Kingdom Hearts Series: The Tier 2 stuff

[Bobsican]

What Pocket Realm are you discussing and how is it universe sized? The World of Light is a universe in its totality hence 3-A. It's not a pocket realm. It's not that hard to understand....this is getting asinine...

1: Once More, Matt actually argumented towards taking the segment in the KH Manga that suggests that each "World" is simply a Pocket Dimension or something like that. Make of that what you will.

2: Wasn´t the World of Light denied being an universe by our standards or something like that?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

1) Even if we accept this (which was argued against above but if it supports tier 2 I guess it's okay confirmation bias at it's finest.) they are not 3-A or Low 2-C.

2) No? World of light being a universe is why it's 3-A.

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, in that case Low 2-C can still be reached as the timeline was stated to also be potentially affected via what´s at the OP (3-A + time = Low 2-C)

And it´s worth to mention that the Ultimania Entry (which is at the OP) states that:

"Kingdom Hearts"

"A condensed form of the hearts of this world. Also known as the kingdom of hearts or the center of worlds. It also is the source of great power and a source of endless knowledge."

Now, then...

"Hearts"

"In the world of Kingdom Hearts, not restricted to just people and animals, but every existence contains a heart. The collection of all kinds of hearts would become the great heart ― Kingdom Hearts."

Considering that each "World" containing its own timeline was accepted, combine that with the current 3-A reasoning, and you get Low 2-C, aka, something like this:

"Low Multiverse level (Is comparable to Sora, Donald and Goofy, who can keep up with Xehanort while wielding the true Kingdom Hearts alongside the X-Blade, to remake the entire universe (which contains multiple timelines within itself) in his image and cover all the worlds in darkness)" (Only affecting the "current" 3-A rating nearly everyone has.

- A rough basic template for the (potentially) affected profiles that aren´t, well, Sora, Donald, Goofy or Xehanort.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

""A condensed form of the hearts of this world. Also known as the kingdom of hearts or the center of worlds. It also is the source of great power and a source of endless knowledge.""

Means nothing at all in terms of tiers.

""In the world of Kingdom Hearts, not restricted to just people and animals, but every existence contains a heart. The collection of all kinds of hearts would become the great heart ― Kingdom Hearts.""

Yeah, worlds have hearts. The hearts themselves are not planetary or universal.

"Considering that each "World" containing its own timeline was accepted, combine that with the current 3-A reasoning, and you get Low 2-C, aka, something like this:"

That's not how that works. A separate timeline for a planet sized realm is not Low 2-C. Once again, separate flows of time mean nothing.

 

[Bobsican]

That's not how that works. A separate timeline for a planet sized realm is not Low 2-C. Once again, separate flows of time mean nothing.

Even if such timelines are affected alongside the 3-A part that´s already accepted?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Where does it even say each timeline is affected? Even then, unless it destroys all the space time of the universe. Not to mention that Xehanort said nothing about destroying the time of the world.

 

[Bobsican]

Xehanort stated that it was going to bring a "new start", after he was talking about the demise of the worlds by the darkness, it´s to be noted that he also did it at the "nexus of all worlds" for a reason.

And he isn´t genocidal, he isn´t going to kill literally everything for it, it would be counterproductive, and considering he already has Time Manipulation, Low 2-C isn´t that much of an stretch from 3-A

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The first part doesn't make it Low 2-C and the second link literally means nothing at all...Do can destroy the world and recreate it without destroying the time flow. Having Time Manipulation also means nothing here.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Manipulating time =/= destroying it.

 

[Bobsican]

The problem is that destroying the world would kill anything besides himself for obvious reasons, which he wouldn´t do as he just wants to dictate the destiny of everyone to prevent darkness from existing in anyone´s heart.

Which would lead into time axis having to be affected to meet the criteria, unless you can think of a better way or something.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

From Ever;

"Bob that is literally what he's trying to do, and how does affecting time stop this from being a supposed issue?"

