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King vs Sanji Rematch 2

Kachon123 said:
I don't think it is, but if you're right, then none of King's attacks can burn Sanji.
Click to expand...
Why would they be any different?

IMO King's normal/magma fire < Omori Karyudon.

And no they can't burn Sanji, but their raw AP can probably still hurt him, and he still can use it to amp his sword's power like he did against Zoro.
 
XDragnoir said:
Concession accepted, later i will take about the speed scale.
Click to expand...
Someone doesn't disagree with you?
Tell them they conceded because they don't feel like negating your blatantly false points!
Eseseso said:
Why would they be any different?

IMO King's normal/magma fire < Omori Karyudon.

And no they can't burn Sanji, but their raw AP can probably still hurt him, and he still can use it to amp his sword's power like he did against Zoro.
Click to expand...
No they're definitely different.
 
Kachon123 said:
In heat? Why?
Click to expand...
That's just my guess since King thought Omori Karyudon would kill Zoro when his previous Imperial Flames couldn't.

Either way it won't burn Sanji that much, if at all, but it'll definitely still hurt him.

If only Sanji could firebend like Zuko, I'd pay money to see him firebend with his legs and feet
 
I really think determining whether Flame-Off King can blitz/outpace Sanji is of utmost importance here.
Because Sanji uses Armament for DJ, and then the Exoskeleton on top of that for IJ, meaning his base self can't really withstand those flames.
If King blitzes him and uses a flame attack as well, then Sanij can't react in time to activate Armament+Exoskeleton to heighten his resistance, which will spell trouble for him.
Kachon123 said:
When the person who originally disagrees now agrees, would that not be a concession?
Click to expand...
I do not agree with him.
Eseseso said:
Calm down, dude. He was just joking.
Click to expand...
I'm not mad btw. He was just lying about me conceding is all.
Eseseso said:
How?
Click to expand...
Zoro opted to outright dodge it and compared it to magma.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Someone doesn't disagree with you?
Tell them they conceded because they don't feel like negating your blatantly false points!
Click to expand...
My points aren't false? I just literally went through the accepted heat scaling found in this thread and added points that weren't addressed in the thread like Exo Sanji having higher heat resistance than his base (confirmed in the newest SBS) as well as King's Magma Fire which in my opinion is not only clearly different from his normal fire but should also be hotter.


TheMonkeMan said:
I'm not mad btw. He was just lying about me conceding is all.
Click to expand...
You literally said "sure they do", how exactly am i lying? You literally conceded.
 
Kachon123 said:
Wouldn't that just be AP?
Click to expand...
I mean maybe, but his previous flames burned Zoro though he survived them, so it's a possibly.

Either way, if it hits Sanji, it's gonna hurt.

TheMonkeMan said:
I really think determining whether Flame-Off King can blitz/outpace Sanji is of utmost importance here.
Because Sanji uses Armament for DJ, and then the Exoskeleton on top of that for IJ, meaning his base self can't really withstand those flames.
If King blitzes him and uses a flame attack as well, then Sanij can't react in time to activate Armament+Exoskeleton to heighten his resistance, which will spell trouble for him.
Click to expand...
I don't think King blitzes.

Flame-Off Base King = Enhanced Speed Sanji

Flame-Off Zoan King = IJ Sanji (Which is Enhanced speed + DJ, since the first time Sanji used enhanced speed against Queen and then used Hell Memories, he used DJ so Queen lost sight of him, then used DJ while seemingly not using enhanced speed)

So Sanji has one advantage that Zoro didn't have (besides better heat resistance) against King: Combat speed parity (at minimum).
TheMonkeMan said:
Zoro opted to outright dodge it and compared it to magma.
Click to expand...
That doesn't explain why it's any different from his normal flames.
 
Kachon123 said:
I mean, okay.
Click to expand...
XDragnoir said:
My points aren't false? I just literally went through the accepted heat scaling found in this thread and added points that weren't addressed in the thread like Exo Sanji having higher heat resistance than his base (confirmed in the newest SBS) as well as King's Magma Fire which in my opinion is not only clearly different from his normal fire but should also be hotter.



You literally said "sure they do", how exactly am i lying? You literally conceded.
Click to expand...

en.wikipedia.org

Sarcasm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Because Sanji uses Armament for DJ, and then the Exoskeleton on top of that for IJ, meaning his base self can't really withstand those flames.
If King blitzes him and uses a flame attack as well, then Sanij can't react in time to activate Armament+Exoskeleton to heighten his resistance, which will spell trouble for him.
Click to expand...
Not true at all, we see Luffy's face acting like rubber when Sanji kicked him with DJ during WCI.

If you had actually paid attention to the heat scaling, you'd see that most of Kings heat based attacks scale below Sanji's normal heat resistance.
TheMonkeMan said:
en.wikipedia.org

Sarcasm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
So your rebuttal to my argument (which isn't even an argument, i literally just used the accepted heat scaling) is sarcasm and accusations?
 
