Kingdom Hearts Multiplier Scaling

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't like to use realistic implications use a method of judgement, with this logic keyblades would be shitty weapons and a lot of other stuff made to look cool would be dangerous, unnecessary, not convenient etc., we are talking about a verse that heavily plunges into fantasy when it comes to combat, using real life logic to push for something is something I won't accept, especially when the original information is vague and comes from a secondary source.
At this point we are just bashing out heads onto each other's with the same arguments, this can only be solved with votes.

Peter Pan's inconsistent affair might be solved with a varies or a combination of likely/possibly for the ratings, it might be more consistent due to making sense in two games over one, but it there still is a discrepancy.

You can use in-verse perspective if this is stated, mentioned or referred in the games. Just because Drive forms are suddenly unavailable in the next game, it doesn't mean the characters actually realized they have better powers and discarded them, or just forgot how to use it.
I could make many examples of series changing mechanics, movesets and stuff from a game to another, but in-verse comparison should be made only if the story or the lore actually supports this with solid evidences.

The thing about the examples you mention and "twice the attack rate" is that your examples are directly shown or stated in the series and can therefore be accepted as things for whom real life logic doesn't quite apply to the same way like we generally do with fiction whereas the same cannot be said about two Keyblades doubling the attack rate. For anyone with any clear knowledge about the difficulties with dual wielding at all it's an incredibly unintuitive conclusion to make. The literal meaning of the term attack power and the showcase of increased strength with Roxas and Sora are by comparison far more directly derivable based on what we know and see and doesn't come with an unstated and undemonstrated contradiction with real life logic.

Taking the portrayals of two games over that of one single game would generally be more consistent with the series itself. Alternatively you could think of the showings from the two games as a kind of retcon to the perceived level of power they display in KHI since Birth by Sleep and KHII came chronologically after that game. I myself don't think that there is a particular problem with rating Peter Pan and Captain Hook that high. The only problems are it being weird and not really demonstrated in KHI and I don't think that either of these warrant not rating them that high when they have feats and showings on that level from two different installments of the franchise.

The thing is though that Sora did lose his powers at the end of 3D. If you check the KHIII tab of the Powers and Abilities section of Sora's profile, you'll see that we go with the notion that Sora doesn't have his Drive Forms from KHII any more in that game. Going by that notion you can see that Sora despite the fact of how he was able to attain the Drive Forms from the three fairies in The Mysterious Tower with little complications doesn't make any visible effort to regain them while essentially replacing them with Formchanges from a functional perspective. I'm not necessarily of the opinion that Formchanges are superior to Drive Forms. There is no evidence or implications for that. But I do see evidence and implications for them being at least on par with Drive Forms based on Sora being at his strongest and the functional replacement of said forms. You do not need direct statements to come to any conclusions about that. The actions and showings of a character should also be usable for an in-universe perspective.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not necessarily of the opinion that Formchanges are superior to Drive Forms. There is no evidence or implications for that. But I do see evidence and implications for them being at least on par with Drive Forms based on Sora being at his strongest and the functional replacement of said forms. You do not need direct statements to come to any conclusions about that.

Uh...

Also, Lingering Will is stated to use his Keyblade with more ease than Sora, and considering that LW was the first character showing such an act (Formchanging), and thus this act being clearly considered superior than just using two Keyblades... yeah.

And...
-- Keyblade transformations seem like a fun element in battle.

Nomura: My ideas for it came as far as from KINGDOM HEARTS II FINAL MIX, the main characters of KINGDOM HEARTS Birth by Sleep were able to transform their Keyblades, and once Sora is able to pass the Mark of Mastery in KINGDOM HEARTS 3D, he will be able to utilize magic to transform his Keyblade that can be ridden as a vehicle and many other great things.

The statement over LW using the Keyblade with more ease than KHII Sora (Which would obviously include Drive Forms) combined with his act of changing the form of his Keyblade being no different than the basic nature of Formchanges leads into me thinking Formchanges (And Command Styles, which LW would be using as Terra, like Aqua and Ventus) are above Drive Forms, not that it matters much if they remain unquantificable regardless.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Uh...

And...
-- Keyblade transformations seem like a fun element in battle.

Nomura: My ideas for it came as far as from KINGDOM HEARTS II FINAL MIX, the main characters of KINGDOM HEARTS Birth by Sleep were able to transform their Keyblades, and once Sora is able to pass the Mark of Mastery in KINGDOM HEARTS 3D, he will be able to utilize magic to transform his Keyblade that can be ridden as a vehicle and many other great things.

The statement over LW using the Keyblade with more ease than Sora combined with his act of changing the form of his Keyblade being no different than the basic nature of Formchanges leads into me thinking Formchanges are above Drive Forms, not that it matters much if they remain unquantificable regardless.

I guess we can go with there being an implied superiority then though my point about them being at least on par with Drive Forms still stands.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Saman, can you summarise the arguments here please?

@SamanPatou

 

[SamanPatou]

Another reason why I don't want to drag realistic implications in here is that the in-universe perspective doesn't necessarily follow the real one.
The manual says that Sora gets twice the attack power and abilities when he gets a second weapon.
Without further explanations it all falls down to interpretation, and personally I think the safest and most reasonable is that "twice" is used to refer to the second keyblade allowing for multiple attacks, instead of it working as a general amp.