 

[Bobsican]

No, he wants to bring a "new start", not to bring genocide to then build up his own civilization (remember, he was always friend of Eraqus for a reason even after all of this), and the time part would fix the problem of having genocide by... now that I think about it, I won´t even bother as it get sinto headcanon territory after a lot of thinking.

But there´s still somethign new I found:

Xehanort actually states that now that he got beaten up, Scala Ad Caelum will be purged and so returned to darkness, meaning that Kingdom Hearts purpose was to actually make a new "World" to then bring everyone to it by controlling the "Hearts" it (the Hearts parts borrowed thanks to the lore known in the Ultimatia Entry).

Which would either lead to a downgrade back to "At least High 4-C" as WoL doesn´t appear to have been taken in mind to begin with or an upgrade to Low 2-C via making an entire universe with a timeline.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just stop pushing for the Low 2-C / 2-B Bob.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

stop trying to prematurely end CRTs Matt

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Matt, Ever, and Dragon. There's simply not enough context for Tier 2.

 

[Seol404]

Just stop pushing for the Low 2-C / 2-B Bob.

I don't agree with the revision, but just telling him to stop doesn't debunk his arguments. Either put forward evidence against his argument like Dragonmaster is doing, or just don't be part of the conversation.

 

[Dziga]

I feel like just telling to stop while providing almost nothing other then snarky one-liners isn't helping much and is pretty disrespectful. As much as you want to disagree with him, he is putting a lot of effort into trying to prove his point.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with the stuff above, some elaboration about why there´s still stuff missing for any upgrade would be nice.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I may have something to tell about this. First, HOW THE HELL DID WE GET HERE (to 2-B i mean) ?!? Really, 2-C seems ok to me but 2-B ? Really ? Or maybe it's not in the balance anymore ?

For the universal thing, in the movie, Hades is specifically saying that there is an entire cosmos to rule and it's the same thing in the game for his world. So we can assume Olympus is universal in size (wich is consistent with the Gods and Titans thing, assuming that primordial Gods like Ouranos could exist since Gaea herself exists). Plus, Zeus's feat appears to be very casual to him. So that would confirm the universal-size thing (and could justify Zeus being noted as "At least High 4-C", rather than simply "High 4-C".

Then comes my eternal problem : what about the Realm of Darkness ?. It seems pretty evident that Xehanort only intended to erase and recreate the Realm of Light, not the Realm of Darkness, mostly because he knew it was impossible. It's actually one of the reasons why his plan was foiled : his goal was to create universe than would have been perfectly balanced (get out of here, Thanos !) but he tried to change things only in the RoL and not in the RoD (not that he could have change things). The main problem being that apparently, Darkness are older than Light and Light apparently comes from KH, wich would mean Darkness are "older" than KH and thus KH cannot really affect the realm. So basically, Xehanort wouldn't have been able to change anything in the RoD.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

A thing i thought about (it will rather sounds stupid but still) : how exactly are we sure that every world is universal ? Worlds like Olympus and Lilo and Stitch's are obviously at least cosmic and so universal. But what about other worlds ? From what we can tell, worlds like Enchanted Dominion (Maleficent's world) can easily be only planet-size since nothing indicates it goes beyond planet-scale. After all, each world is different from another, in shape but also in size. What exactly says that Mulan's world isn't only China and near-countries ? And Atlantica is obviously worldwide in size but nothing says it goes beyond.

Again, the universal thing seems good to me but that's detail that could be important i think.

 

[Bobsican]

1: Didn´t Xemnas actually tried to do that in KHII and almost succeded were it not for Sora and Riku?

2: What is in the OP, simply put, stuff suggests that all "Worlds" are actually universes (in size).

As for 2-B, well, the OP explains that:

"There´s also how it´s stated that there´s a "countless" number of worlds, and considering the number of stars that can be seen in some places, this means that instead of 2-C, the stuff goes straight in 2-B"

 

[ArkhamDC06]

No, he didn't. The fight took places in TWTNW, then on his castle, then in the Void apparently (from what i can remember). Xemnas only created his own dimension within his version of KH (wich wasn't the true one) and he didn't affect the RoD. And besides, for all his power and the fact that he might be the strongest Seeker of Darkness (aside from Xehanort himself and likely or at least possibly above YX and Ansem), Xemnas hasn't enough power to perform such a feat. It's more than heavily implied that the RoD's size (if infinite Darkness can have a size) is the same that the RoL's (if not even bigger since, unlike the RoL, the RoD is mostly immaterial). Assuming the RoL alone is Tier 2 (and it likely is), Xemnas wouldn't have been able to do it.

