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Kenganverse General Discussion Board

The tip of the whip is stated to be supersonic in the chapter. Ohma slices of the tip before it hit him. They even make a point how this should be impossible for humans to react to because it's supersonic. And right after, he says the Guardian guy so fast, even when holding back. Even when he just reacted to a supersonic whip.

All we see is the gun being fired followed by him moving.

It's stated in the chapter that first the boom was heard followed by the destruction of concrete. This is coming from Jerry btw, a solid mid-tier fighter of the verse.

True, but considering that Muteba was seen surrounded by numerous armed gunmen, and is usually seen fighting in wars where guns are involved, and yet has never been shot, supports the notion the

The scene demonstrates that he's moving his hair to block the bullets. It's a reaction shot.
 
The tip of the whip is stated to be be CAPABLE of breaking the 'sound barrier'. The tips of whips do not always exceed the sound barrier, and they only actually breach the sound barrier (in bull whips) for a very, very, VERY brief period during their motion due to a loop traveling the length of the whip: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/true-cause-of-whips-crack/

Due to the fact of us not knowing how fast the whip was being wielded, and due to Ohma having had several feet of it moving to react, there's literally no way to calc that feat.

For Akoya, there's nothing to calc due to context. We need to know when Akoya began moving; with his 100ms reaction times, did he start moving when the dude's finger was pulling the trigger? When his body tensed up to prep for that? We don't know.

Jerry says "a loud roar", not a boom. That's pretty consistent with the sound of the concrete exploding on impact and then his eyes being draw to the destruction. There's nothing supersonic in that scene.

Muteba being surrounded by armed men does not mean he bullet timed. It's a weak case.

Inaba literally does not move his hair since it's a single panel, and the guy is firing a Tommygun right at his hair. Nothing here is calcable
 
The chapter makes a point that the tip breaks the sound barrier, especially if the tip is wielded by a master, like the body guard Ohma was sparring against. Ohma was at the very end of the attack, and they even take the time to point out that the body guard was amazed at at the fact the tip was destroyed during the attack. Why would the body hairs be amazed if Ohma just hit the attack whenever?

The placement of his body along with the gun smoke helped a lot so the context in the current calc.

Boom is synonymous with roar, and the fact that even fighters like Jerry who were a bit of ways away could only hear the boom before seeing the ground break supports supersonic.

When taking into consideration the number of wars he's fought in, along with the fact he's never been shot, bullet timing is supported.

We literally see his hands being moved. His hair isn't so stiff that he can just throw it up and it will stay there, he has to control it with his hair. Calculations don't matter, it's a supporting feat that shows bullets can be handled.
 
entire of those feats are objective and accepted by everyone such as calculation team. subjective is your headcanon for making assumtions such as every single character in series having precognition or precognition ability without having any need to speed is enough for dodging or deflecting something.

your downplaying is hilarious and pointless and no one listens to it. accepted calculations by calculation team > subjective headcanon.

User blog:Muchacho mrm/Justice

User blog:DMUA/Kengan Ashua: Kurosaki Gensai is a sizable lad but not a slow lad

User blog:Muchacho mrm/A Bullet Or A Beard

User blog:Xulrev/Mikazuchi Rei Speed Calc

[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]

there is just too many bullet speed feats

also it never stated "capable of" but "can literally break the sound barrier"

and nice job for appealing to reality. a fiction doesn't need to following up reality laws. a whip in fiction can be far faster than whips in reality. also in same chapter guardian's physical moves were far faster than whip attacks and a bigger challenge for Ohma,

you are getting feats out of context for downplaying them too. clearly akoya moved right after firing and we can see smoke in air [9]

anyway in end calculation team accepted those feats so your subjective downplays are pointless.
 
Yeaaaahhh....one of those is my own blog you realize, and none of them are....actually accepted and applied? You do recognize that, right? As well as the fact that the calc team just verifies the math?

Calling it headcanon is worthless since I'm actually the one analyzing the feats objectively. Nothing that can be called bullet timing exists in Kengan, and several claims are made to the exact contrary. We also are told, outright, that Akoya Seishu with a reaction time of roughly 100ms is one of, if not the, fastest person in Kengan as of Kengan Omega.