I can settle on considering KH1 the outlier out of other two different showings, though I believe it should be somehow included on the profiles.
Something about which I had doubts was also because we don't see Peter and Sparky being that much of a challenge for Terra, so we don't know if they fully scale, but we don't even know how serious he was, so mine is kind of a moot point, admittedly.

I still don't see why they should be compared, even accounting the fact that Sora lost his abilities. Nomura thinks Formchanges are cool and they are a privilege for those who reached true mastery, but Drive forms are still out of the equation.
Imho, they could be compared because they are the standare "power up" Sora gets, but there isn't a real way to determine which one gives the higher boost, nor how much of a boost it is in raw numbers.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Another reason why I don't want to drag realistic implications in here is that the in-universe perspective doesn't necessarily follow the real one.
The manual says that Sora gets twice the attack power and abilities when he gets a second weapon.
Without further explanations it all falls down to interpretation, and personally I think the safest and most reasonable is that "twice" is used to refer to the second keyblade allowing for multiple attacks, instead of it working as a general amp.

I can settle on considering KH1 the outlier out of other two different showings, though I believe it should be somehow included on the profiles.
Something about which I had doubts was also because we don't see Peter and Sparky being that much of a challenge for Terra, so we don't know if they fully scale, but we don't even know how serious he was, so mine is kind of a moot point, admittedly.

I still don't see why they should be compared, even accounting the fact that Sora lost his abilities. Nomura thinks Formchanges are cool and they are a privilege for those who reached true mastery, but Drive forms are still out of the equation.
Imho, they could be compared because they are the standare "power up" Sora gets, but there isn't a real way to determine which one gives the higher boost, nor how much of a boost it is in raw numbers.

Isn't the default assumption for fiction that it is the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown though? Why should we consider the number of attacks that can be used in a certain timeframe to be relevant here when there is no actual indication of that? The only thing that would suggest a doubled attack rate here would be a flawed sense of common sense that doesn't clearly understand the intricacies of dual wielding. Things like magic and power amps are far more clear and established by comparison, you'd have to show how the verse's depiction of dual wielding suggests or at least opens up the possibility that dual wielding automatically doubles the rate at which you throw attacks at the enemies in contrast to reality.

I'm not sure if it is actually possible to include the perceived level of power from KHI without running into contradictions. KHI is chronologically in between BBS and KHII, we can't just randomly say that they were weaker in the in between time when something like that is nowhere referenced or clearly demonstrated.

The thing is that Sora could have simply regained his Drive Forms considering how uncomplicated getting them in KHII was. The fact that he didn't as far as we know should be proof enough that Formchanges are an adequate replacement for Drive Forms and that Sora therefore didn't need to regain them. Due to that I find it rather easy to conclude that they are most likely comparable in power. While it's true that we do not have a direct comparison simply knowing that they should be comparable should be enough. How much of a boost it would be in raw numbers isn't entirely necessary for us to know since we can simply note it as a boost and if the 2x multiplier for the second Keyblade in Drive Forms gets accepted, then we can simply apply that, so there isn't going to be much of a problem with raw numbers either way.

 

[Antvasima]

Another reason why I don't want to drag realistic implications in here is that the in-universe perspective doesn't necessarily follow the real one.
The manual says that Sora gets twice the attack power and abilities when he gets a second weapon.
Without further explanations it all falls down to interpretation, and personally I think the safest and most reasonable is that "twice" is used to refer to the second keyblade allowing for multiple attacks, instead of it working as a general amp.

I can settle on considering KH1 the outlier out of other two different showings, though I believe it should be somehow included on the profiles.
Something about which I had doubts was also because we don't see Peter and Sparky being that much of a challenge for Terra, so we don't know if they fully scale, but we don't even know how serious he was, so mine is kind of a moot point, admittedly.

I still don't see why they should be compared, even accounting the fact that Sora lost his abilities. Nomura thinks Formchanges are cool and they are a privilege for those who reached true mastery, but Drive forms are still out of the equation.
Imho, they could be compared because they are the standare "power up" Sora gets, but there isn't a real way to determine which one gives the higher boost, nor how much of a boost it is in raw numbers.

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I'll also advertise the other KH CRT while on it

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

I'll also advertise the other KH CRT while on it

This really isn't the time for a new CRT in my opinion but I can make summaries of the conclusions that have been made so far:

1. We have Xion getting her powers multiplied through three devices to the level of 4x KHI Sora with the assumption that each device added power equivalent to KHI Sora since all of her transformed states are described as having multiplied power.
2. Roxas as half of KHII Sora's power due to the general workings of Nobodies and several statements from which one comes from DiZ shortly before Roxas was put into the virtual Twillight Town.
3. Captain Hook and Peter Pan scaling to Sora's general level with Drive Forms in KHII due to BBS and the Peter Pan summon in KHII with there being some apparent weirdness with their portrayal in KHI.
4. Since SamanPatou didn't make any further comments about it I guess that he doesn't have any further objections to raise against 3D Sora scaling to his KHII self with Drive Forms due to him performing Drive Form like actions and fighting against Xemnas and KHIII Sora scaling to 3D Sora through being at his strongest in KHIII.
5. I guess absolutely nobody is going to contest Drive Forms being a boost, Roxas having gotten stronger through his second Keyblade and SamanPatou has mentioned how comparisons could be made between Drive Forms and Formchanges purely on the basis of them being standard power ups for their respective games.

