KH: The "Heart" is Abstract, Part 2

[Bobsican]

Basically, this is what was left to discuss from the previous thread (please check it first if you want to still debate the Abstract Existence stuff that already got accepted), in very simple terms:

- Sora, Donald, Goofy, Sora´s summons (So far, the only ones with profiles right now are Meow Wow, Stitch, Simba and Ariel), Aqua, Terra, Ventus and Master Eraqus get resistance to Concept Manip, as they all are able to take hits from Xehanort without having their concept destroyed like Kairi.

- Abstract Existence (Type 2, already agreed on for the whole verse´s cast), Immortality (Types 3 and 8, can regenerate quickly, and will come back to a whole so long the heart is still not interfered with), Mid Godly Rege (reliant on the "heart"), and immunity to Soul Manipulation (lack a soul to begin with) should be added to all current Heartless profiles (Demon Tide, Lich (Kingdom Hearts) and Ansem)

- All Heartless get Existence Erasure and anyone that can take hits from them gets resistance to it (As the body and soul doesn´t just perish while the heart turns into a Heartless, but they are in fact, deleted from existence, as we all know that Nobodies (the remaining Body and Soul) don´t conventionally exist at all (which is already accepted), and they only happen when the individual itself has an strong will, as we can see in KHI that otherwise they just vanish from existence)

It´s to be noted that some "chunks" of this was already accepted in the past thread, but because they are still strong changes, staff input is still required for its total approval.

Note: Another KH CRT completely separated from this one´s topics that also needs input

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Bump

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Also, shouldn't anyone who resists the effects of darkness have resistance to Soul Manipulation as the soul and mind are the same in verse?

 

[Bobsican]

They aren´t the same, they are just related.

Unless you mean of the potential of becoming Heartless, in which case, yeah, soul is included too as Heartless lack one to begin with.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

They aren't related, they're the exact same. The soul and mind are used interchangeably in verse, and Nomura himself regarded that as so.

 

[Bobsican]

They are stated to not be the same thing (even if used like that), then again, but yeah, if you can take hits from Heartless, Soul manip resistance likely is on the way.

I´ll add that to the OP

 

[TheSpeedster96]

What statement are you referring to? Because I haven't seen a single statement where they're stated to be different, and they wouldn't get resistance to Soul Manip via taking hits from Heartless. They would get it from resisting the corruption of darkness on the mind/soul.

 

[Bobsican]

The very start of the OP of the previous thread explains it

Aka, "In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).

Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will)."

The heart doesn´t have to be explained further here as that´s something the previous thread took care of.

Now that I think about it, Heartless should get Existence Erasure as once they free the "heart" of the opponent, the body and soul vanishes from existence.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

That at all isn't evidence to differentiate them. Roxas, a nobody (being that gets the body and soul), didn't even get Sora's soul. He didn't have the memories of Sora, acted like a zombie, and couldn't even form a sentence all because he didn't receive Sora's mind. This literally proves the mind is the soul, and there's other examples such as the Lingering Will. https://youtu.be/2KyJVqv_Ijw?t=94

 

[Bobsican]

Roxas is special, and actually, later on 358/2 Days, his memories start getting conflict with Sora´s.

The wiki explains the thing far better than what I could (link above)

 

[TheSpeedster96]

He's special because him and Sora can exist at the same time, that doesn't debunk Sora's soul hardly going to him. Roxas only started receiving Sora's memories after he became stationary in a pod with Namine fixing his memories. He falls alseep on day 27 (around the same day Sora enters Castle Oblivion),receives the memory of Sora entering pod to have his memories fixed on day 49, the official timeline confirms both the days happening the same time as Roxas goes into a coma, and the day he receives the memories . Roxas literally only got Sora's memories because Namine fixing them started going into Roxas because of their connection. He hardly gets the soul unlike all Nobodies upon being born.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, a soul is needed or otherwise he would just be a vessel with no "life" whatsoever.

And it´s also stated the reason he didn´t have Sora´s memories at day 1 was because Sora was the one that originally kept them, until the Namine stuff happened.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

That's why I said "hardly" since Sora was a Heartless for a very minimal time, he got a fraction of Sora's soul, and we already know a soul can be fragmented off since theLinger Will exists.

