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Kenganverse General Discussion Board
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
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i said a small but good amount of stuff on ur blog page. well, one thing worth mentioning is, almost all the time, real life logic (mostly biology and that kidna stuff) barely applies. so when scaling, or when calcing stuff, u might wanna read the context and info given in the manga, instead of getting ur own info.
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Just to list them down, here are the feats that can be used for calcs:
- Kuroki Gensai defending against a modern rifle at close range. (TBD)
- Tokita Ohma destroying a large boulder with Ironbreaker. (TBD)
- Tokita Ohma destroying several trees with Demonsbane. (TBD)
- Julius Reinhold crushing a barbell into a ball. (TBD)
- Julius Reinhold pulling against an F1 racecar at full speed. (TBD)
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As aforementioned, we should include the Wakatsuki vs Reinhold feat, as the force of their punches colliding manage to shake the whole Kengan stadium and a little bit beyond.
Also, I think we should break Ohma's page into keys for throughout the series, as it's clear he got stronger over time either through training or reawakening his memories. Also, we need to include the Nil kata into his skill sets
Also, I think we should break Ohma's page into keys for throughout the series, as it's clear he got stronger over time either through training or reawakening his memories. Also, we need to include the Nil kata into his skill sets
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Agree. We really need to go over this verse a lot lol
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There's a lot of characters who're gonna need keys for the different rounds, either because they gained new abilities (Cosmo, Muteba) or they got stronger (Ohma, Hatsumi)
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pretty much
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- Thread starter
- #9
If we manage to gather enough solid feats to measure the difference in strength between different potential keys, then we'll do that. Unquantifiable differences in strength will just have to be ignored. This applies to all characters.
When I made Ohma's profile, I was thinking more along the lines of a "peak condition" Ohma. The one with all of his skills and without any of his accumulated damage. It wouldn't be fair for Ohma to go into VS matches already weakened physically for his higher keys, after all.
If we do separate Ohma into different keys, his late-tournament feats have to be taken with the consideration that he's already exhausted and dying. Flashback feats like his training with Niko would also be problematic, since we also have to consider that Ohma has gotten significantly stronger physically since Niko's death.
When I made Ohma's profile, I was thinking more along the lines of a "peak condition" Ohma. The one with all of his skills and without any of his accumulated damage. It wouldn't be fair for Ohma to go into VS matches already weakened physically for his higher keys, after all.
If we do separate Ohma into different keys, his late-tournament feats have to be taken with the consideration that he's already exhausted and dying. Flashback feats like his training with Niko would also be problematic, since we also have to consider that Ohma has gotten significantly stronger physically since Niko's death.
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good for us that we have statements in this show lol so we do know who is stronger than who from time to time.
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Well i think we do have to include the weaknesses and medical conditions that character have during certain arcs or keys, such as wii Meruem and All Might. We don't really have to include that damage they accumulate during that specific moment in time (like with Ultra Instinct Goku or Deku), but I think in Ohma's case, we just have to include that his heart and body in general are on the verge of collapse, which is preventing him from using the full power of Possessing Spirit, as noted by Ohma during his battle with Gensai.
There's other stuff that I'm thinking of when I mention listing weaknesses and injuries, like Muteba being half death by the 3rd round, or Wakatsuki being half blind along with his previous injury, etc.
There's other stuff that I'm thinking of when I mention listing weaknesses and injuries, like Muteba being half death by the 3rd round, or Wakatsuki being half blind along with his previous injury, etc.
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I think we need more people to work on this with us. We can't just be 3 CEO's
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- Thread starter
- #13
The problem is that the time span between Ohma's drastic improvements is pretty freaking small. Round 1, he barely managed Inaba and got stomped by Agito. Round 2 he knocked out Raia. Round 3, he out-grappled Cosmo. Round 4 he beat down Wakatsuki.
