KH Low 1-C 6-D Upgrade: Mickey Mouse Clubhouse

[Bobsican]

Assuming that the starting premises are correct (i.e.: that the Ocean Between has been accepted as a 5-D structure, and that it possesses it's own space-time continuum), I believe this does indeed fit what the tiering system FAQ describes and should therefore be 6-D. However, I would like someone knowledgeable on tier 1 standards to verify that we are not misinterpreting the tiering system FAQ's statements.

I may as well point out this kind of semantics has precedent of being tier 1, higher than just 5-D, even, such as this.

What I'm admittedly struggling to understand is the case for the Ocean Between having a timeline in the first place. I imagine it's primarily due to a lack of knowledge on the verse itself, but I don't quite get what the premises in the linked blog are trying to say. For one example:

"The mere fact Mickey and company time traveled from the "present" to quite far in the past requires a time axis to begin with, and per the above we do know that the times of the "worlds" they'd be on would have been established way after the timeline of the "world" of the age of fairytales ceased to be, this combined with how they'd have to have been in the Ocean Between at the time (Mickey, Chip and Dale appear with a Star Shard, a device to travel across the "worlds", and Donald and Goofy appear with a Gummi Ship, another device to travel across the "worlds" too), leads to the considerable implication that the Ocean Between has its own time axis, especially considering that they also went back into the Ocean Between to seemingly go back into the future."

This seems like one of the crux paragraphs, but despite re-reading it multiple times, I don't know what exactly it proves. In regards to the fact that "Mickey and company time travelled from the present to quite far off in the past", couldn't they have done so while in one of the worlds with an established time axis rather than the Ocean Between? You do address that they appear with a Star Shard, a device to "travel across the worlds", but I don't see how this shows they time travelled while in the Ocean Between rather than in one of the worlds. We know that they went into the Ocean Between at some point, and we also know that they time travelled at some point, but it's not clear whether they did both at the same point - these could have been independent events, for what I can tell. What shows that they had to have been in the Ocean Between rather than another world when they time travelled?

Well, it does seem they're implied to have been traveling across the worlds before ending up in the age of fairytales, as not only they don't use the Gummi Ship o Star Shards to travel inside a world out of keeping world order, Mickey notes that he was using the Star Shard to get to another world and was in a hurry. So it'd be reasonable to claim they were in the Ocean Between while time traveling, rather than already in a world considering that's out of character and thus overall move assumptive as said before.

This also seems worth quoting to make some of the above clearer:

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Famitsu-Weekly-Interview-December-2009-1228
--- In released images the King holds the "star fragment" that also shimmered.

Nomura: The King uses this item to travel outside the worlds. At this point it is called a ‘star fragment', but later it will be established as the Gummi parts called Gummi Blocks.

For another thing:

"As further proof, there's also how the Realm of Darkness is stated to parallel the Realm of Light (with the Realm of Light being the main portion of the Ocean Between given the same overall definition), yet the Realm of Darkness is stated to specifically lack time, implying that this is different from the Realm of Light (and thus the Ocean Between by definition), with the Realm of Light being the main area for most main characters, including Aqua (the one stating it)."

The Realm of Darkness is stated to be the parallel for the Realm of Light, and the Realm of Darkness is stated to have no time. This much appears to be true, but I'm not sure I understand the implication here - the two realms being "parallels" of one another can mean many things, many possibilities of which don't inherently mean their approach to time in particular is mirrored. If they are "parallel" (just for one example, not necessarily the correct example) in the sense that the physical world in the Realm of Light is mirrored in the Realm of Darkness, this doesn't really have any implications on how the two realms treat time. The fact that the Realm of Darkness doesn't possess time doesn't inherently mean the Realm of Light does (or, more specifically, that all of it possesses time).

As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness.

- DIrector's Secret Report XIII

And keeping in mind that the Realm of Light alongside the Realm Between are basically the Ocean Between, it's clear that being "parallel" in this context is talking about them being similar structures, in fact that was accepted in the previous thread while making the infinite speed stuff valid, as it's basically a qualitative infinite 5-D structure like it, even fitting entire universes within it not unlike the Ocean Between.

And another thing:

"Finally, the Master of Masters does a monologue about how they will end the world and discard time (explicitly including beyond the "world" of the age of fairytales, thus the Ocean Between), all to defeat the darkness."