Besides, Xehanort needed the True X-Blade to annihilate the current "World" a.k.a the Universe, wich is the RoL alone (or likely the RoL and the other realms but without the RoD). If Xehanort (who is likely more powerful alone than his otherselves, aside from his age that force him to be a Combat Pragmatist) needed the X-Blade and the True KH to do that for the RoL...

Still have doubts about this being THAT big but still sounds good in a way. If any world is universal in size, has its own day and night cycle and flow of time and if each star represents a world, that brings the verse up to Tier 2 obviously. Wich doesn't bother me since i really like the KH verse (not the one i love the most, especially compared to Batman Arkham or Assassin's Creed, but still).

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I remember the cosmos statement about Olympus in KH3 (because remember Hades , like The whole situation regarding Lilos world isn't aware of the outside world)... Which actually does makes sense considered the whole creating stars feat... You can't even see it outside of the world either... Only within it.

Also yeah evwry every explicitly stated Tier 4 feat was insanely casual...

If worlds have their own time axis, and we can prove at least 1 world is Tier 3 with a different time axis (thusly Tier 2)... Then the feats of destroying all worlds would likely get upgraded.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

However, there is no world that is 3-A in size.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Olympus could possibly be. It holds an entire cosmos as stated above and apparently Primordial Gods like Gaea exist (she shows up in the series) so others like Ouranos and Chaos itself likely exist and they should be considered as cosmic in terms of power and possibly size since they're embodiement of cosmic forces. And it's proven that each world has its own time axis and night and day circle. Again, Olympus : in BBS, Hercules is a teenager and by the time of KH III, it's the end of the animated movie, wich takes place 10 years later.

Though i don't see any other world that could be universal in size. Maybe each world being a universe isn't clearly meaning universe by the common sense. Maybe they're indeed universes but smaller than "regular" universes.

 

[Seol404]

Olympus having a "cosmos" is only 4-A

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

There is also the fact that Olympos can be the exception and not the rule.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Is this still going?

 

[Bobsican]

Yes.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Seol404 Yeah regulary but having a cosmos could be universal. Though it's an idea.

Dragonmasterxyz Sounds like it. Worlds like The Caribbean or Echanted Dominion simply seems to be worldwize. Though that would still be possible for the verse to be Tier 2.

 

[Bobsican]

Now that I remember, there´s also an statement from Nomura reffering the Toy Story stuff as an "universe".

Wouldn´t that make it tier 2 in size?

 

[Seol404]

Can you provide proof of this statement? (Like a link to the ineterview or whatever?)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Bob if you provide the statement it likely would be.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh wait, nevermind, he used the term "world" actually.

""In terms of Toy Story's timeline, it takes place after the events of the second film. It doesn't take place in a parallel world, but think of it as Kingdom Hearts III's happenings as being part of the Toy Story timeline.""

RIP

But an argument can still be made fo the size of the Hercules "world", as they even say stuff of the "cosmos" and all.

 

[Bobsican]

"The whole cosmos is basically waiting for me to, you know, conquer it!"

 

[Seol404]

I'm pretty sure that any realm containing multiple stars is merely to be treated as 4-A unless stated or shown to be higher.

 

[Bobsican]

Then that goes too.

Man this now feels like how Illumina went but worse.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Conquering something doesn't mean you have the power to one shot it. And also, it's one thing that this is still going on, but the Toy Story stuff again?

 

[Bobsican]

Well, this one is not for trying to make it canon, but rather the size of it.

In the end there´s nothing actually calling it an "universe" so that one can just be skipped.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Even if it was a universe conquering it wouldn't be an AP feat.