I never denied that, my entire point with Roxas was using him as an example of the soul=mind.

 

[Bobsican]

Fragmented? Lingering Will is literally just Terra´s armor possessed by his soul, the heart and body are taken by Terranort, IIRC.

And it being minimal time makes it still a point, as far I know, there´s a chance that Kairi made a new soul for Sora, just like the body.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Nomura himself states that the Lingering Will is made from his hatred thoughts of Xehanort, part of his soul. Can you substantiate that Kairi is capable of making a soul? Because Ansem states in the secret reports that Namine was made from Sora's body and soul. It would literally be nonsensical to say a duplicate soul was created for Namine. If parts of Sora's soul can be shared for Roxas and Namine, then Sora still retained his.

 

[Bobsican]

You see, the "mind" and the "soul" are very closely related to each other in verse.

Kairi making a soul is extremely dubious, as not even the wiki knows how exactly she returned Sora from a Heartless to a whole beyond using her light.

There´s also the possibility that the soul was just splitted, after which it eventually growed as a whole by itself, but it´s also very dubious for the reasons above.

But overall, the "Soul"/"Mind" and the "body" are definitely not the exact same thing.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

I didn't claim Kairi made it, you did as said in your previous comment "there's a chance Kairi made a new soul for Sora". Why are you using a wiki as further explanation? Ansem states Sora used Kairi's heart to purify his Heartless form, that's a good enough explanation.

How is it dubious? The heart can already repair itself as seen with Ven and Vanitas. Regardless, this is becoming a huge derail, so we should wait for input.

 

[Bobsican]

The problem is that, as far we know, a Heartless is only made from a "heart" and some darkness, and it´s stated that the body and the soul vanish from existence from the individual when it becomes a Heartless, so it isn´t too crazy to consider that Roxas has Sora´s body and soul, even if a bit altered because Ventus was within him too.

And yes while the "heart" can repair itself, I don´t recall statements like that for the body or soul too.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Okay, this isn't getting anywhere. We should just drop this and return to it later because this thread was suppose to be resolving the conceptual additions.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I agree

The thing was already added to the OP anyways so you can continue later if you wish.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with OP.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So i know it has been decided that we should discuss lter but i think soul and mind are more or less the same thing in the KH series.

A complete being is made of three parts : body, heart and soul. As said in Ansem's Report 13, when someone becomes a Heartless, their heart, which controls the body, is released, leaving behind the body and soul, wich can create a Nobody (a mix between the soul and the body). Now, we remember that the Nobodies with human form retain their mind because of the power of their will, wich means will is a major part of the soul itself.

Also, the Lingering Will is interesting. At the end of Terra's story, Xehanort takes possession of Terra's body while his heart succombs to the Darkness. But his soul is strong enough to continue to exist and manifests itself as the Lingering Will. That is because Terra's will is exceptionnally strong so even without his heart and his body, he is able to create some kind of physical form. The mind and the soul being the same is also lampshaded by Terra-Xehanort when he says "Your body submits, your heart succombs so why do your mind resist ?".

 

[Bobsican]

He didn´t create a physical form, Terra simply possessed his Keyblade Armor Terranort just dropped as he deemed it as a waste, which was made as Terra tried to summon it at last second to avoid falling to darkness, which was when it was just too late.

And yeah, the verse basically takes the "Mind" as the same thing (or at the very least very related) to the "Soul", which is also related to the "heart" as some parts of the Mind seem to relate to it, while the body is basically what later games call the "vessel" (Aka, the physical thing).

And then there´s also how in KHIII, when Sora, Aqua and Ventus manage to get Terra back, Lingering Will disappears, seemingly because as it finally was able to go back to a whole.

As for the Nobody part, well, once again, as the body is needed so the soul can "do" anything useful, they can´t really be taken as the same thing (even if the mechanics of the verse mixes both up in nearly everything that may happen to any of the two, as in if one is affected, chances are the other will too in some way).

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not sure when the LW actually disappears. It could have disappeared before Terra-Xehanort got defeated. We'll have to wait for the upcoming DLC although that corresponds to what we see for TX.