His physical strength doesn't increase at all over this time, only his skill, too. It's purely technique that got him from Low/Mid-tier to Top-tier. Skill is unquantifiable.
His physical strength doesn't increase at all over this time, only his skill, too. It's purely technique that got him from Low/Mid-tier to Top-tier. Skill is unquantifiable.
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Well it's sort of sort of debatable. In his fight against Inaba, Ohma was pretty much dominating even in base with brute strength, it was only when Inaba started using his hair that Ohma was starting to struggle, which makes sense since the Inaba clans hair is noted to far stronger than normal hair. But the second Ohma brought out the Advance he completely stomped Inaba and destroyed his hair with raw power, it's noted several times throughout the fight that Inaba was helpless against Ohma's brute strength.
Against Raian, it's literally stated by serveral prominent fighters that Ohma was surprisingly strong post training. Even the Fang was perplexed by Ohma's sudden boost in strength. Even Yamashita, who's observation skills are top tier, noticed the strength boost. So there's literal proof that his strength did increase. Of course, Ohma still gets stomped by base Raian through brute strength alone, and it's only when using Posessing Spirit that's he's able to do significant damage to Raian, who also acknowledges that Ohma's power had increased since the the first round. And that was just when Ohma was using the Advance, he hadn't even managed to bring out the full power of the Possesing Spirirt, which allowed him to fight on par with 100% Raian. Of course, once Possessing Spirt runs out, Ohma is forced to rely on skill and technique to out Raian down, but you still can't ignore all the previous statements and showing of Ohma's increased strength.
Against Cosmo, it was mostly a match of skill, since both Ohma and Cosmo were too beat up to bring out their full strength. Plus Cosmo isn't really a striker in the first place due to his small frame, and chooses to make up for his lack of strength through his supreme grappling. Plus, it's clear that Ohma was stronger than Cosmo in terms of raw strength since the beginning of the match, since Cosmo took extreme damage from Adam in the first round, who's pretty low tier in comparison to even round one Ohma.
Against Wakatsuki, Ohma was pretty much struggling the whole fight. While it is impressive that he could survive the monstrous attacks from Wakatsuki, both with and without Indestructible (which is more of a durability feat), it was only through the Demonsbane that he was able to since since he could divert the force of Wakatsuki's blows back at him. It was noted by Ohma that Wakatsuki surpassed him in power. Ohma even started that Indestructible was useless against Wakatsuki's strength. However this is also showing of his increase in power, as he went from getting OHKO'd by a casual Fang and gettin stomped by base Raian to being able to survive blows from then
So while he did rely on technique to help him towards the later parts of the manga, it's plain to see that he also saw a boost in strength and durability along the way. He's not the most physically powerful fighter in the series, as shown by his fights against Raian and Wakatsuki, who're pretty much the top tier along with Reinhold in terms of pure strength, but he's just strong enough that, in combination with the Niko style, he can stand toe to toe with these guys.
Against Raian, it's literally stated by serveral prominent fighters that Ohma was surprisingly strong post training. Even the Fang was perplexed by Ohma's sudden boost in strength. Even Yamashita, who's observation skills are top tier, noticed the strength boost. So there's literal proof that his strength did increase. Of course, Ohma still gets stomped by base Raian through brute strength alone, and it's only when using Posessing Spirit that's he's able to do significant damage to Raian, who also acknowledges that Ohma's power had increased since the the first round. And that was just when Ohma was using the Advance, he hadn't even managed to bring out the full power of the Possesing Spirirt, which allowed him to fight on par with 100% Raian. Of course, once Possessing Spirt runs out, Ohma is forced to rely on skill and technique to out Raian down, but you still can't ignore all the previous statements and showing of Ohma's increased strength.