The quote in question linked states "That's why we need to leave this world - to bring it to an end, to abandon the notion of time and what separates our worlds. All so we can defeat the darkness.". Even if "what separates our worlds" is the Ocean Between, this doesn't conflate the two concepts together - in fact, it refers to abandoning the "notion of time" and "what separates our worlds" independently. This doesn't suggest time is a part of "what separates our worlds".

Well, as you've quoted, note how he mentions before hand "we need to leave this world", and in that context would refer to the one of the age of fairytales, which makes sense considering that this world is then erased as a whole a bit later. See the first paragraph of the blog in the OP for more information on that.

I know this post has already gone on obnoxiously long, but my point is that every interpretation I've seen in the blog seems to leave some room for doubt - I've not seen anything give a very strong case for the Ocean Between possessing it's own time axis, just a few things that might suggest it. I'd like elaboration on the points I've brought up, because most of what I've seen seems speculative and open to doubt.

Yeah, this series likes to be vague at times on stuff so users may try to connect the dots by themselves, which in turn is why I'm presenting multiple implications in relation to the premise, overall making a decent case of this idea in relation to the cosmology of the series.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[ThanatosX]

I am on a break from the wiki, but I guess I can give my opinion on this revision considering that it's about a verse that I know well. I am bored anyways.

So, the argument for the Ocean Between being 6-D makes sense. A single world is a 4-D structure (3 spatial dimension + 1 temporal dimension), which makes the space of the Ocean Between 5-D, since it would have an additional spacial axis compared to the already 4-D worlds. Considering that the Ocean Between have time, it would also have an additional time axis compared to the 4-D world, making it 6-D (4-D + 1 spatial dimension + 1 temporal dimension).
My only problem would have been if this was the first time that this argument was made to upgrade a verse to 6-D, but after reading the revision linked by Bob I noticed the argument is pretty much identical to this one, and was even approved by Ultima. So, considering the FAQ and the previous cases, there shouldn't be any problem to upgrade.

Regarding the argument of the Ocean Between having time, I think that the blog give a good explanation to it. The definition itself basically confirm this.
In that, the Realm of Light and the Realm Between (or the Ocean Between) are described and then immediately after it says that the Realm of Darkness, contrary to the previous two, exist in a space closed off from time. This means that the Realm of Light and the Realm Between do have time, while the Realm of Darkness lacks it.
To heavily support this, there is the time travel of Mickey, Donald and Goofy (which I honestly forgot even happened, I hope it will be explained later in the series). The Star Shard works by almost instantly throwing the user outside the world they are in, while the Gunmiship is specifically used to travel in the Ocean Between. So, it's extremely unlikely that the time travel happened while they were inside a world, considering that they were also traveling to other worlds.
Everything else are good supporting statements.

Overall, I agree with the Kingdom Hearts cosmology being 6-D. If this will be accepted, a cosmology blog would be useful, too.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm not well versed in our tier 1 standards as I'd like to be but the OP seems fine from what I've read in the blog.

 

[Bobsican]

Overall, I agree with the Kingdom Hearts cosmology being 6-D. If this will be accepted, a cosmology blog would be useful, too.

I already made one, actually, I'll add the 6-D stuff regarding the Ocean Between once this is fully accepted.

Now all that's left is probably waiting for @DarkGrath to reply, as from there it should be sufficient staff input to get this accepted (if she doesn't have further objections, of course)

 

[Bobsican]

Stuff

Bump

 

[GrathOfLux]

I apologise for my late reply to this. I've gone through and taken a look at the responses I've missed.

The link provided by both Bobsican and ThanatosX about the Three Realms (this, for context), clears any reasonable doubts I've had (apart from, say, translation matters, but I'll assume the translation is correct). Specifically, what clears my contentions is this quote:

"The worlds Sora travels are divided into three regions: the realm of light, the realm of darkness, and the realm between. Worlds in the realm of light and the realm between exist as planets in a great sea of stars, which Sora and his friends explore aboard their smile-powered gummi ship. The realm of darkness, however, exists in a space closed off from time. It is accessible only via dark corridors—pathways that open for agents of darkness, or when worlds become unstable—or by using the "power of waking." As a result, Aqua has spent years wandering the realm of darkness, unable to return to the light.

This quote in particular makes it quite clear that the Realm of Darkness does not have time, but the Realm Between does. As such, I believe this constitutes enough evidence to suggest that the Ocean Between possesses its own time, and by virtue of being a 5-D "container" of 4-D universes, the extra dimension of time would have to constitute at least 6-D. Ergo, this revision can be passed.