I really am getting tired of discussing this in circles; someone just show an objective bullet timing calc please. Literally all of the defense of the bullet timing relies on actual headcanon that occurs off panel
 
We have the above feats that support supersonic. Even if you don't want to accept Akoya's, we still have Bando and Ohma at least supersonic feats which are supported by Muteba's feats at the very least.


@general

Btw, did anyone reach out to anyone about the calc? I wouldn't recommend Dargoo since he's busy irl but we need someone who is both good at calcs but at least somewhat familiar with Kengan to discuss it with.
 
except Akoya Feat already was accepted and applied. his feat even is linked in Tokita Ohma profile and according to DMUA calculation was ok

and according to AlexSoloVaAlFuturo Kuroki Feat is fine too.

this one also was calculated by DMUA himself. unless you are telling me a member of calculation team is wrong?

and damn no one ever said your own calculated feat is wrong. only according to DMUA your feat was subsonic not supersonic

also calc team doesn't just verify math. they are supposed to checking calcs and finding they are calculable in general or not.

also you are telling me this feat isn't objective too? like really? [1]

and except even fodder featless beings in verse were capable of blitzing and defeating armed soldiers [2][3] in second scan you can see fired bullets too.

also Haru, Cosmo and Ryuki were capable of keeping up with Akoya, blitzing and hitting him so we can scale other fighters from them too. not to mention Akoya's speed scales below Rei and yet Raian blocked Rei attack and called it as slow. Ohma also constantly blitzed Raian. even saw paing kept up with Rei and... so i don't see any problem with scaling chain.
 
No need to start getting nasty people


Let just take this to an unbiased third party, present both side of the argument, and let whatever happens happen, cause we're clearly not gonna get anywhere like this.
 
I'm fine with the unbiased third party suggestion, if ever we want to try and make the verse hypersonic based on the feats provided, as Monkey suggests. Just make a Staff thread and present both cases, perhaps?
 
Xulrev said:
Thankfully I dont have to do anything of the sort! Thank the lord for Burden of Proof
Click to expand...
As far as I see it, if the words of the author are put in complete doubt with characters doing feats that are entirely impossible by his own admission of how fast the characters are, why do we suddenly default to him still being correct and the opposite needing to be proved? Are we also gonna shift the meed of proof the other way in series where stuff is called supersonic at best despite clear feats doing otherwise? Rather, the only feat that supports this is Kuroki's, which doesn't wholly support it even as he directly refers to the bullet as "slower than he thought". As for why I say the Niko feat doesn't support this, we are shown Niko directly moving after the shot was made. If you know of motion or movement lines, you'd notice that we clearly see him lifting his hand up in a semi circular motion, and the lines around his cowl and body indicates he not only moved his arm, he moved closer to stand between the bullet and Ohma. Why? Because he was shown nowhere near Ohma after he fell and at no point until after the shot does he try to move closer.

Also, more of a side inquiry, but due the values for Faster than Eye movement vary depending how far away an observer is and the size of the object going Faster than Eye? I know you aren't a calc member Xul, but you may know about this for all I know.

P.S.: I tried editing this comment with those extra bits of text and the relevant links like 3 times in a row and it got eaten each damn time. I hate fandom sometimes, I really do.
 
For Niko, we are outright told how he redirects bullets: https://i.imgur.com/t8tg6nU.png

My thing is, the author puts explicit limitations upon his characters, and is skirting those boundaries by applying 'realistic' martial arts fuckery to make them superhuman. It's outright directly stated; if we calc it to bullet-timing, we are told what the result ACTUALLY IS so if our calc disagrees, we messed up on our base presumptions.

As to the FTE; I'm not 100% sure. I think the distance doesn't matter and I'm like 95% positive it doesn't, however, seeing how as FTE has a set value in the Speed page on the wiki (if you move FTE to someone with [X] reactions, you're within [Y]-[Z] speed range, and distance has never factored into it from what I've seen).
 
But that's the thing, we get this told outright. What we get show outright is that before the explanation and the bit where Niko is far from the gun and only moving his hands minimally, so his speed shouldn't scale, his first maneuver is a completely stationary Niko that isn't even close to the area between the mobster with a gun and Ohma, rush to that area, lift his hand at least 90 degrees, and veer said bullet off course after the dude fires.

