Kirby Cosmology Upgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

How would being greater than/exceeding something not mean you're qualitatively superior to it? That's what "超える" means. If they wanted to say the road is just a wormhole outside of the main universe, they would have used "越える". Like I said, transcend isn't a fluid term in Japanese and the descriptions are pretty damn consistent, What you seem to be saying is that the road is qualitatively superior to space-time, but not by an infinite amount. Can you explain to me how that would work and how the FAQ even supports what you're saying?

"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.

So you believe that Another Dimension is a 4D space that contains other 4D space-time continuums without necessarily being infinitely superior to them. Am I getting this right

I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.

 

[Arceus0x]

The thing that lies at the end of the tunnel is Halcandra which isn't inside AD and is pretty much unrelated i believe unless I'm missing sth.

Pepto will probably provide the scans and explanation necessary

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Agree with this CRT

 

[Braking]

im Neutral on this rn

 

[Peptocoptr27]

"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.

There's alot to unpack, here. Before I do, let me ask one more question. If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?

I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.

No, Another Dimension isn't on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel. Either it is the tunnel or it contains the tunnel within itself. Meanwhile, Magolor's universe is no different from Kirby's. They're both regular timelines contained in AD. I elaborate why in my blog. Even Effi agrees that it contains universes as seen in the last thread. Granted, he also says that AD doesn't necessarily make up the space between all dimensions, which is weird, but let's save that for when he actually shows up.

 

[Greenshifter]

Agree with Pepto’s blog. I’m no expert on Japanse though. But I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.

 

[sanicspood]

i agree with the op

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

"Koeru," as far as I see, still just means "surpass," "exceed," "beyond," "transcend" and so on, and even outside of that, a quick search on Google already shows several different sentences where "超える" and "越える" are used to express the exact same things, and even the specific kanji that you focus on still seem to carry the same conotation regardless.

Given all of this, we'd just treat the term in the same way that we treat the english terms, and this falls under another notice in the FAQ, where it's made pretty clear that buzzwords like that aren't automatic passes to qualify for any tier, and that the surrounding context behind a phrase is more relevant than them. "Beyond" and "exceed" themselves can be interpreted as just meaning you are outside of some structure, like I said, and in cases where there's 0 evidence supporting the higher interpretation, we go with the more conservative (i.e lower) one.


I haven't seem much evidence suggesting that Another Dimension embeds the whole spacetime of the main universe within itself, and the fact that it's described as being on the far end of an inter-dimensional tunnel seems to contradict that idea, so, not really arguing that, no.

Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bump

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

What has been discussed and what more is needed? I haven’t been following the thread.

Bump

Could you give a bullet point of the discussion so far?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

We're discussing a Kirby cosmology upgrade from 2-C to Low 1-C. I'm in favor of it along with most other people. What's needed is some staff agreement.

Everything12 disagrees. He says that a superiority over space-time or dimensions needs to be proven to be uncountably infinite in order to qualify, but the tiering system FAQ simply says that it needs to be established as qualitatively superior to those concepts to be valid, so that argument isn't supported by our current standards.

Ultima disagrees because he thinks that my focus on the kanjis "超える" and "越える" is nitpicky, and that they both mean the same thing (which is something I'll tackle after he answers my most recent question).

Both of them say that simply being beyond space-time and dimensions isn't enough to qualify for Low 1-C. The main problem with this is that the kanjis used in the original Kirby texts actually imply a qualitative superiority when referring to Another Dimension's transcendence. Not to mention there's a few contextual clues that support it even further.

I assume you're asking for bullet points because you're busy, but I very highly recommend you read my blog to get a better understanding.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Everything12 disagrees. He says that a superiority over space-time or dimensions needs to be proven to be uncountably infinite in order to qualify, but the tiering system FAQ simply says that it needs to be established as qualitatively superior to those concepts to be valid, so that argument isn't supported by our current standards.

Deleting my last post as I quickly realized my mistake.

Quote:
"Simply transcending a single 4-D structure wouldn't take into account of transcending all of them.

It's like being 2-C. You can destroy multiple 4-D structures, but it's just multiple 4-D structures. And there can be up to an infinite amount. Much like Low 2-C: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Shown here, 4-D is being infinitely above 3-D. The same goes for tier 1 as a whole. You need to be a higher infinite. Not stay in the same level of infinite by adding more of the same infinite.

