Bobsican
He/Him- 21,648
- 6,290
(Next thread)
Okay, so I´ve noticed there´s a common misconception of KH´s "hearts" being taken as just a fancy name for a "soul", which are actually separate, all thanks to the inaccurate description the verse page gives.
Okay, so, before you ask "Where is that supported?", I´ll go ahead and say it:
In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).
Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
What could the heart be?
The answer may surprise you, it´s actually the conceptual aspect of a being.
What supports this?
Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology.
There´s also what TheSpeedster98 pointed out, aka, the following:
Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs
Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45
The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s
Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
What this leads to?
This leads into the "heart" being actually a type 3 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence
"3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. (...)
This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify."
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable)
Which also leads into that:
Anyone that can use a Keyblade, manipulate Kingdom Hearts or just the "heart" itself (Aka, any Heartless and Nobody too, plus Donald, Goofy and some others that have feats supporting it) have conceptual attacks, resistance to them and conceptual Sealing and Regenerationn negation for Keyblade users (Mid-Godly, as those with a Keyblade can seal hearts in Kingdom Hearts itself, and prevent Heartless/Nobodies they slay from coming back), as they can per definition manipulate "hearts", and pretty much everyone in the verse that can come back from the "heart" to a whole gets Mid-Godly Regenerationn as they can come back from a concept, which is above Low-Godly.
This also scales to Sora´s summons as they can also destroy Heartless and Nobodies thanks to Sora making a bond with his own heart to them, which would also affect side characters that support anyone with a keyblade, like Beast and Meow Wow.
Lastly, all Nobodies get (non combat applicable) Type 8 Immortality reliant on their own heart, as they´ll come back to a whole afterwards if slain, which notably affects Organization XIII members while as Nobodies (As we all know, for example, Xemnas, Roxas, Xio and Lea got hearts later on)
And before any staff member asks, if it wasn´t obvious, this affects the whole verse (including the verse page itself with the descriptions), plus Composite Mickey
Update
Okay, so there´s a last minute change regarding the "underlined" part, it seems just Non-Physical Interaction is better (As having conceptual attacks on everything is just too crazy to say the least), as Dragonmasterxyz elaborated well:
"And example Cal brings up is Digimon in which fighting Conceptual Entities is extremely common. However, said characters who manage to actually permanently kill these beings don't get "Conceptual attacks with every hit", but "Can kill Abstract Entities (Type X) and beings with X Regenerationn". Or Susanoomon who killed Lucemon with one of his basic attacks doesn't get Conceptual Manipulation with every hit, but, well, what I said above. I am also pretty sure we never gave characters constant conceptual attacks for this reason. I can always make a thread to double check this however."
Which leads to te following changes instead so far (in a nutshell):
- No more conceptual hax in general but Xehanort, Terra, Heartless and Nobodies (With the true X-Blade, as he could conceptually one shot Kairi, respectively; Terra has a feat of unwillingly manipulating a heart via Maleficent´s mindhax; Heartless and Nobodies can absorb hearts), it gets replaced with NPI for everybody else (and Xehanort gets it too)
- Sora, Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, Lea, Mickey, Donald, Goofy and Sora´s summons keep the resistance to concept manip, but via scaling from being able to take hits from Xehanort, or being comparable to Sora, Donald and Goofy
- EE and Abstract Existence stay
And once again, this affects the whole verse (including the verse page itself with the descriptions), plus Composite Mickey
Okay, so I´ve noticed there´s a common misconception of KH´s "hearts" being taken as just a fancy name for a "soul", which are actually separate, all thanks to the inaccurate description the verse page gives.
Okay, so, before you ask "Where is that supported?", I´ll go ahead and say it:
In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).
Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
What could the heart be?
The answer may surprise you, it´s actually the conceptual aspect of a being.
What supports this?
Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology.
There´s also what TheSpeedster98 pointed out, aka, the following:
Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs
Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45
The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s
Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
What this leads to?
This leads into the "heart" being actually a type 3 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence
"3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. (...)
This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify."
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable)
Which also leads into that:
This also scales to Sora´s summons as they can also destroy Heartless and Nobodies thanks to Sora making a bond with his own heart to them, which would also affect side characters that support anyone with a keyblade, like Beast and Meow Wow.
Lastly, all Nobodies get (non combat applicable) Type 8 Immortality reliant on their own heart, as they´ll come back to a whole afterwards if slain, which notably affects Organization XIII members while as Nobodies (As we all know, for example, Xemnas, Roxas, Xio and Lea got hearts later on)
And before any staff member asks, if it wasn´t obvious, this affects the whole verse (including the verse page itself with the descriptions), plus Composite Mickey
Update
Okay, so there´s a last minute change regarding the "underlined" part, it seems just Non-Physical Interaction is better (As having conceptual attacks on everything is just too crazy to say the least), as Dragonmasterxyz elaborated well:
"And example Cal brings up is Digimon in which fighting Conceptual Entities is extremely common. However, said characters who manage to actually permanently kill these beings don't get "Conceptual attacks with every hit", but "Can kill Abstract Entities (Type X) and beings with X Regenerationn". Or Susanoomon who killed Lucemon with one of his basic attacks doesn't get Conceptual Manipulation with every hit, but, well, what I said above. I am also pretty sure we never gave characters constant conceptual attacks for this reason. I can always make a thread to double check this however."
Which leads to te following changes instead so far (in a nutshell):
- No more conceptual hax in general but Xehanort, Terra, Heartless and Nobodies (With the true X-Blade, as he could conceptually one shot Kairi, respectively; Terra has a feat of unwillingly manipulating a heart via Maleficent´s mindhax; Heartless and Nobodies can absorb hearts), it gets replaced with NPI for everybody else (and Xehanort gets it too)
- Sora, Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, Lea, Mickey, Donald, Goofy and Sora´s summons keep the resistance to concept manip, but via scaling from being able to take hits from Xehanort, or being comparable to Sora, Donald and Goofy
- EE and Abstract Existence stay
And once again, this affects the whole verse (including the verse page itself with the descriptions), plus Composite Mickey