The author talks about "humans can't compare to this" as an impossibility in the same series where a black mercenary can slip his hand inside your ribs and tap your heart to death, kids are mauled with hammers to make their bones like goddamn steel, the Fang creates whole ass special made martial arts in moments, a dude can extend his arms like whips to kill people, another fostered his muscles until he could push back against a Formula 1 car accelerating at full power, an assassin clan reinforce their hair until it can stop bullets and control it like extremities... stuff being beyond the realm of humans is half of this entire manga, if the fact that said statement about humans not comparing in speed is made right after a human quite obviously compares in speed to a bullet isn't refutation enough that there's no reason to take that statement seriously - feats above statements and all that.

You are speaking to me about "the series explaining how it was done" without applying that theory to practice and seeing how it fails: Niko moved after that bullet and still caught up to it. Bullet prediction doesn't shorten the distance he needed to travel, just tells him where to put his hand. Kuroki "predicted" when the bullet would shot, yet unless anyone wants to speculate that his statement referred to something else entirely, he not only perceived the bullet but found it slower than he had anticipated. I am not sure about you, but this doesn't sound at all like clear cut "nah, WoG is right, they cannot even perceive them" proof.

Hmm... I'll try asking another calc group member later just in case, but that makes sense.
 
Hey we can try to apply post-hoc explanations all day long, but at the end of the day we have objective data from numerous people in-series. Kuroki, Niko, and Erioh Kure, altogether three of the strongest fighters we've seen really (two annihilation tourney champs and a man with such skill that his protege finally grasping all of his techniques was someone at full health one of those two champs would desperately want to fight) all have explicit statements, and demonstrations, of an inability to react to bullets. Erioh has the most 'objective' bullet dodge but look at the damn next page: https://i.imgur.com/scrS1yB.png

We have consistent confirmation that it's all aim-dodging and moving before the bullet is fired.

I won't budge from a stance of 'hey the technique used to dodge bullets has a canon explanation' just because people calc it incorrectly from flawed presumptions.
 
That is still putting pure statements above actual feats. The author is the mouthpiece through which the characters talk. If we disregard WoG when clear feats defy what is said, what other characters say should be no different. That has always been the case here unless the feats had something incongruous, which so far they haven't at all. Or rather, neither Kuroki nor Niko say any of the stuff in question about humans not comparing to bullets, that's purely narration text to provide context. You are telling me they can't react when Niko almost casually moves all the distance to intercept the bullet while having no problem keeping up with people on his level - not to mention his technique to deal with bullets has nothing to do with precog, just with realizing the path of the bullet.

Oh no, all we have are two instances of explanations, one of humans not being comparable to things like bullets (which is honest utter bullshit and empty when unarmed humans shouldn't be able to kill bear eithers and Wakatsuki casually destroyed a dude who could, or humans shouldn't be able to crack concrete with their bare hands without a single injury, this has never been about normal humans), and the second one is about dodging attacks that are quicker by acting first. That's... literally it. The second falls completely apart when Niko had to move as fast as the first bullet to even veer it off, the second is dubious at best since Kuroki could obviously perceive the bullet.

But that's stupidly wrong Xul, there's no flawed presumptions. You would need to be acting willfully ignorant to tell me "I can see what path this bullet takes" equals "Space shrinks because I was nowhere near that bullet, yet still caught it after it was fired, which should be impossible if I am not comparable in speed". It still doesn't explain how Muteba deals with multiple armed man, many with automatic weapons and one with a minigun, for 2 entire minutes of combat and not a single bullet touches him with no nearby cover, it doesn't explain Inaba who isn't a top tier dealing with bullets using his hair (especially when the Inaba clan has never been shown having a technique to precog moves like Kuroki and Kanoh). It is downright absurd that you stick to contradicted statements when we completely disregard them ALL THE TIME when they don't align with feats.
 
I think we just disagree on what is superior in terms of factual quality.

For instance. You're of the presumption that we can ignore the author to justify what the author shows us (feats first).

I'm of the opinion we can ignore stylized drawing to justify what the author tells us (statements first).