What hasn't been settled is:

1. How SamanPatou's alternate explanation of the doubling of the attack rate through dual wielding despite the actual real life complications with that stacks up against the standard assumption of fiction being the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown. This is essential for the 2x multiplier for the second Keyblade and therefore the Synch Blade ability.
2. How the fact that Captain Hook and Peter Pan aren't exactly portrayed as superior in KHI can be included on the profiles without major contradictions.
3. If there is any actual possibility from an in-universe perspective that Formchanges are inferior to Drive Forms that SamanPatou is somehow seeing and failed to effectively communicate to me. This possibility would need to consider how getting the Drive Forms was rather uncomplicated for Sora in KHII and how he functionally replaced them with Formchanges in KHIII after losing his powers at the end of KH3D with the purpose of his journey being to regain his lost power and prepare against a major threat.

 

[Bobsican]

I'll also remind that as I've explained with the statements comparing Lingering Will's Formchanging to Drive Forms, the former is portrayed as a stronger action as one develops as a Keyblade Master.

 

[SamanPatou]

Isn't the default assumption for fiction that it is the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown though? Why should we consider the number of attacks that can be used in a certain timeframe to be relevant here when there is no actual indication of that? The only thing that would suggest a doubled attack rate here would be a flawed sense of common sense that doesn't clearly understand the intricacies of dual wielding. Things like magic and power amps are far more clear and established by comparison, you'd have to show how the verse's depiction of dual wielding suggests or at least opens up the possibility that dual wielding automatically doubles the rate at which you throw attacks at the enemies in contrast to reality.

I don't like my common sense being called flawed, and I do understand the intricacies of dual wielding, just like I understand a giant key isn't a proper weapon and the entire gameplay of the series is far from being even comparable to anything belonging in the real world, and I don't think we can just say that dual wielding is the precise exception just to justify a multiplier.
Also, the indication is that the manual says the attack power doubles when Sora gets a second weapon, and it would make perfectly sense for the merit to go to the ability to strike twice instead of just getting a power boost.
But, as I said, the main information itself is vague and there isn't a true answer to that.


Mayb we can use a note to include the Peter Pan thing, do as you like.

The thing is that Sora could have simply regained his Drive Forms considering how uncomplicated getting them in KHII was. The fact that he didn't as far as we know should be proof enough that Formchanges are an adequate replacement for Drive Forms and that Sora therefore didn't need to regain them.

We can't say that for sure without any reference of this in the game or elsewhere, for what's worth Drive forms were discarded just to replace them with a new game mechanic (which is what I also think).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't like my common sense being called flawed, and I do understand the intricacies of dual wielding, just like I understand a giant key isn't a proper weapon and the entire gameplay of the series is far from being even comparable to anything belonging in the real world, and I don't think we can just say that dual wielding is the precise exception just to justify a multiplier.
Also, the indication is that the manual says the attack power doubles when Sora gets a second weapon, and it would make perfectly sense for the merit to go to the ability to strike twice instead of just getting a power boost.
But, as I said, the main information itself is vague and there isn't a true answer to that.


Mayb we can use a note to include the Peter Pan thing, do as you like.



We can't say that for sure without any reference of this in the game or elsewhere, for what's worth Drive forms were discarded just to replace them with a new game mechanic (which is what I also think).

That's because the common sense is indeed flawed in this particular case. The only reason why anyone would think that having a second Keyblade would double the attack rate is that they don't really understand dual wielding all that well, so how can this be a reasonable assumption or interpretation when we actually know how that doesn't make much sense? Unless you can bring up an actual reason why that might be reasonable to think from an in-universe perspective your idea is on principle absolutely unacceptable to me. Besides, it's already canon that Drive Forms are a power boost, so why not put a concrete number on that instead of applying a misconception about dual wielding? Your other examples are by contrast fully established by the series and do not violate the standard assumption of fiction being the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown.

I'm not sure how much the note would help or be worth since I have no awareness of there being any antifeats for Peter Pan or Captain Hook in KHI that would definitely go against what they do in BBS and KHII but if anything can be included on the profile without major contradictions, then it would be that. I kind of had the same idea but I wanted to wait for your response to bring it up for discussion.

You should probably stop thinking about it in terms of game mechanics or any out-of-universe terms at all. My arguments are based on the in-universe perspective and you aren't going to disprove them without basing your arguments on the in-universe perspective as well.

If there is any actual possibility from an in-universe perspective that Formchanges are inferior to Drive Forms that SamanPatou is somehow seeing and failed to effectively communicate to me. This possibility would need to consider how getting the Drive Forms was rather uncomplicated for Sora in KHII and how he functionally replaced them with Formchanges in KHIII after losing his powers at the end of KH3D with the purpose of his journey being to regain his lost power and prepare against a major threat.