Quoting the tier 1 section, "Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

Sorry, I can't agree with the CRT right now.

 

[Arceus0x]

Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Quote:
"Simply transcending a single 4-D structure wouldn't take into account of transcending all of them.

I've shown evidence that it transcends all of them, but even if it only transcended one, why would that matter? The tier 1 requirements simply state that you need to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum as a whole, not every space-time continuum in the cosmology (although I assume that would come with it). What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?

It's like being 2-C. You can destroy multiple 4-D structures, but it's just multiple 4-D structures. And there can be up to an infinite amount. Much like Low 2-C: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Shown here, 4-D is being infinitely above 3-D. The same goes for tier 1 as a whole. You need to be a higher infinite. Not stay in the same level of infinite by adding more of the same infinite.

This right here looks alot more than a support to my argument than a refute. Being Low 1-C is indeed like being 2-C, but on an infinitely higher scale, and in this case, the space of AD is qualitatively larger than not only 3D space, but also 4D time, which, as you said, is qualitatively superior to an infinitely sized 3D space. AD is also stated to be superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse, which includes 4D space-time continuums. It sounds like you're saying that AD is finitely larger than an infinite concept. So I'll just ask again how that makes any sense.

Quoting the tier 1 section, "Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

The FAQ also says:
"However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions."
and
"Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."
You can't even say that this is just me taking the FAQ out of context, because other Low 1-C upgrades operate by the same logic according to staff. I really don't want to bring Archie Sonic into this, but if I have to, I'll compare them side by side and show you that they meet the same requirements (albeit for slightly different reasons)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Quick question and not in dismissal of your other points, does Kirby have a 2-A cosmology like Archie Sonic to transcend above?

Pretty sure the Kirby Cosmology at the moment is only 2-C

 

[ElixirBlue]

Shoot, I was going to rewrite that.

But yeah, I don’t believe the cosmologies are one-to-one to compare.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I am very quick on the draw when I'm checking notifications lol

 

[ElixirBlue]

DaReaperMan:

 

[Peptocoptr27]

They're not one to one to compare, but they don't need to be. If I'm allowed to derail, I can show you why, but first, you and Ultima still have to answer my questions. Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with? Once again, the FAQ and the tiering system don't say anything about that being a requirement.

 

[DaReaperMan]

DaReaperMan:

DaReaperMan:

get it right.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with?

That’s better for Ultima to answer. He is ultimately more experienced than I.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Alright then. That's two questions for Ultima and one for you.

I've shown evidence that it transcends all of them, but even if it only transcended one, why would that matter? The tier 1 requirements simply state that you need to be qualitatively superior to the space-time continuum as a whole, not every space-time continuum in the cosmology (although I assume that would come with it). What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?

This right here looks alot more than a support to my argument than a refute. Being Low 1-C is indeed like being 2-C, but on an infinitely higher scale, and in this case, the space of AD is qualitatively larger than not only 3D space, but also 4D time, which, as you said, is qualitatively superior to an infinitely sized 3D space. AD is also stated to be superior to the pre-established dimensions of the verse, which includes 4D space-time continuums. It sounds like you're saying that AD is finitely larger than an infinite concept. So I'll just ask again how that makes any sense.

I'm still counting all of the votes of those who disagree with the CRT, but I find it very odd how it's 100% staff and yet next to none of the arguments are even remotely supported by the Tiering System FAQ.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically

Oh yeah. You also have this to answer.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically

Oh yeah. You also have this to answer.

Well, if you want me to answer.

My opinion is focusing on getting 2-C for now. I’m still in the process of learning how to help accept tier 1 stuff. But from what I’m told, the blog is missing the necessary requirement for tier 1.

Also, have you check this page out?

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Also, have you check this page out?

The fact that you're asking me this question despite the fact that I've been quoting the FAQ ever since the start of this discussion brings your overall disagreement with my CRT into question. It also means you haven't even read my blog, since it directly quotes the FAQ to prove that Low 1-C Kirby cosmology is up to date with our current standards. You NEED to catch up, man. Don't just blindly disagree with something just because other staff members do. At least read the blog...

My opinion is focusing on getting 2-C for now. I’m still in the process of learning how to help accept tier 1 stuff.