Obviously I'm being reductionist a bit here but you get the idea.

If we examine Kengan solely your way, Lancelot, then why do we evenaccept pre movement as existing. After all, it only exists to explain bullet dodging in Kengan, and youve shown a willingness to outright ignore the author. Youre borderline advocating we just ignore objective explanation because it is arbitrarily determined, solely by you, to be less valid than other things the author states, even tbough you can accept both as true
 
This isn't a consensus voting thread, or anything.

This is merely a discussion on the nuance of the issue at the moment.

I still maintain I'm objectively correct here, since going by any other presumptions leads us to ignoring Akoya having a scientifically-measured reaction time of 100ms, something that has on-panel feats to support, in lieu of saying he magically can have a reaction speed several dozen times that in a short timeframe. The same is true of Niko, Kuroki, Erioh, et all.

It's ludicrous to maintain Kengan is bullet timing in a verse where sub-100ms reactions are considered obscenely superhuman, and throwing out 4 strikes in 76ms (Akoya vs Haruo) or throwing out a dozen jabs in a breath (Gaolang's Flash), both feats which are considered absurd, would be rendered null and void by persuming they're hypersonic.

What, are they hypersonic for .0001 seconds at a time and then go back to their base physicals that the author gives us feats for?

EDIT: Oh and Imai Cosmo's 'Zone', a technique which nearly caught Akoya offguard, takes exactly 100ms to enact. Yet that's a technique considered lethal against almost all fighters in the Annihilation Tourney, and it can only be reacted to by predicting it since he showed it off in his first match. The list carries on
 
writer intention is irrevelant and doesn't necessary happen in story. that is called death of author fallacy (preferring writer's intentions over actual feats and statements). based on that logic Demonbane verse even isn't 4D. yet verse had outerversal feats and statements. that's also like saying Dies Irae commanders are slower than lightning because of writer intentions (according to writer they are slower than lightning yet they had calculated ftl+ feats).

writer had intention for making realistic martial arts? yet Wakatsuki and Julius were capable of shaking a stadium through their casual blows or Wakatsuke as a child broke Titanium controller or Agito in minutes is capable of adapting to your style and making a specfic anti style for countering you. yes clearly seems realistic.

"if you watch for the moment you fire it" implies Erioh being capable of doding bullet right after firing (in exact momen) and having comparable speeds with it.

imma repeat it again. predicting something for dodging said thing isn's enough. you need to having comparable speeds. imagine i have normal human reactions with prediction. now do you think through predicting direction of atomatic weapons and machine guns i can dodge them? or i can deflect them similar to Niko?

also Niko in best moment "hardened his muscles, reacted to bullets, touched and deflected them" that is completely a speed feat. Inaba also "reacted to bullets and touched them by his hair" too.

also you ignored my scans with featless beings being capable of soloing armed armies.

Akoya being as fast as 100ms also was writer intention but according to calculated feats and statements he is far faster than it. Koruki also called a bullet as slow.
 
Yeah sorry Xul but you seem to be the only one believing your objective thing. I can agree with you that we have to follow what the author intends, but hey I did that to Baki-verse and wasn't met well with the whole 0.5 thing. And it makes sense. There are limits to how much the author knows
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Yeah sorry Xul but you seem to be the only one believing your objective thing. I can agree with you that we have to follow what the author intends, but hey I did that to Baki-verse and wasn't met well with the whole 0.5 thing. And it makes sense. There are limits to how much the author knows
Click to expand...
I appreciate the candor here. Same with @Lancelot.

I'm not trying to be hostile here, it's just the narrative consistently, at all possible moments, tells us mitigating context for any and every possible 'bullet-timing' feat in Kengan. The narrative wouldn't go out of its way this hard if it were simply meant to just be bullet-timing.

So, if people want a hypersonic Kenganverse, we can absolutely see if any Staff are okay with a Staff Discussion thread on the verse and seeing if calcs reaching for hypersonic should ever be considered valid/make a Discussion Rule on the subject. If I'm out-voted, well oh well for my points then.
 
Xulrev said:
I appreciate the candor here. Same with @Lancelot.