We can't just ignore the plot and purely focus on gameplay or game design. If you are of the opinion that the game developers simply replaced Drive Forms with Formchanges and didn't think about the plot implications and that we should therefore ignore any and all indications of them being comparable, then just say so.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Saman.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So far I still agree with Saman's points, evolved somewhat though they are. The dual wielding argument I am especially vehemently against.

 

[SamanPatou]

That's because the common sense is indeed flawed in this particular case. The only reason why anyone would think that having a second Keyblade would double the attack rate is that they don't really understand dual wielding all that well, so how can this be a reasonable assumption or interpretation when we actually know how that doesn't make much sense? Unless you can bring up an actual reason why that might be reasonable to think from an in-universe perspective your idea is on principle absolutely unacceptable to me. Besides, it's already canon that Drive Forms are a power boost, so why not put a concrete number on that instead of applying a misconception about dual wielding? Your other examples are by contrast fully established by the series and do not violate the standard assumption of fiction being the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown.

In-universe perspective isn't given, this thing also comes from a manual, not even a stament from a character.
And I don't see why we should assume the verse takes in so high consideration a realistic rule about dual wielding, just to ignore every other form of realism when it comes to combat.
The line itself is also very vague, you can't take that much out of it.

You should probably stop thinking about it in terms of game mechanics or any out-of-universe terms at all. My arguments are based on the in-universe perspective and you aren't going to disprove them without basing your arguments on the in-universe perspective as well.

We can't just ignore the plot and purely focus on gameplay or game design. If you are of the opinion that the game developers simply replaced Drive Forms with Formchanges and didn't think about the plot implications and that we should therefore ignore any and all indications of them being comparable, then just say so.

In-universe perspective isn't always possible, especially when talking about videogames, and game mechanics indeed exist.
Unless we have solid evidences from the game itself, I'm not going to consider Drive Forms and Formchanges to be directly comparable just because the former didn't return in a later game, especially if this isn't mentioned or referred.
The only thing I agree with is that they are unquantifiable power boosts, but it was obvious for everyone.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not going to consider Drive Forms and Formchanges to be directly comparable just because the former didn't return in a later game, especially if this isn't mentioned or referred.
The only thing I agree with is that they are unquantifiable power boosts, but it was obvious for everyone.

As it seems what I've said is being ignored...

Also, Lingering Will is stated to use his Keyblade with more ease than Sora, and considering that LW was the first character showing such an act (Formchanging), and thus this act being clearly considered superior than just using two Keyblades... yeah.

-- Keyblade transformations seem like a fun element in battle.

Nomura: My ideas for it came as far as from KINGDOM HEARTS II FINAL MIX, the main characters of KINGDOM HEARTS Birth by Sleep were able to transform their Keyblades, and once Sora is able to pass the Mark of Mastery in KINGDOM HEARTS 3D, he will be able to utilize magic to transform his Keyblade that can be ridden as a vehicle and many other great things.

The statement over LW using the Keyblade with more ease than KHII Sora (Which would obviously include Drive Forms) combined with his act of changing the form of his Keyblade being no different than the basic nature of Formchanges leads into me thinking Formchanges (And Command Styles, which LW would be using as Terra, like Aqua and Ventus) are above Drive Forms, not that it matters much if they remain unquantificable regardless.

While I can agree that they're unquantificable for the reasons you've mentioned, it still appears clear to me that Formchanges are above Drive Forms, even if still unquantificable as said before.

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think it's necessarily true, Terra might be unable to use Drive Forms or just doesn't know how to use them.
Formchanges being exclusive to Keyblade Masters means they require more skill with the weapon, but I don't see how their boost can be directly compared.

Also, aren't Drive Forms tied to KH2 Sora's clothes? He has different clothes in KH3, it's possible they weren't hardwired to allow the use of Drive Forms.

 

[Bobsican]

I don't think it's necessarily true, Terra might be unable to use Drive Forms or just doesn't know how to use them.
Formchanges being exclusive to Keyblade Masters means they require more skill with the weapon, but I don't see how their boost can be directly compared.

Also, aren't Drive Forms tied to KH2 Sora's clothes? He has different clothes in KH3, it's possible they weren't hardwired to allow the use of Drive Forms.

Well, Sora had the same clothes as in KHII at the start of KHIII, and he no longer could use Drive Forms, in fact, while with the same clothing he used Second Form instead in Olympus at that part where the building was collapsing.

Drive Forms are more of an exclusive ability of sorts to Sora given that no other character but him or Roxas dual wield Keyblades, especially considering that such usage is based on Ventus being inside Sora granting them a second Keyblade, and so I'd say it's separate from changing the form of a Keyblade, which appears to be portrayed as stronger.

 

[SamanPatou]

That makes sense, though I'm not entirely convinced about them being really comparable without solid evidences, sorry.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

In-universe perspective isn't given, this thing also comes from a manual, not even a stament from a character.
And I don't see why we should assume the verse takes in so high consideration a realistic rule about dual wielding, just to ignore every other form of realism when it comes to combat.
The line itself is also very vague, you can't take that much out of it.