Against Cosmo, it was mostly a match of skill, since both Ohma and Cosmo were too beat up to bring out their full strength. Plus Cosmo isn't really a striker in the first place due to his small frame, and chooses to make up for his lack of strength through his supreme grappling. Plus, it's clear that Ohma was stronger than Cosmo in terms of raw strength since the beginning of the match, since Cosmo took extreme damage from Adam in the first round, who's pretty low tier in comparison to even round one Ohma.
Against Wakatsuki, Ohma was pretty much struggling the whole fight. While it is impressive that he could survive the monstrous attacks from Wakatsuki, both with and without Indestructible (which is more of a durability feat), it was only through the Demonsbane that he was able to since since he could divert the force of Wakatsuki's blows back at him. It was noted by Ohma that Wakatsuki surpassed him in power. Ohma even started that Indestructible was useless against Wakatsuki's strength. However this is also showing of his increase in power, as he went from getting OHKO'd by a casual Fang and gettin stomped by base Raian to being able to survive blows from then
So while he did rely on technique to help him towards the later parts of the manga, it's plain to see that he also saw a boost in strength and durability along the way. He's not the most physically powerful fighter in the series, as shown by his fights against Raian and Wakatsuki, who're pretty much the top tier along with Reinhold in terms of pure strength, but he's just strong enough that, in combination with the Niko style, he can stand toe to toe with these guys.
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And it can still set a sufficient scaling chain of sorts to represent his increase of strength, because it is a thing that Raian would have easily overcomed him if he hadn't achieved any power boost by reacquiring some of his memories. There's also more obvious, significant increases like going from putting holes in a boulder to absolutely decimating and cracking one side of it with Iron Breaker.
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- Thread starter
- #16
All of those increases were just attributed to him executing his techniques better. Ironbreaker just gave him a bigger stat amp once he'd remembered how to do it properly. His actual base physical strength and speed didn't increase at all. That's why Adamatine Kata is listed as Statistics Amplification on the page I made for him, not just as a part of general Martial Arts.
All the fighters' (and Yamashita's) statements in regards to "strength" are referring to his skill level having drastically increased, allowing him to better use his base physical strength. Raian's remark of how Ohma was faster relates to how Ohma was, at that point in time, using more of the Advance than he did in the first round, as was stated a few panels later.
"Ghost Niko" even said it later. Ohma was physically weaker than Raian, so his techniques were what bridged the gap. The same techniques that barely hurt base Raian at the start of the match managed to knock him out clean as soon as Ohma remembered how to actually execute them perfectly; despite Ohma being obviously more tired than Raian was.
His durability seemingly increased because he became good enough with Indestructible to be using it every time he got hit. His striking strength seemingly increased because he became good enough with the Adamantine Kata to be using it nearly every time he threw a punch or kick.
All the fighters' (and Yamashita's) statements in regards to "strength" are referring to his skill level having drastically increased, allowing him to better use his base physical strength. Raian's remark of how Ohma was faster relates to how Ohma was, at that point in time, using more of the Advance than he did in the first round, as was stated a few panels later.
"Ghost Niko" even said it later. Ohma was physically weaker than Raian, so his techniques were what bridged the gap. The same techniques that barely hurt base Raian at the start of the match managed to knock him out clean as soon as Ohma remembered how to actually execute them perfectly; despite Ohma being obviously more tired than Raian was.
His durability seemingly increased because he became good enough with Indestructible to be using it every time he got hit. His striking strength seemingly increased because he became good enough with the Adamantine Kata to be using it nearly every time he threw a punch or kick.
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If a bigger level of skill allows him to exert more power, then obviously he should still be listed as growing stronger. Ohma was, after all, still managing to affect him with skills that, unlike Adamantine Kata, don't consist of any stat amping. It's still working on an obviously stronger opponent, and at that point if we decide that his punches hit harder and his defense is better because of his skill with Adamantine Kata and him using it more, it still makes Ohma more powerful at the end of the day, and still lets him match someone that was his superior in raw power who would have, without question, overwhelmed him before.