Since the Nobodies are made of the body and the soul, they need these two components to exist anyway. If one disppear, they will.

Something i noticed about X is Maleficent's return to life in II. When Ansem/Riku stabbed her with his Keyblade, he opened his heart to Darkness and she unlocked the ability to travel through time. From what we understand, it's apparently very different from regular time travel in the series because, unlike regular time travel, she could have changed her past. In the end, the dark figure (wich i suppose is the MoM) sent her "back" in time and thus, she was resurrected in II. But it's also stated (in the series) that Maleficent can regenerate herself as long as someone remembers her wich is canon not only in KH but also in Disney in general.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, it´s not shown on screen IIRC, but the KH wiki says so in Lingering Will´s page.

Also, a body with no soul is basically a vessel (Aka, the things that everyone talked about at about the end of KHIII), just... well, the body, with no life, waiting for someone to take control of it.

And a soul with no body... well, it seems that if the soul is totally alone without even its own heart to remain within it´ll just vanish until then like when someone with a weak will is turned into a heartless, no Nobody is dropped as it just vanishes until the heart is free once more to go back to a whole.

And yeah, Maleficent getting Type 8 Immortality via that is totally fine, I suspected that a bit, but for the time travel stuff, yeah, she isn´t getting time paradox immunity, as she nor Pete didn´t do anything that would have made any paradoxes becuase the MoM set it so that those that travel in time can´t interfere.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Apparently the soul only...wonders. Not even sure if it can be corrupted by the Darkness. It seems it will effectively either simply vanish unless its original body exists or is recreated (or if a new vessel if created and it can attach to it...i suppose).

For the time travel thing, apparently Maleficent could interfere with time. That's the reason why the digital version of Enchanted Dominion was created, because the MoM saw her coming and he didn't want her to interfere with time. Plus, in KH III, it's hinted she actually remembers travelling through time (the moment when she and Pete meet Dark Riku in San Franskoyo and she says she met this Riku but cannot confirm from what period of time he was from. Wich would actually mean she has discovered a new way to travel through time that partially defy (at least) regular time travel.

Btw, can we finally agree that she is far more villainous than Xehanort ? I mean, Xehanort thinks he does something good and genuienly wants to change the Universe to purge the world from Darkness while she openely and proudly states she is evil. And i just loves her. So i admit i'm disappointed she became so secondary in the series and i really hope she will have a greater role.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, are we going to forget the time Maleficent sent Pete to destroy the Cornerstone of Light in KHII?

Also, it seems Maleficent will do something bigger after KHIII, but for now... yeah.

Anyways, yeah, it seems the soul in KH works like that.

Anything else?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Nope, nothing else.

 

[Bobsican]

Just to be sure, everything in the OP is fine as it is then?

If so, this thread can be closed.

 

[Bobsican]

Just to be sure, everything in the OP is fine as it is then?
If so, this thread can be closed.

 

[Bobsican]

Just to be sure, everything in the OP is fine as it is then?
If so, this thread can be closed.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

The above still needs a reply or something.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't know for everybody but looks fine for me.

 

[Bobsican]

There´s probably more if we take into account the Reality Shifts Sora and Riku can do in Dream Drop Distance, BTW.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I'm not sure it is considered as some kind of power, more like a very gameplay thing and even if it is, wasn't it a thing they could do precisely because they were into the Sleeping Worlds and thanks to the Dream Eaters ?

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, I can see that.

BTW, you are forced to use them in The Grid to defeat the bosses, so they are easily canon.

Let alone that cutscene where Riku uses one with help of his Komory Bat to get to Sora.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The cutscene thing was more a way to illustrate the fact that Sora's heart was asleep so Riku needed to go in his dreams to save him. But i can see the point for the boss thing.

 

[Bobsican]

No, it was the part where Riku uses Dreamline to cross the Brink of Despair with Komory Bat´s help to enter the Castle that Never Was

Outside of this, everything else at the OP is totally fine? If so, I can start adding the stuff to the profiles.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Sounds ok to me but you should ask the others if they're ok with this to. BTW, i saw many new profiles for Disney characters, do you think a profile for Ursula would be good or it cannot work for her ?