Kengan Revision

[NikHelton]

My behavior isn't "incorrect", you are actively trying to make me look bad just for asserting my opinion that you are wrong, and I don't enjoy it.

Why should I be concerned? When I said above that you impose your opinion, you told me that you don't care.

It's a double standard, mate

 

[azontr]

You don't need to be concerned with it, I'm just telling you to stop. Whether or not you care has nothing to do with that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You are breaking the thread right now.

To say that a person is childish is not tantamount to calling him a child.

Then get some more tolerance for bullshit mate lol

When did I ever it was? I said it was childish to throw that insult, we can all be childish in one thread you know

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[Overlord1]

Spoiler: Debunk

Alright, here's my general breakdown of my opinions(and the opinions shared to me by other knowledgeable members). Keep in mind, to staff members reading, that my post will only consist of disagreements on the scaling presented in the OP, not of the stats themselves. Now, let's start.

The OP first proposes that we downscale low-tiers from the High 8-C calculation provided in the OP, due to a few reasons, being that the characters are all within the same realm physically between tiers, and that there are no large tiering differences between, say, low-tiers and god-tiers. I, and many others, disagree with this for many reasons, and I will be addressing arguments presented against my stance.

• To start off, one of the main points brought up is that there being a difference of thousands of times between characters, such as a difference between a 9-A and a High 8-C, is illogical, as there's no way that they logically could've made such a big difference in power simply through training. This is an, in my and several other opinions, a completely moot and irrelevant point. To expect the author to have to acknowledge such monumental gaps in power for them to be acknowledged as valid, when, there are several very valid cases of monumental differences in power, is unreasonable. For example; Gaolong is able to one-shot Kaneda with a SINGLE serious attack, as acknowledged by Kaneda himself, and Kaneda even eventually is instantly defeated. Should we downscale Kaneda from Gaolong? No! He is consistently displayed to be realms weaker, and no matter how "illogical" such a difference may seem on paper, our standards would not allow us to scale Kaneda, one of the weakest fighters physically, someone so pathetically weak and average, that Gaolong, one of the strongest fighters of the series, can casually make him bleed and bruise him heavily without even trying, to Gaolong himself. That just... makes no logical sense. Kaneda isn't even capable of HARMING Gaolong. There are other displays of this. Inaba initially overpowers and ragdolls Ohma not using Advance. But, Ohma uses Advance and instantly tears free from Inaba's hair when he couldn't previously. So, obviously, they shouldn't logically scale to the same value. And a point I see to debunk this is that Inaba "withstood" attacks from Ohma using Advance. And as such, his AP should scale relative to his dura, yes? But he didn't withstand anything. He took the hits, but he didn't withstand them. He literally lost consciousness and got one-tapped. It was even stated that Inaba couldn't even come close to Ohma. The dictionary definition of withstand is to "remain undamaged or unaffected by; resist", but Inaba didn't do that. Other instances of large differences of strength being displayed between character tiers include in the series include instances such as Kaneda being unable to even budge Ohma's arm despite actively trying to break it, Rei one-shotting Nezu, Kiozan being able to one-shot Chiba easily, etc. Kengan characters obviously rely on raw power heavily, and to say they do not is disingenuous.

• The OP considers a fighter's "condition" to be a key, determining factor in most Kengan fights. For example, Okubo Naoya, in this scan, is stated to be the strongest out of a group of characters, yet, at the same time it's stated he may not be able to defeat any one of them, based on his condition. This makes sense, yes, but let's look at what "condition" really means here. In Kengan, most of the time, if your condition is poor to the point someone is capable of defeating you when otherwise you'd be much stronger or even comparable, it's usually when you're in a state where you are critically injured to the point you literally cannot fight in top condition. To say that condition is such a big influence on fights all the time is objectively incorrect. Especially when, as I've displayed, strength is such a big factor in Kengan fights. One's condition RARELY comes into consideration in these fights, and when it does, it's when the character in question is in an extremely painful state.

The OP then proceeds to propose that we cross-scale between Asura and Omega, which is just... wrong. The scaling between characters between the two mediums is so inconsistent that it's just not possible, and any knowledgeable member will agree with me. To confirm, this is a disapproval of the SCALING used, not the stats themselves.