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^This
Plus, Ohma hadn't even really even started using his techniques 100% efficiently until after his revelation with Niko's ghost, as he even noted that he wasn't using Ironbreaker as intended, as a counter to increase the damage output against opponents to the max. He hadn't even been able to use the Demonsbane at this point.
And your claim that it was thanks to the Adamantium Kata that Ohma's durability was increased is completely debunked by the fact that Ohma himself noted that Wakatsuki's raw strength rendered Indestructible completely useless. That's proof of a durability increase. The fact that it happened while Ohma was already half dead and severely injured makes it even more impressive.
Plus, Ohma hadn't even really even started using his techniques 100% efficiently until after his revelation with Niko's ghost, as he even noted that he wasn't using Ironbreaker as intended, as a counter to increase the damage output against opponents to the max. He hadn't even been able to use the Demonsbane at this point.
And your claim that it was thanks to the Adamantium Kata that Ohma's durability was increased is completely debunked by the fact that Ohma himself noted that Wakatsuki's raw strength rendered Indestructible completely useless. That's proof of a durability increase. The fact that it happened while Ohma was already half dead and severely injured makes it even more impressive.
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- Thread starter
- #19
I'm not contesting that Ohma definitely grew stronger in terms of overall combat effectiveness, just that he didn't grow physically stronger simply as a result of recovering his memories. Every reason given for why he was weaker than he should be prior to recovering his memories amounted to him forgetting how to properly execute his techniques. The only mention of an increase in base physical strength in the entire manga was "Ghost Niko" mentioning how Ohma's body had naturally grown stronger as he grew up.
Afaik, literally all of his strikes involved the Adamantine Kata after the Raian fight. The rest of his attacks either used the Water Kata or the Redirection Kata, neither of which involve striking.
Afaik, literally all of his strikes involved the Adamantine Kata after the Raian fight. The rest of his attacks either used the Water Kata or the Redirection Kata, neither of which involve striking.
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Wasn't Ohma using 100% of Advance? It was noted in his last fight that the main difference post-twisty guy is that he learned too regulate the form's output to resonable levels.
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well, i would. i literally wanted to work on characters for more than 3 different verses already. thing is, i have zero, absolutly no idea on how to even make one.
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I am not good at making pages, truth be said. But mainly I've been busy with some family stuff. Have you got anyone to calc the stadium shaking at least, Sol? Or see if anyone's interested.
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Just check out the standard format for character profiles, make a sandbox attempt on your blog that the rest of us can comment on and is easy to edit and refine (like what I did for Ohma), then once everything's nice and proper, we can just add the page.
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I'll give it a shot after I am back home, would be good to be getting started on this profile making business.
Who would be someone good to start with?
Who would be someone good to start with?
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Before more stuff is added, feats should be calculated first.
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Wakatsuki would seem a good option for the ceiling of strength.
Who has feats of dealing with bullets? I know there's Nico, sorta Mutenba...
Who has feats of dealing with bullets? I know there's Nico, sorta Mutenba...
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Julius would be the best obviously, but Wakatsuki was the only one to have a straight up fight with him. Meanwhile, we can get a sort of scaling chain of people that can deal with Wakatsuki despite taking a ton of damage from his attacks, and people relative to them. Because, obviously, Murobochi could at least take a hit, Mutenba could get by with one arm being trashed after a good solid punch. Julius just has been above him and fodderizing the Ballerina dude, so not much help for scaling.
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If we do scale people to Wakatsuki it should be noted that they're far weaker than he is and can barely withstand a hit from an injured Wakatsuki.
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Of course, but it can at least settle a sort of backwards scaling in case any of the other hits come below the tremor him and Julius cause to the stadium. If the difference makes sense, sure, but if there's a massive disparity, Wakatsuki only wrecking an arm on Mutenba and not destroying Murobochi in one hit would make no sense.