 

[Bobsican]

Very well, thanks everyone.

Now the pages will be slowly updated in the following days.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sensational.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Eh. This sounds pretty shaky to me. If the Ocean Between is depicted as having a temporal dimension which all the worlds inside of it exist in, then the most reasonable course would be to simply assume that they are all displaced over the same, single time direction, instead of concluding that there is a higher temporal dimension at play.

I assume that the latter is being concluded due to how (Taking these from Milly's previous thread) worlds in Kingdom Hearts are stated to have different flows of time in multiple occasions, therefore each world would also have its own time dimension that is separate from the time dimension of the Ocean Between, but I believe it's already well-established that two planes having differing time flows isn't necessarily indicative of them existing in different temporal dimensions, seeing as, even in our universe, time isn't uniform for all areas of space. So, with that gone, it seems the main crutch for the existence of a higher time dimension doesn't exist anymore.

With the above in mind, the set-up of the cosmology seems like it would shift to worlds being 3-dimensional spaces, all displaced over an infinitely large 4-dimensional region, which in turn has one added temporal dimension. It is still a Low 1-C cosmology, but it isn't 6-D.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Between, but I believe it's already well-established that two planes having differing time flows isn't necessarily indicative of them existing in different temporal dimensions, seeing as, even in our universe, time isn't uniform for all areas of space.

This is true, but all planets exist in one singular universe, one plane of reality. They all follow the same axis, despite different flows. But Kingdom Hearts explicitly has uncountable worlds, with Joshua claiming that each world is not only harboring a new time axis, but if all the worlds were truly harboring the same axis (a parallel world), time would flow the same. Therefore, they’re not parallel worlds, they’re entirely distinct, separated by space, and time. I think that’s more than enough to assert that these all cannot share one axis across an entire 2-B cosmology. Therefore, 3 + 1 for every universe. A different time axis, a different time flow.

Xehanort would be a reinforcement of this, claiming that some worlds have begun, some worlds are completed, and some worlds are… “still”. Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t know any planet on earth that’s absolutely still. We talked about it on discord, so I disagree with the premise that each of this worlds are only 3-D with a shared time axis across the multiverse, and then a 4th coordinate that infinitely encompasses them.

 

[Bobsican]

To back what Milly is saying, the "worlds" in the setting of KH are accepted as universal 4-D structures, this not only comes from some of them being downright called universes and timelines (points 3 and 4 here), and thus fitting this criteria of the Universe page (point 7, here) to be deemed a 4D multiverse, but them also being explicitly spatially separate and overall having blatant criteria to claim they're universes even if they weren't just called so, more information on all of that here.

 

[Bobsican]

Chances are I'll be called out if Ultima's mind isn't changed, so bump.

 

[ThanatosX]

Ultima's concern would be correct if each World simply had a different flow of time. However, in this case it's stated that each world is a separate universe/timeline that operates on their own time axis and have a different time flow.
Given all of this, it would be impossible for the Ocean Between to have the same temporal dimension as the singular worlds it contains, considering that each of them operates on their own time axis.
So I disagree too with the idea that there is only one big temporal dimension, since all the statements of the series point to the opposite.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is true, but all planets exist in one singular universe, one plane of reality. They all follow the same axis, despite different flows. But Kingdom Hearts explicitly has uncountable worlds, with Joshua claiming that each world is not only harboring a new time axis, but if all the worlds were truly harboring the same axis (a parallel world), time would flow the same. Therefore, they’re not parallel worlds, they’re entirely distinct, separated by space, and time. I think that’s more than enough to assert that these all cannot share one axis across an entire 2-B cosmology. Therefore, 3 + 1 for every universe. A different time axis, a different time flow.

Xehanort would be a reinforcement of this, claiming that some worlds have begun, some worlds are completed, and some worlds are… “still”. Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t know any planet on earth that’s absolutely still.

The statements about worlds each having different time axes pretty clearly is just treating "Has a different time axis" as synonymous with "Time flows differently there." As you said, by the logic used in the statement, two worlds having the same time axis would mean that time flows the same in both of them, which is not really a necessary consequence of sharing a temporal dimension. Multiple things can move through a single time direction at different rates. So it's rather obvious the verse is not really using "time axis" as a term for "temporal dimension" here.