Kachon123 said:
It's not a possibly. Thats not how heat scaling works at all.
Click to expand...
Ok, then it's AP.

Which means if Sanji gets hit by it, it's gonna hurt. A LOT.

As in badly injure him.
Kachon123 said:
Proof?
Click to expand...
Both were FTE to people with comparable speeds.
Kachon123 said:
Proof?
Click to expand...
Going by scaling chains, they should be equal levels of speed amp.

And I just realized that Base King managed to grab Raid Suit Sanji before he could react, and Raid Suit Sanji is faster than DJ Sanji (or is that only with his boosters?).
 
Eseseso said:
Which means if Sanji gets hit by it, it's gonna hurt. A LOT.

As in badly injure him.
Click to expand...
And then he'd regen.

And that's still a big if, as Sanji could just easily blitz the attack.
Eseseso said:
Both were FTE to people with comparable speeds.
Click to expand...
Send a scaling chain.
Eseseso said:
And I just realized that Base King managed to grab Raid Suit Sanji before he could react, and Raid Suit Sanji is faster than DJ Sanji (or is that only with his boosters?).
Click to expand...
1. Sanji was distracted like Marco was against BigMom, as he looked over to Momo to talk to him
2. We see right before that Sanji was able to react to and block hits from both Flame off and Flame on Base King, so that'd be an outlier
3. Raid Suit Sanji is just as fast as base Sanji and is only faster and stronger when using his boosters, meaning that that scaling does not work.
Eseseso said:
Going by scaling chains, they should be equal levels of speed amp.
Click to expand...
Send it.
 
Eseseso said:
Ok, then it's AP.

Which means if Sanji gets hit by it, it's gonna hurt. A LOT.

As in badly injure him.
Click to expand...
What attack are you referring to here? If you have the scan with it I'd be grateful.
Eseseso said:
And I just realized that Base King managed to grab Raid Suit Sanji before he could react, and Raid Suit Sanji is faster than DJ Sanji (or is that only with his boosters?).
Click to expand...
Only with boosters, and Sanji was protecting Momo when King grabbed him, so that definitely doesn't give King the edge in speed.
 
Kachon123 said:
And then he'd regen.
Click to expand...
He'd still be out for a good bit, allowing King to hit him before he could regen since he'd have taken a lot of damage.
Kachon123 said:
And that's still a big if, as Sanji could just easily blitz the attack.
Click to expand...
No he couldn't
Kachon123 said:
Send a scaling chain.

1. Sanji was distracted like Marco was against BigMom, as he looked over to Momo to talk to him
3. Raid Suit Sanji is just as fast as base Sanji and is only faster and stronger when using his boosters, meaning that that scaling does not work.
Click to expand...
K
Kachon123 said:
Send it.
Click to expand...
Zoan Queen reacted to Base Zoro and grabbed him, so they're comparable.

Zoan Queen << Enhanced speed Sanji (FTE/blitz) < Ifrit Jambe (as it is Enhanced speed + DJ)

Zoro << Flame Off Base King (FTE) < Flame-Off Zoan King
 
XDragnoir said:
Not true at all, we see Luffy's face acting like rubber when Sanji kicked him with DJ during WCI.

If you had actually paid attention to the heat scaling, you'd see that most of Kings heat based attacks scale below Sanji's normal heat resistance.
Click to expand...
Oh my god. No way you said this.
This is the same as Cracker stabbing Luffy and Luffy not even getting penetrated.
Or Doflamingo kicking him and Luffy not getting penetrated or hurt at all.
 
Eseseso said:
Sanji's gonna be in for a world of pain
Click to expand...
Look at Sanji's stamina. He's endured attacks that should have killed him several times over. He's not going to be out after taking it.
Eseseso said:
Because he can't blitz him.
Click to expand...
Yes he can.
Eseseso said:
Yes it is, Sanji says so himself.
Click to expand...
He never said that.

Sanji used his enhanced speed when he used Ifrit against Queen, but in the text on the left side of the panel, he stated what Ifrit actually was.

Ifrit = Hotter flames that Sanji can conjure that are so hot that he needs Armament added with his Exoskeleton so he won't get burned.

Sanji used his Super Speed and his Exoskeleton Muscle to make his kicks stronger, but Ifrit itself does not need the either of them.

Ifrit > DJ >(FTE) Zoan Queen > Base Zoro (FTE)< Flame Off Base King < Flame-Off Zoan King

Sanji can stack his Enhanced Speed with either of these, he just doesn't need to.


Saying that Ifrit Jambe needs his Enhanced Speed in order to be used is like saying Diable Jambe needs his Enhanced Speed just because he used it when he did Hell's Memories at the end of Chapter 1031.
 