• A prime example of scaling massively changing between iterations lay in one character, The Superman, Lihito. In Asura, Lihito was the weakest of the weak. So weak, Ohma Tokita in his weakest iteration can one-shot him with zero effort. So weak, a casual Raian can effortlessly defeat him even without amping himself with Removal. Yet, later, in Omega, he's able to fight Mokichi and harm him, someone who can injure Raian on that level. Clearly, a high difference in strength between the character in each iteration, yes? This is once AGAIN displayed when Himuro, someone who can have his arm broken by Kaneda, a guy whose acknowledged to be the tournaments weakest fighter, was then able to contend with someone as strong as Haruo. Now, you can argue that, in this specific instance, Kaneda won through skill and ingenuity, and while he did, he was still able to damage Himuro, something he wouldn't be able to do if he was that much weaker than Himuro. See the difference here? The scaling between each character changes very much. And, I don't think the argument that because they didn't grow 1000 something times, the scaling doesn't vary, works. This is something that happens in fiction ALL THE TIME. Between keys and series, not every character becomes a million billion times stronger. That does not mean that characters will all scale in relativity to each other.

I'm done now.

I agree with Azontr. There are still other good comparisons to use here regarding Omega and Ashura. Still talking about Lihito, note that he managed to defeat Saw Paing, an incredibly strong and resilient character during the series. Lihito during Ashura would be completely obliterated against Saw Paing, just as it would be against Mokichi, and just as it would be against Raian. But yeah, he grew in technique and attributes, otherwise he wouldn't have tremendous durability (remember Kuroki effortlessly KO'd Lihito). The same case can be applied to all characters. So yes, I agree that they have evolved in brute strength as well as durability, intelligence and technique.

Note: I don't know how to put scan and my English is questionable.

 

[Antvasima]

What currently needs to be done here, and what are the conclusions so far?

 

[NikHelton]

I agree with Azontr. There are still other good comparisons to use here regarding Omega and Ashura. Still talking about Lihito, note that he managed to defeat Saw Paing, an incredibly strong and resilient character during the series. Lihito during Ashura would be completely obliterated against Saw Paing, just as it would be against Mokichi, and just as it would be against Raian. But yeah, he grew in technique and attributes, otherwise he wouldn't have tremendous durability (remember Kuroki effortlessly KO'd Lihito). The same case can be applied to all characters. So yes, I agree that they have evolved in brute strength as well as durability, intelligence and technique.

Note: I don't know how to put scan and my English is questionable.

victory was not so easy. Rihito was hit by the Devil's Spear, but was still able to continue fighting. Even Okubo said that Rihito made Kuroki try

 

[azontr]

What currently needs to be done here, and what are the conclusions so far?

There are no conclusions, because no staff have given an actual evaluation.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a good explanation post regarding everything that needs to be evaluated here, I can ask for help in that regard.

 

[azontr]

You already did.

 

[Antvasima]

You already did.

Right. Sorry about that.

 

[Antvasima]

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt

Are any of you willing to help evaluate these posts please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kengan-revision.148832/post-5488278

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kengan-revision.148832/post-5488596

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

victory was not so easy. Rihito was hit by the Devil's Spear, but was still able to continue fighting. Even Okubo said that Rihito made Kuroki try

???????

Kuroki explicitly stated that he could've killed Lihito several times moments after the fight began

Hanafusa explicitly confirmed Lihito stands no chance against Kuroki in terms of physical specs

Kuroki was playing around with Lihito for the entire fight. With Lihito implying that He was holding back his strength.

Kuroki beat Lihito with zero difficulty. Let's not pretend otherwise-

 

[azontr]

Actual moai moment

 

[azontr]

But yeah the argument that Lihito actually made Kuroki try in their fight is doggy doo doo butter.

This is DEADASS what happened as soon as the fight started cuh:

 

[NikHelton]

???????

Kuroki explicitly stated that he could've killed Lihito several times moments after the fight began

Hanafusa explicitly confirmed Lihito stands no chance against Kuroki in terms of physical specs

Kuroki was playing around with Lihito for the entire fight. With Lihito implying that He was holding back his strength.