In-universe perspective isn't always possible, especially when talking about videogames, and game mechanics indeed exist.
Unless we have solid evidences from the game itself, I'm not going to consider Drive Forms and Formchanges to be directly comparable just because the former didn't return in a later game, especially if this isn't mentioned or referred.
The only thing I agree with is that they are unquantifiable power boosts, but it was obvious for everyone.

Considering the problems with dual wielding doubling the attack rate it wouldn't be included in every other form of realism by virtue of going against what would happen in real life. So yeah, why exactly should it be a valid assumption to make without even being hinted at?

I'm not disproving the existence of game mechanics, that's not my point. However, game mechanics do not exist in-universe whereas Drive Forms and Formchanges do and given what we know of Sora's situation in KHIII it doesn't make sense for him to purposefully make himself not as strong as he could be. Are you capable of giving me a single possible reason as to why that might be the case anyways?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Saman.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Since SamanPatou doesn't seem to be in any hurry to give a reply I'll post a summary of the things that need to be settled now. Of the issues discussed there are only two left assuming SamanPatou has no interest in discussing the exact contents of the footnote in regards to Peter Pan and Captain Hook and whether or not we are even going to make a footnote.

The 2x multiplier for Keyblade dual wielding with the associated ability Synch Blade which in the case of Roxas and Sora has been enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart.

Pro:

1. Two statements from outside the game state that the second Keyblade is for double the attack power and abilities though their exact wording is identical.
2. Attack power is generally associated with the power of attacks which would relate to Attack Potency. This would be the most literal and therefore for many people the most intuitive interpretation of the term.
3. Abilities have been mentioned alongside with attack power, so they wouldn't be included in the term attack power.
4. Contrary to what some people would think dual wielding doesn't double the rate at which you can attack and the standard assumption for fiction is that it is the same as real life unless otherwise noted or shown which would apply here if there is no evidence for double the attack rate other than a popular misconception.
5. Dual wielding is generally treated as a boost for Roxas and Sora which should be made evident through the associated cutscenes and statements. This would make the two statements in line with what the games show us.
6. Dual wielding comes with the Synch Blade ability and was enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart which makes this separate from putting a multiplier on the number of Keyblades one wields like Xehanort creating a storm with Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.
7. Drive Forms which feature dual wielding do not really focus around making additional strikes with the extra weapon as some of the available moves showcase.

Contra:

1. The statement could be going off the fairly popular logic of two weapons being better than one.
2. The franchise might be ignoring the real life implications of dual wielding and the statement might have been made in the vein of two Keyblades doubling the attack rate.
3. The franchise already takes plenty of liberties in regards to realism and there being some with dual wielding wouldn't be the strangest thing.
4. They aren't really required to be that exact in regards to the intricacies of dual wielding.
5. The statements come from a secondary source and aren't from the game itself which begs the question of how reliable we can truly consider them to be.

The comparability of Drive Forms and Formchanges.

Pro:

1. Formchanges functionally replaced Drive Forms with SamanPatou admitting that they can be compared on the basis of being standard power ups.
2. Sora lost most of his power at the end of KH3D and opted to gain Formchanges instead of regaining his Drive Forms which he gained with relatively little complications in The Mysterious Tower at the beginning of his journey in KHII.
3. With the threat of the real Organization XIII and Master Xehanort Sora wouldn't want to make himself weaker than he could be.
4. Sora has been stated to be at his strongest in KHIII and having transformations that are inferior to what he had prior would contradict that.
5. The Lingering Will wielding the Keyblade with more ease than Sora and Keyblade transformations being something that Sora attains after the Mark of Mastery point towards Formchanges being more advanced than anything Sora was previously able to do with the Keyblade which should include dual wielding while in a Drive Form. Whether or not that makes Formchanges superior to Drive Forms can be considered up to debate due to the extraordinary circumstances behind the Synch Blade ability.
6. Double Form features dual wielding like half of the Drive Forms. If the 2x multiplier for dual wielding gets accepted, then that would logically extend to Double Form and we will have to pose the question if the other Formchanges can be considered comparable.

Contra:

1. Replacements do not necessarily indicate superiority or even comparability. The developers may not necessarily have considered the in-universe implications here and simply wanted a new game feature.
2. Solid evidence from the games themselves is needed to get a clear picture of the in-universe perspective on this.
3. The purpose and point of Formchanges is to display mastery of the Keyblade which doesn't inherently relate them to Drive Forms which are tied to KHII Sora's clothes.

I've went through the thread again to gather the relevant arguments. If I forgot or overlooked anything, please tell me.

 

[Antvasima]

Since SamanPatou doesn't seem to be in any hurry to give a reply I'll post a summary of the things that need to be settled now. Of the issues discussed there are only two left assuming SamanPatou has no interest in discussing the exact contents of the footnote in regards to Peter Pan and Captain Hook and whether or not we are even going to make a footnote.

The 2x multiplier for Keyblade dual wielding with the associated ability Synch Blade which in the case of Roxas and Sora has been enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart.