To back what Milly is saying, the "worlds" in the setting of KH are accepted as universal 4-D structures, this not only comes from some of them being downright called universes and timelines (points 3 and 4 here), and thus fitting this criteria of the Universe page (point 7, here) to be deemed a 4D multiverse, but them also being explicitly spatially separate and overall having blatant criteria to claim they're universes even if they weren't just called so, more information on all of that here.

Point 3 is pretty weak. The statement, it appears, is this:

--- Is this during the first Toy Story movie in the timeline?

Nomura: The Toy Story world has an original story that cuts out [from the timeline] after the second film, Sora and company aren’t tied up in the [film stories]. It’s not a parallel setting. Events in KHIII will also be included in the Toy Story series timeline.

Which uses timeline not as in "space-time continuum" but as in "the timeline of a (movie) series." The chronological order in which it takes place. Point 4 is similarly weak because the worlds being referred to as being universes is not necessarily mutually exclusive with them sharing the same time dimension.

And for the matter neither is the worlds being spatially separated something that indicates they don't share one time dimension, either.

 

[ThanatosX]

The statements about worlds each having different time axes pretty clearly is just treating "Has a different time axis" as synonymous with "Time flows differently there." As you said, by the logic used in the statement, two worlds having the same time axis would mean that time flows the same in both of them, which is not really a necessary consequence of sharing a temporal dimension. Multiple things can move through a single time direction at different rates. So it's rather obvious the verse is not really using "time axis" as a term for "temporal dimension" here.

That's not true. The statement is:
"So what? That's true of any two worlds. Their home world would be running on a different time axis, too".
The "too" clearly means that, on top of having a different time flow, they also operate on a different time axis. In my opinion it's really arbitrary by your part to say that they simply means that time flows different when the statement is pretty clear in saying that worlds operate on separate time axis. Can you prove in any way that this is not just your interpretation and that's what they actually means, despite the statement clearly referring to time axis as something separate to the different flow of time?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I more agree with Ultima this time, should have evaluated scans precise.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, the Master of Masters could write a book detailing multiple events of the far future from a Low 2-C structure that was erased a few years later in its perspective, but more importantly, this also included stuff from universes that had yet to even exist (note how Eraqus then uses a clarifying methapor of the topic implying that "worlds" also just start existing at variable rates, which Xehanort then affirms that's correct. If you want examples of "worlds" on that regard, look no further than all of the ones "retroactively" featured in UX as they're just materialized digital clones based on records of those distant futures), and I think I've made it clear that the "world" of the age of fairytales and the resulting ones from it don't coexist at the same time, meaning that they'd have a separate time axis from the original world, while also displaying that there's an extra timeline to allow the pace of universes being born and so on.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Stay on topic, please.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So what is exactly are you purposing? Offending someone and that someone should shut the **** up or else that someone is "derailing" with all due respect.

No need to use such crude language. All I'm saying is that you could easily have been the morally superior one, so to speak, and not partaken in that little spat. Regardless, as stated above, they are right, we should remain on topic.

 

[ImmortalDread]

All I'm saying is that you could easily have been the morally superior one, so to speak, and not partaken in that little spat. Regardless, as stated above, they are right, we should remain on topic.

Noted

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The statements about worlds each having different time axes pretty clearly is just treating "Has a different time axis" as synonymous with "Time flows differently there."

This patently isn’t the case, and isn’t what they’re going for. Time flies differently because there is a different time axis across every world, Riku makes it explicit clear that’s the case, even as far as saving as if it’s a passing fact. It’s only until Joshua said if they were truly parallel, time would flow the same in both. There’s no objective way around it, the interpretation that’s evidenced is that these are entirely distinct worlds, separate, parted by time and space.

In the words of Joshua, “which tells me that for all of their similarities, these are two distinct worlds”, and the basis of this claim is the fact that each world utilizes a separate time axis to make this possible to begin with.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m not going to lie—I’m done waiting. Ultima is a knowledgeable member and friend, but it isn’t right to have to wait two months and some change for a response. I’m aware of the responsibilities of other tiering threads, but nothing disavows him from simply making a new CRT if he still disagrees. This thread has three separate mods agreeing with the premise anyways, so it’s not as if staff and majority aren’t in our favor.

I say this has been more than accepted by now.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Wow, ngl I forgot this even existed. Definitely right tho imo at least, bro's been keeping us on hold for basically forever

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, this has met the requirements for acceptance in case anyone's asking

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, now we wait 48 hours.

 

[Lonkitt]

Actually, this can just be applied ASAP. The thread is already over 48 hours old

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will start tomorrow.