We already HAVE 2-C. Kirby cosmology has been 2-C for a long long while now. Kirby's tier may not be 2-C but I already said that this thread isn't a tier upgrade. Also, if you're still in the process of learning how to accept tier 1 stuff, why don't you go Neutral? Were you neutral this whole time and I just misunderstood what you meant by "I can't agree with this CRT right now"?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Don't just blindly disagree with something just because other staff members do. At least read the blog...

Oh, I didn’t “disagree” because other staff did. Other users (non-staff) on the site aware of the CRT disagreed and I asked why in which they explained.

Ultimately, I realize I didn’t enough knowledge to help out with Kirby’s CRT to help his verse reach tier 1.

Also, if you're still in the process of learning how to accept tier 1 stuff, why don't you go Neutral? Were you neutral this whole time and I just misunderstood what you meant by "I can't agree with this CRT right now"?

I made a comment earlier giving support to this CRT and saying I agreed with the blog. I deleted it, which is why I said,

Sorry, I can't agree with the CRT right now.

in case you saw it.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I didn't see it, but I would have liked to, because right now, I don't see any good reason for you to disagree tbh. If you've read the blog, you can see that it follows the standards of the FAQ. All of the counter-arguments I've seen either rely on stuff that isn't a part of the official requirements or how I translated the kanjis. I guess all we can do is wait for Ultima to show up and answer this butt-load of questions we have for him... Then if you want, I can elaborate on the kanjis used in the Kirby descriptions and how the tier 1 evidence is just as compelling for him as it is Archie Sonic (and many other series).

 

[ElixirBlue]

I’ll still follow. I’m officially Neutral.
Sorry for the derail.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

agree

 

[Peptocoptr27]

List of questions for Ultima. I'm gonna go message him real quick. He seems to have forgotten about this.

Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???

Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with?

What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?

Do you think the statements can in any way affect the tier? I still agree with low 1-C but I'm asking your opinion specifically

If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?

I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, I just crawled back from the abyss. Sorry for any interference my absence may have caused.

Hmm, so what do you propose to be the tier???

I'm not knowledgeable on Kirby, so, no idea on that one, but as far as I see the statements themselves are unquantifiable.

Also, why would the Kirby verse having infinite universes even matter to a Low 1-C ranking to begin with?

It doesn't really matter, no. If you hold an uncountably infinite superiority over a Low 2-C structure, you're Low 1-C. Everything between 2-C and 2-A is just an extension of Low 2-C as is, so they're included in that.

What tier would being qualitatively superior to some 4D structures, but not all of them belong to? And again, how does that even work?

That doesn't really make much sense, no, and as for why, refer to the response immediately above this one.

If, hypothetically, Another Dimension was confirmed to be beyond the mathematical concept of dimensions and not simply beyond parallel dimensions/universes, would that qualify for Low 1-C?

If it's just qualitatively superior to the dimensions that physically exist in the setting, then, assuming the verse only consists of standard 4-dimensional spacetime, that'd be a Low 1-C feat. Transcending the mathematical concept of dimensions as a whole would be defaulted to 1-A, though, and in principle can go even higher, so you'll probably need some really good back-up for that claim.

I fail to see how something that’s described as beyond/transcending time and dimensions isn’t low 1-C by the tiering system. Even if it’s a “tunnel” of sorts connecting dimensions, don’t see why it can’t be a 5D bulk space and I also don’t see how some regular inter-dimensional tunnel would be described as superior to space-time and dimensions in whatever language.

My point to begin with was moreso that terms like "Beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on don't really indicate superiority on their own, and can just as well indicate that something is external to a given structure, which we never took as evidence for the degree of superiority needed for Low 1-C, at least not without more context supporting it.

 

[Tarang123]

I don’t know enough about Kirby to make a definitive answer, but I assume that people are already somewhat knowledgeable on the tiering system, so as long as the cosmology follows that, then I have no problems with Low 1C

 

[Peptocoptr27]

So, I just crawled back from the abyss. Sorry for any interference my absence may have caused.

Lol, it's fine. I get it. Just by looking at your message wall, you seem kind of overworked. I just hope you stick around in this thread a while longer, because I still see no reason why this shouldn't be Low 1-C by our tiering system's own logic.

I'm not knowledgeable on Kirby, so, no idea on that one, but as far as I see the statements themselves are unquantifiable.