Kuroki beat Lihito with zero difficulty. Let's not pretend otherwise-

There is no mention of physical characteristics here. Kuroki is insanely superior in technique and stomps.
However, this does not mean that he stomps it with physical force alone.

 

[azontr]

There is no mention of physical characteristics here. Kuroki is insanely superior in technique and stomps.
However, this does not mean that he stomps it with physical force alone.

...Specs relates to physical stats, which Hanafusa is referring to when stating Lihito has no chance of defeating Kuroki. What the hell are you on?

 

[DaReaperMan]

...Specs relates to physical stats, which Hanafusa is referring to when stating Lihito has no chance of defeating Kuroki. What the hell are you on?

Cocanium how about you?

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

There is no mention of physical characteristics here. Kuroki is insanely superior in technique and stomps.
However, this does not mean that he stomps it with physical force alone.

Kuroki confirming that he could have killed Lihito with several different attacks is already more then enough proof that they aren't comparable in stats-

He literally held back a SINGLE PUNCH that, by his own words, would've killed Lihito if it had landed. This isn't debatable.

 

[Overlord1]

A very good example of what Rihito Ashura is for Kuroki; Sawada landed his hardest attack on Julius, who ignored him and casually broke his leg.

victory was not so easy. Rihito was hit by the Devil's Spear, but was still able to continue fighting. Even Okubo said that Rihito made Kuroki try

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far among the knowledgeable members who have actually commented in this thread then?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So what are the conclusions here so far among the members who have actually commented in this thread then?

About 80% of everyone(Including every other knowledgeable) says this thread is dumpster except Crabwhale who's neutral, Darthsorox who apparently agrees with Nik, and Nik himself

 

[azontr]

So what are the conclusions here so far among the knowledgeable members who have actually commented in this thread then?

Literally every knowledgeable member barring Nik disagrees heavily with the scaling proposed in this thread, which includes myself, @The_man_with_the_Midas_touch, and @LordGinSama as of now.

 

[Lonkitt]

Forgive me since this isn't a verse I'm familiar with

From what I can understand from the counters to this revision is that the scaling doesn't make sense given there's a power difference between the characters that this thread scales in question, a difference which has been shown enough times to make itself clear

 

[azontr]

Forgive me since this isn't a verse I'm familiar with

From what I can understand from the counters to this revision is that the scaling doesn't make sense given there's a power difference between the characters that this thread scales in question, a difference which has been shown enough times to make itself clear

I'll assume you agree more so with my stance, then?

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, the scans speak pretty clearly of your argument. I disagree with the OP

 

[azontr]

Thank you for the evaluation. Glad we're finally getting input.

 

[Antvasima]

Forgive me since this isn't a verse I'm familiar with

From what I can understand from the counters to this revision is that the scaling doesn't make sense given there's a power difference between the characters that this thread scales in question, a difference which has been shown enough times to make itself clear

Thank you for helping out.

I suppose that this suggested revision has likely been rejected then.

Are there any connected edits in our wiki that need to be reverted?

 

[azontr]

Are there any connected edits in our wiki that need to be reverted?

No.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

Should we close this thread now then?

 

[azontr]

I'd prefer if we had maybe one more staff input before deciding whether or not this is rejected.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that seems rather unlikely to happen given the track record of this thread, but I suppose that we can wait for a while longer.

 

[azontr]

If we get no input after waiting, then I believe it's fine to close this thread.

But I also believe we should wait for the OP to say what he needs to say, and closing the thread simply after a single staff input isn't fair to the OP who may indeed have something he wants to say.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is a good point.

 

[Lonkitt]

Thank you for the evaluation. Glad we're finally getting input.

Happy I could help out

 

[NikHelton]

Can we scale characters like 1/52 of Wakatsuki's strength in that case?

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

No we can't.

Waka having 52x muscle density doesn't mean that low tiers would automatically scale 52x weaker. We'd just be throwing numbers around at that point.

There really is like...no issue with scaling the lower tiers to the calcs we ALREADY have for them.

 

[NikHelton]

Okay, what about scaling mid and high tiers?

 

[azontr]

We can determine mid and high tier scaling as we go with the new calculations you've provided.

 

[NikHelton]

new shake calculation is a complete 8-A calculation, but with a safe end.
Both calculations were accepted