses "beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on to refer to how the inter-dimensional road leads to a parallel universe, and therefore to the outside of the main universe's spacetime, which doesn't really hint towards the uncountably infinite/qualitative superiority that an upgrade to this tier would require.
Click to expand...
How would being greater than/exceeding something not mean you're qualitatively superior to it? That's what "超える" means. If they wanted to say the road is just a wormhole outside of the main universe, they would have used "越える". Like I said, transcend isn't a fluid term in Japanese and the descriptions are pretty damn consistent, What you seem to be saying is that the road is qualitatively superior to space-time, but not by an infinite amount. Can you explain to me how that would work and how the FAQ even supports what you're saying?
Ultima_Reality said:
Taking into account what a statement is talking about to begin with is more important than hyper-focusing on specific terms, especially ones that are very subjective and liable to receive several different interpretations, many of which don't align with a VS Debating mindset at all.

Under those terms, such a thing could pretty easily be accomplished by a 4-dimensional object, much like how (As an example, mind) you, a 3-D being, would naturally exist outside of the spacetime of a reality comprised of two spatial dimensions + 1 temporal, and that's taking the best possible assumptions in regards to those statements, too, since you can obviously also be apart from some structure without any alteration to your size.
Click to expand...
So you believe that Another Dimension is a 4D space that contains other 4D space-time continuums without necessarily being infinitely superior to them. Am I getting this right?
 
If i had to say, in a line from 100% disagree to 100% agree, I'd be around 30% agree.
Might seem low but that means I'm 130% away from disagreeing.
 
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