I'm not trying to be hostile here, it's just the narrative consistently, at all possible moments, tells us mitigating context for any and every possible 'bullet-timing' feat in Kengan. The narrative wouldn't go out of its way this hard if it were simply meant to just be bullet-timing.

So, if people want a hypersonic Kenganverse, we can absolutely see if any Staff are okay with a Staff Discussion thread on the verse and seeing if calcs reaching for hypersonic should ever be considered valid/make a Discussion Rule on the subject. If I'm out-voted, well oh well for my points then.
Click to expand...
I do apologize if I came off heated, that'd be my bad. But your example of why my approach comes off wrong doesn't work. Motionlessness is a thing, Pre Initiative too, what the author says isn't non existent or ignored, what he says which is contradicted by what he shows is, because from the start the approach of this site is about analyzing the work itself and anything else is secondary and subject to requiring further proof to be taken at face value. Both the narrative intent/narration and the feats of the characters are part of the show too, but feats themselves are placed more prominently here (if they are consistent, which so far they have actually been).

The issue here is nothing more that consistency and a sort of hierarchy. Feats come before narration, if consistency of feats is maintained, because authors are fallible and their intent not aligning with what is shown is very common. We are arguing the equivalent of saying the author is wrong because he thinks splitting a big mountain is a more impressive show of power thwn vaporizing a smaller but still big hill, which we know is objectively wrong if the hill is big enough and gives a big enough yield of energy. You'd have a bigger point if we were arguing the same thing but the character that vaporized the rock was hurt by much weaker attacks consistently, throwing the consistency of the vaped hill in question as an outlier.
 
Again, I disagree on the fundamental position of the argument at-hand, that of 'the feats are more consistent'. The statements and context surrounding them are vehmently more consistent, from my POV.

If you want we can just keep circling the same argument, but I think we've pretty well exhausted it. Any time the potentiality of hypersonic Kengan comes up, I'll just point out why it shouldn't; barring that, we could do a Staff thread for the verse and say "Hey, this is an issue with the verse, people want it to be [X], but a lot of context shows it to be [Y], should we have a Discussion Rule to prevent constant bickering over [X] vs [Y] portrayal of the verse on-site?'
 
If we call as slow as Hypersonic then I'm okay with that. But they should still be able to bullet dodge with ease at around Supersonic+. For a series, that is hammering us with peak human explanation of the feat like super reflex and Zone, the verse has a lot of Supersonic feats, even bodyguards are able to do it with whip, and that's said even in JP version, that's why Hypersonic wasn't deemed as outlier. Bullet timing is one of them, yeah Niko moved his hand before it but he still needs to move his hand fast enough, do it with peak human speeds and your hand will bleed. It's the same thing with Baki all over again, that 0.5 second thing was just a mess because they got much higher speed feat.
 
The whip thing isn't even an accurate statement.

Literally anybody, you or me included, can snap a whip and the looping causes it to, potentially, hit mach speeds. Ohma didn't even react to the tip though, not in any objective timeframe at least since a whip's tip only hits that speed for literal fractions of a second.

It's not Baki, not even remotely close. Baki had a single statement of explicit reactions. Kengan has an entire story supporting it.
 
Xulrev said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
Thing is, that is already the precedent. The site already defaults mainly for feats, with statements as a secondary unless anti-feats exist that line up with said statements. This is not a Kengan Ashura thing, just a general thing. Is exactly why a whole discussion thread was made when Dargoo brought up potentially scaling Mob at ???% from a statement of the author outside the series despite there being nothing contradicting this possibility, beyond Mob's only scalable feat being way below where we have Tatsumaki, though the fact it was a feat done beyond casually lent it credence.
 
Outside the series is one thing. Consistent within series is another beast entirely. The precedent isnt extant here beyond Baki, which has a single statement
 
No clue how it'll go. Koga is not gonna win, that much is clear, but this doesn't feel like a set up to just have Koga destroyed by Xia Ji and not much else.

I can expect some surprise to come out and deal some measure of damage of surprise on Xia Ji. Regardless, don't think they'll injure Koga too much.
 
We'll see how much Koga has improved duringn his training. Probably he's not gonna win, but he will resist long enough until Ryuki arrives and do some surprising things
 
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