Pro:

1. Two statements from outside the game state that the second Keyblade is for double the attack power and abilities though their exact wording is identical.
2. Attack power is generally associated with the power of attacks which would relate to Attack Potency. This would be the most literal and therefore for many people the most intuitive interpretation of the term.
3. Abilities have been mentioned alongside with attack power, so they wouldn't be included in the term attack power.
4. Contrary to what some people would think dual wielding doesn't double the rate at which you can attack and the standard assumption for fiction is that it is the same as real life unless otherwise noted or shown which would apply here if there is no evidence for double the attack rate other than a popular misconception.
5. Dual wielding is generally treated as a boost for Roxas and Sora which should be made evident through the associated cutscenes and statements. This would make the two statements in line with what the games show us.
6. Dual wielding comes with the Synch Blade ability and was enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart which makes this separate from putting a multiplier on the number of Keyblades one wields like Xehanort creating a storm with Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.
7. Drive Forms which feature dual wielding do not really focus around making additional strikes with the extra weapon as some of the available moves showcase.

Contra:

1. The statement could be going off the fairly popular logic of two weapons being better than one.
2. The franchise might be ignoring the real life implications of dual wielding and the statement might have been made in the vein of two Keyblades doubling the attack rate.
3. The franchise already takes plenty of liberties in regards to realism and there being some with dual wielding wouldn't be the strangest thing.
4. They aren't really required to be that exact in regards to the intricacies of dual wielding.
5. The statements come from a secondary source and aren't from the game itself which begs the question of how reliable we can truly consider them to be.

The comparability of Drive Forms and Formchanges.

Pro:

1. Formchanges functionally replaced Drive Forms with SamanPatou admitting that they can be compared on the basis of being standard power ups.
2. Sora lost most of his power at the end of KH3D and opted to gain Formchanges instead of regaining his Drive Forms which he gained with relatively little complications in The Mysterious Tower at the beginning of his journey in KHII.
3. With the threat of the real Organization XIII and Master Xehanort Sora wouldn't want to make himself weaker than he could be.
4. Sora has been stated to be at his strongest in KHIII and having transformations that are inferior to what he had prior would contradict that.
5. The Lingering Will wielding the Keyblade with more ease than Sora and Keyblade transformations being something that Sora attains after the Mark of Mastery point towards Formchanges being more advanced than anything Sora was previously able to do with the Keyblade which should include dual wielding while in a Drive Form. Whether or not that makes Formchanges superior to Drive Forms can be considered up to debate due to the extraordinary circumstances behind the Synch Blade ability.
6. Double Form features dual wielding like half of the Drive Forms. If the 2x multiplier for dual wielding gets accepted, then that would logically extend to Double Form and we will have to pose the question if the other Formchanges can be considered comparable.

Contra:

1. Replacements do not necessarily indicate superiority or even comparability. The developers may not necessarily have considered the in-universe implications here and simply wanted a new game feature.
2. Solid evidence from the games themselves is needed to get a clear picture of the in-universe perspective on this.
3. The purpose and point of Formchanges is to display mastery of the Keyblade which doesn't inherently relate them to Drive Forms which are tied KHII Sora's clothes.

I've went through the thread again to gather the relevant arguments. If I forgot or overlooked anything, please tell me.

@SamanPatou @Dragonmasterxyz @Mr._Bambu

What do you think about this?

 

[SamanPatou]

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't have much to say other than what I've already said so far. In-universe there might not be game mechanics, but they do influence how the game is made, how every game is made, and without solid evidences and statements from the game itself, I refuse to make comparisons just because they might make sense or because there isn't a solid evidence disproving them, even though there isn't one that proves it either.

Anyway, Nehz's summary is really well done and couldn't explain the whole thing better, good job.
At this point we only need more people to give their thoughts.

 

[Bobsican]

I suppose more staff should be contacted then, IIRC Mr. Bambu and Dragonmasterxyz aren't particularly into this series these days.
On my part I'm starting to side more with Nehz given that his points seem more reasonable, while there can be room for doubt and all, we don't need all statements to come directly in the games for them to be usable, after all, we all know some verses are reliant on WoG for scaling purposes.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't have much to say other than what I've already said so far. In-universe there might not be game mechanics, but they do influence how the game is made, how every game is made, and without solid evidences and statements from the game itself, I refuse to make comparisons just because they might make sense or because there isn't a solid evidence disproving them, even though there isn't one that proves it either.

Anyway, Nehz's summary is really well done and couldn't explain the whole thing better, good job.
At this point we only need more people to give their thoughts.

I guess comparisons refers to Drive Forms and Formchanges? A good chunk of the arguments for Formchanges scaling to Drive Forms show how Formchanges being inferior to Drive Forms wouldn't make much sense, so unless we have an actual reasonable way for that to be the case in-universe we have quite a number of things which strongly point into that direction which is why it makes sense and can therefore be considered.

The first half of the first contra argument simply points out a general fact about replacements but this hardly matters if there are other things that do indeed indicate what the pro side advocates like the first to fifth argument of the pro side. The second half of the first contra argument takes into consideration a possible amount of casualness of the game developers in regards to the plot. That being said, plenty of things point towards Sora being better than he previously was, so it's unlikely that Sora's level of power was neglected from a plot perspective and we generally shouldn't assume that they were being ignorant of the plot purely because we can assume that due to nothing explicitly excluding that possibility.