Kachon ain't reading it right lol.
Anyway I think AP might go to King somewhat.
Durability too ( Duh )
Speed is debatable, if Sanji doesn't use speed amps when King has his flame off in time then he gets blitzed and consequently burnt if he doesn't have Armament/Exoskeleton active to heighten his resistance, however as shown during his fight against Marco and some of his fight against Zoro he hardly turns the flame off so this wouldn't is very unlikely anyway.
Stamina/Endurance is probably Sanji's forte here, while he did pass out after his fight with Queen that was due to several things like being tied up and tortured, having to fly around with the Raid Suit on while holding Momo, etc. on top of that fight.
So he should be able to last long enough until the outcome of this fight.
Honestly, Sanji's best bets are having speed on par with King's, and hot enough flames to at least somewhat burn King with IJ.
King has superior Durability and AP ( iirc ), plus better flight and possibly superior Armament.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
when King has his flame off in time then he gets blitzed
Click to expand...
While Sanji with no amps is slowey than Flame Off King, his reactions still scale to himself at his fastest, so he'd still be able to react, just not keep up in long-term, though it that's not a concern given how Sanji can just use his amps.
TheMonkeMan said:
Armament/Exoskeleton active to heighten his resistance
Click to expand...
He uses his amps far more likely than King does, so the entire speed portion of your argument is actually in Sanji's favor here but to even an even greater extent than what you wrote.

Everything else, I pretty much agree with you, although I feel as though you're downplaying how much of an advantage Sanji has in heat and how that counters King's durability to the point where its not really a wincon for King.
 
Kachon123 said:
While Sanji with no amps is slowey than Flame Off King, his reactions still scale to himself at his fastest, so he'd still be able to react, just not keep up in long-term, though it that's not a concern given how Sanji can just use his amps.

He uses his amps far more likely than King does, so the entire speed portion of your argument is actually in Sanji's favor here but to even an even greater extent than what you wrote.

Everything else, I pretty much agree with you, although I feel as though you're downplaying how much of an advantage Sanji has in heat and how that counters King's durability to the point where its not really a wincon for King.
Click to expand...
I don't know how good their heat is but I do know King's explosion nearly killed a relatively healthy Zoro on the spot.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I don't know how good their heat is but I do know King's explosion nearly a relatively healthy Zoro on the spot.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's because the effect of the heat and the shockwave.

The heat wouldn't effect him and I addressed the shockwave here

Kachon123 said:
The way explosive shockwaves injure is by destroying and heavily injuring the brain, the spine, and hollow organs such as the lungs, stomach, and intestines.

And although it scales above Sanji's AP value, because of his endurance, he should be able to survive this in time for his body to regenerate. We've seen Sanji take attacks to the brain, spine, and torso several times before that would have completely destroyed them, but he kept on going and fighting without issue, so I don't see why this would kill Sanji at all.
Click to expand...
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I don't know how good their heat is but I do know King's explosion nearly killed a relatively healthy Zoro on the spot.
Click to expand...
Just realized I didn't include the word killed at first
Kachon123 said:
Yeah, that's because the effect of the heat and the shockwave.

The heat wouldn't effect him and I addressed the shockwave here
Click to expand...
It's the fact that it's a very sudden explosion and as I said before, if Sanji doesn't defend in time he'll still get burnt to some degree.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
The heat scaling that he has via being able to activate his Haki/Exoskeleton in time?
Which he possibly can't do here if he can't react in time?
Click to expand...
1. Sanji has heat resistance outside of his Exoskeleton
2. Sanji would have his Exoskeleton activated before King even uses it
3. King has never used his explosion outside of his Flame On mode, and only used it once out of his entire fight with Zoro, meaning that he's not likely to use it here
4. Sanji has kenbun, so he'd be able to read King's intention and hewouldn't get baited
5. Sanji's reaction speed scales to himself at his fastest, so he'd definitely be able to react
 
XDragnoir said:
Okay then, what proof do you have that DJ uses his Buso? Nothing like that was ever stated afaik.
Click to expand...
"Add the color of Armament Haki I've developed to my Exoskeleton"
Sanji more often than not uses Haki to heighten his flame resistance and AP.
Like where do you think most of his Haki feats come from?
Kachon123 said:
3. King has never used his explosion outside of his Flame On mode, and only used it once out of his entire fight with Zoro, meaning that he's not likely to use it here
Click to expand...
Because he knows Zoro isn't stupid.
Once Zoro stopped the force of it (somewhat) King knew not to bother trying it again because Zoro isn't the type of person to do the same thing twice knowing it could kill him.
Kachon123 said:
4. Sanji has kenbun, so he'd be able to read King's intention and hewouldn't get baited
Click to expand...
Except Zoro's Kenbun didn't help him and he still got baited into it.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Because he knows Zoro isn't stupid.
Once Zoro stopped the force of it (somewhat) King knew not to bother trying it again because Zoro isn't the type of person to do the same thing twice knowing it could kill him.
Click to expand...
Sanji is smarter than Zoro.

Also, the OP says that they are both in character, meaning that King would likely not use it.
TheMonkeMan said:
Except Zoro's Kenbun didn't help him and he still got baited into it.
Click to expand...
Sanji uses Kenbun in fights much more than Zoro does.
 
This is kind of painful.
I'm gonna leave the thread for a little bit to not overload my brain.
 
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