Which means that if the kanjis "超える" do refer to a superiority, rather than being outside or crossing something. you'll accept this as Low 1-C? That would make sense since it is what the FAQ says, but alot of people in numerous threads are saying that said superiority needs to be proven to be infinite, which is a ridiculous demand in this context. They seem to be making up new requirements that aren't even in the FAQ just to deny an upgrade.

It doesn't really matter, no. If you hold an uncountably infinite superiority over a Low 2-C structure, you're Low 1-C. Everything between 2-C and 2-A is just an extension of Low 2-C as is, so they're included in that.

That doesn't really make much sense, no, and as for why, refer to the response immediately above this one.

Alright. Glad we agree on that. Elexir was the one who brought up these misconceptions, but I'm not even sure if he believes them himself or if he just thinks that was how the Wiki standards worked. Either way, we figured it was best to ask you, and now it should be easier to compare Kirby to Archie Sonic with this in mind (although I still don't want to resort to this).

If it's just qualitatively superior to the dimensions that physically exist in the setting, then, assuming the verse only consists of standard 4-dimensional spacetime, that'd be a Low 1-C feat. Transcending the mathematical concept of dimensions as a whole would be defaulted to 1-A, though, and in principle can go even higher, so you'll probably need some really good back-up for that claim.

Oh god no. There's nothing else to back-up 1-A Kirby cosmology. I really don't want it to be legit anyway. However, I still think what I'm about to show you would serve as good evidence for Low 1-C since it makes it undeniably clear that a qualitative superiority to a concept is what they're referring to rather than just being outside of something. I'm gonna compile all of the Low 1-C evidence that didn't make it into my blog (because I didn't think it was necessary) and put it in my next post. In the meantime, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on Kirby cosmology being "Likely" or "Possibly" Low 1-C.

My point to begin with was moreso that terms like "Beyond," "exceed," "transcend" and so on don't really indicate superiority on their own, and can just as well indicate that something is external to a given structure, which we never took as evidence for the degree of superiority needed for Low 1-C, at least not without more context supporting it.

As far as context goes, it makes up the space between dimensions, and acts as a gateway to any space-time coordinate in the multiverse including the past of the distant realm of the Dream Kingdom. I explain this in my blog, and this seems like enough evidence that it's a bulk space given the other blatant statements.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I don’t know enough about Kirby to make a definitive answer, but I assume that people are already somewhat knowledgeable on the tiering system, so as long as the cosmology follows that, then I have no problems with Low 1C

Is that a neutral vote or an agreement vote?

 

[Tarang123]

Is that a neutral vote or an agreement vote?

neutral, for now

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bump

 

[The_Pink_God]

Already agreed on this once and doing it again

 

[Foxthefox1000]

"Transcending" doesn't have to give a higher-dimensionality by default.

It easily could just mean existing separately from a place which doesn't say much for a tiering. I feel like our standards for Tier 1 would be really low if any and all "transcending" dimensions statements meant the verse is Tier 1.

In the Mario thread that got closed down, it was argued you need definitive proof beyond "transcending" that this other realm characters transcend to is qualitatively superior. I'm seeing none of that here, personally.

You can quite literally say "it connects other dimensions and universes" and these statements of "exceeding" and "transcending" would still be accurate. AD could simply just be a bigger separate 4-D structure linking to the rest of the worlds/universes/dimensions. The proof for exceeding time has a direct mention that placing the Galacta Knight thing on the timeline is hard because the road exceeds/transcends time and all that. Isn't this literally just another way of saying "time works different" for AD? It exceeds other's concept of time because time behaves differently, thus allowing for temporal anomalies as well as spacial ones. It's not saying time doesn't exist there at all, is it? Has that ever been stated? We need more than "exceeding time" because you could also descrive a character resisting time stop as "exceeding" of being "beyond" time.

Better proof were if we had a statement of it transcending universes AND dimensions, showing a clear distinction in what they mean by "dimensions" because the universes themselves are treated as and often referred to as dimensions. "Extra-dimensional" (you can have another dimension exists without it having to automatically be assumed to be a higher mathematical dimension), space between dimensions (which can very likely mean universes as we know Kirby uses them interchangeably), and arguing semantics behind translations isn't exactly great proof. It's all vague and highly interpretational. I feel like Tier 1 deserves more definitive qualifications as these seem rather, err... Generous, to say the least.

So no, I don't really ageee at the moment.