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I just feel that backing scaling anyone from a 100% Julius or Wakatsuki is a bit iffy since their physical superiority is always harped on and they basically one shot their other combatants. I get doing it, but I do think it should be noted that even a single hit messed them up bad.
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Of course, but getting messed up is what these characters do in nearly every match and they just keep on going.
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Well I think we should note that they scale, but aren't necessarily equal
Muteba could survive some of Wakatsuki's strongest blows, even his Blast Core, but it completely broke his arm and left him in a dire situation. While it is unclear how the fought would've turned out had Muteba not decided to quit to avoid further injuries, its still clear that he couldn't match Wakatsuki in terms of strength. But the fact of the matter is, he could survive his punches without getting KO'd or blown to bits, so his durability should scale to Waka's duarbility to an extent, not fully. Same for Ohma vs Raian/Wakatsuki, Cosmo vs Adam/Akoya, etc
From their we can backscale based off of feats and how badly these characters could hurt each other
Muteba could survive some of Wakatsuki's strongest blows, even his Blast Core, but it completely broke his arm and left him in a dire situation. While it is unclear how the fought would've turned out had Muteba not decided to quit to avoid further injuries, its still clear that he couldn't match Wakatsuki in terms of strength. But the fact of the matter is, he could survive his punches without getting KO'd or blown to bits, so his durability should scale to Waka's duarbility to an extent, not fully. Same for Ohma vs Raian/Wakatsuki, Cosmo vs Adam/Akoya, etc
From their we can backscale based off of feats and how badly these characters could hurt each other
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People could scale from Saw who scales from Fisherman guy who was capable of harming a giant whale. Even if he used a weapon for it that thing is still huge and he'd still need to take some hits.
There's also an actual city block feat when Ohma used Demonsbane for the first time against Niko.
Also glad to see Kengan getting some love but damn cant talk much today.
There's also an actual city block feat when Ohma used Demonsbane for the first time against Niko.
Also glad to see Kengan getting some love but damn cant talk much today.
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Yeah, we should really get someone to calc Ohma's Demonsbane feat and Wakatsuki's and Julius' earthquake feat
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Yeah, the first Demonsbane at least. I think I can get a figure for how to scale everyone too like I did with the Gamer once I reread everything. There can be some surprise feats after all.
Also another golden feat. Almost all of the Round fighters are able to keep track (barely) of what Bando was doing, and his attacks seem to be faster than bullets. As in people can only hear the sound, AFTER, his attack had hit numerous times around the place. That's imo a calc that should matter.
Tracked it. 161
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/uTHg5NB_s...8JnVc-7ocMV70qJkw=s0?title=011_1549685294.png
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/2rVTD0lLg...MEFWGkWmEC1NBepPM=s0?title=003_1549676360.png
Additional notes - Considering that's young Ohma, he's definitely above whatever the calc yields. And the speed feat for Gensai (the one I calced for Mach 8 to Mach 16) is his younger self and wasn't finished training so they're likely above that again.
Also another golden feat. Almost all of the Round fighters are able to keep track (barely) of what Bando was doing, and his attacks seem to be faster than bullets. As in people can only hear the sound, AFTER, his attack had hit numerous times around the place. That's imo a calc that should matter.
Tracked it. 161
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/uTHg5NB_s...8JnVc-7ocMV70qJkw=s0?title=011_1549685294.png
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/2rVTD0lLg...MEFWGkWmEC1NBepPM=s0?title=003_1549676360.png
Additional notes - Considering that's young Ohma, he's definitely above whatever the calc yields. And the speed feat for Gensai (the one I calced for Mach 8 to Mach 16) is his younger self and wasn't finished training so they're likely above that again.
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Also interesting to note, Hatsumi before reaching his peak wouldn't even attempt to try and take Bando's attack head on
It's pretty hard to properly tier pre-peak Hatsumi, but it's still something worth noting
It's pretty hard to properly tier pre-peak Hatsumi, but it's still something worth noting