While solid evidence from the games itself would help cement what is being proposed that doesn't mean that we should ignore statements and context as featured in the pro arguments. Formchanges being a form of mastery over the Keyblade not being something that relates them to Drive Forms is right but there are things that prompt comparisons like Sora using Second Form in Olympus before he got KHIII outfit meaning he still had his KHII utfit that gave him his Drive Forms in the first place as Bobsican pointed out.

Contra:

1. The statement could be going off the fairly popular logic of two weapons being better than one.
2. The franchise might be ignoring the real life implications of dual wielding and the statement might have been made in the vein of two Keyblades doubling the attack rate.
3. The franchise already takes plenty of liberties in regards to realism and there being some with dual wielding wouldn't be the strangest thing.
4. They aren't really required to be that exact in regards to the intricacies of dual wielding.
5. The statements come from a secondary source and aren't from the game itself which begs the question of how reliable we can truly consider them to be.

From the contra arguments in regards to the 2x multiplier for dual wielding the first four are dependent on the notion of the game developers having been lax with exact details. However, these arguments would need to get past the standard assumption of fiction being the same as reality unless otherwise noted or shown and unless there is evidence of the game developers actually having been that lax with the details I don't see that happening. Pro arguments 2 to 4 and 6 and 7 should make it pretty clear why the explanation of a doubled attack rate wouldn't quite work from a logical perspective.

That leaves only the fifth argument as something that I consider convincing and can't really refute. However, I don't consider it enough to make me just ignore statements that have been released especially if Square Enix clearly has no problems with having that same statement twice out there. The fifth pro argument of the statement fitting to the depictions of the dual wielding instances is enough to put me quite firmly on the pro side with the belief that the two statements combined with the depictions of dual wielding outweigh the fact of the statements coming from a secondary source.

And with this I've presented my thoughts about the arguments presented in my summary of things that need to be settled now.

 

[Antvasima]

Since SamanPatou doesn't seem to be in any hurry to give a reply I'll post a summary of the things that need to be settled now. Of the issues discussed there are only two left assuming SamanPatou has no interest in discussing the exact contents of the footnote in regards to Peter Pan and Captain Hook and whether or not we are even going to make a footnote.

The 2x multiplier for Keyblade dual wielding with the associated ability Synch Blade which in the case of Roxas and Sora has been enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart.

Pro:

1. Two statements from outside the game state that the second Keyblade is for double the attack power and abilities though their exact wording is identical.
2. Attack power is generally associated with the power of attacks which would relate to Attack Potency. This would be the most literal and therefore for many people the most intuitive interpretation of the term.
3. Abilities have been mentioned alongside with attack power, so they wouldn't be included in the term attack power.
4. Contrary to what some people would think dual wielding doesn't double the rate at which you can attack and the standard assumption for fiction is that it is the same as real life unless otherwise noted or shown which would apply here if there is no evidence for double the attack rate other than a popular misconception.
5. Dual wielding is generally treated as a boost for Roxas and Sora which should be made evident through the associated cutscenes and statements. This would make the two statements in line with what the games show us.
6. Dual wielding comes with the Synch Blade ability and was enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart which makes this separate from putting a multiplier on the number of Keyblades one wields like Xehanort creating a storm with Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.
7. Drive Forms which feature dual wielding do not really focus around making additional strikes with the extra weapon as some of the available moves showcase.

Contra:

1. The statement could be going off the fairly popular logic of two weapons being better than one.
2. The franchise might be ignoring the real life implications of dual wielding and the statement might have been made in the vein of two Keyblades doubling the attack rate.
3. The franchise already takes plenty of liberties in regards to realism and there being some with dual wielding wouldn't be the strangest thing.
4. They aren't really required to be that exact in regards to the intricacies of dual wielding.
5. The statements come from a secondary source and aren't from the game itself which begs the question of how reliable we can truly consider them to be.

The comparability of Drive Forms and Formchanges.

Pro:

1. Formchanges functionally replaced Drive Forms with SamanPatou admitting that they can be compared on the basis of being standard power ups.
2. Sora lost most of his power at the end of KH3D and opted to gain Formchanges instead of regaining his Drive Forms which he gained with relatively little complications in The Mysterious Tower at the beginning of his journey in KHII.
3. With the threat of the real Organization XIII and Master Xehanort Sora wouldn't want to make himself weaker than he could be.
4. Sora has been stated to be at his strongest in KHIII and having transformations that are inferior to what he had prior would contradict that.
5. The Lingering Will wielding the Keyblade with more ease than Sora and Keyblade transformations being something that Sora attains after the Mark of Mastery point towards Formchanges being more advanced than anything Sora was previously able to do with the Keyblade which should include dual wielding while in a Drive Form. Whether or not that makes Formchanges superior to Drive Forms can be considered up to debate due to the extraordinary circumstances behind the Synch Blade ability.
6. Double Form features dual wielding like half of the Drive Forms. If the 2x multiplier for dual wielding gets accepted, then that would logically extend to Double Form and we will have to pose the question if the other Formchanges can be considered comparable.

Contra:

1. Replacements do not necessarily indicate superiority or even comparability. The developers may not necessarily have considered the in-universe implications here and simply wanted a new game feature.
2. Solid evidence from the games themselves is needed to get a clear picture of the in-universe perspective on this.
3. The purpose and point of Formchanges is to display mastery of the Keyblade which doesn't inherently relate them to Drive Forms which are tied to KHII Sora's clothes.

I've went through the thread again to gather the relevant arguments. If I forgot or overlooked anything, please tell me.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Since we seem to be voting, my position remains unchanged. I still agree with Saman.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Since SamanPatou doesn't seem to be in any hurry to give a reply I'll post a summary of the things that need to be settled now. Of the issues discussed there are only two left assuming SamanPatou has no interest in discussing the exact contents of the footnote in regards to Peter Pan and Captain Hook and whether or not we are even going to make a footnote.

The 2x multiplier for Keyblade dual wielding with the associated ability Synch Blade which in the case of Roxas and Sora has been enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart.

Pro:

1. Two statements from outside the game state that the second Keyblade is for double the attack power and abilities though their exact wording is identical.
2. Attack power is generally associated with the power of attacks which would relate to Attack Potency. This would be the most literal and therefore for many people the most intuitive interpretation of the term.
3. Abilities have been mentioned alongside with attack power, so they wouldn't be included in the term attack power.
4. Contrary to what some people would think dual wielding doesn't double the rate at which you can attack and the standard assumption for fiction is that it is the same as real life unless otherwise noted or shown which would apply here if there is no evidence for double the attack rate other than a popular misconception.
5. Dual wielding is generally treated as a boost for Roxas and Sora which should be made evident through the associated cutscenes and statements. This would make the two statements in line with what the games show us.
6. Dual wielding comes with the Synch Blade ability and was enabled through the presence of Ventus' heart which makes this separate from putting a multiplier on the number of Keyblades one wields like Xehanort creating a storm with Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.
7. Drive Forms which feature dual wielding do not really focus around making additional strikes with the extra weapon as some of the available moves showcase.

Contra:

1. The statement could be going off the fairly popular logic of two weapons being better than one.
2. The franchise might be ignoring the real life implications of dual wielding and the statement might have been made in the vein of two Keyblades doubling the attack rate.
3. The franchise already takes plenty of liberties in regards to realism and there being some with dual wielding wouldn't be the strangest thing.
4. They aren't really required to be that exact in regards to the intricacies of dual wielding.
5. The statements come from a secondary source and aren't from the game itself which begs the question of how reliable we can truly consider them to be.

I'd rather not compare fiction to real life regarding the mechanics of duel weilding. The question is, are the characters physical stats/damage buffed by 2x in game?

 

[Antvasima]

Since we seem to be voting, my position remains unchanged. I still agree with Saman.

It seems like this thread is leaning towards being rejected then.

 

[SamanPatou]

Regardless of the outcome, only a part of it would be rejected, we've reached an agreement on some proposals.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Understood.

 

[Bobsican]

I'd rather not compare fiction to real life regarding the mechanics of duel weilding. The question is, are the characters physical stats/damage buffed by 2x in game?

It's clear that the damage output/physical stats are indeed raised, and in-game it is increased, yes.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It's clear that the damage output/physical stats are indeed raised, and in-game it is increased, yes.

Is the damage output/physical stats actually doubled though?

 

[Bobsican]

Is the damage output/physical stats actually doubled though?

It may get into game mechanics territory, but it appears to vary, KH damage calculation isn't as straightforward as one would think, but that being said, there's a basic damage multiplier per attack that's used as its characteristic factor to determine its damage, with the strongest base form moves that don't use magic capping at "x2", but then we have Limit Form having a "x6" damage measure with Zantetsuken, for example.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It may get into game mechanics territory, but it appears to vary, KH damage calculation isn't as straightforward as one would think, but that being said, there's a basic damage multiplier per attack that's used as its characteristic factor to determine its damage, with the strongest base form moves that don't use magic capping at "x2", but then we have Limit Form having a "x6" damage measure with Zantetsuken, for example.

It looks like as if there is quite a lot of information in regards to the damage calculation of the game though I doubt that in-universe multipliers or boosts should in any way be related to the damage increase from the gameplay.

 

[Bobsican]

It looks like as if there is quite a lot of information in regards to the damage calculation of the game though I doubt that in-universe multipliers or boosts should in any way be related to the damage increase from the gameplay.

Indeed, hence why I think we should give more priority to the lore than how the game may portray it, but the implication of such Drive Forms increasing power is still there.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Indeed, hence why I think we should give more priority to the lore than how the game may portray it, but the implication of such Drive Forms increasing power is still there.

Yeah, it indeed is there though it's not like as if there aren't any statements about that. I don't think anyone contested Drive Forms being a power boost.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regardless of the outcome, only a part of it would be rejected, we've reached an agreement on some proposals.

Aye, some multipliers are accepted in this thread- just not all of those detailed in the initial proposal.