Kengan Revision

[NikHelton]

Recently, 2 new calculations on Kengan were adopted.

One of them is a recalculation of the old calc with the vibration of the mountain. This time we used a suitable magnitude. It's still 8-B, but is now in the middle position.
The second is the calculation of the feat of Karo, who fought and defeated a huge sperm whale. This gave us the result High 8-C+.

Thus, the God tiers of the verse will scale up to 30.6 Tons of TNT (8-B).
High tiers will scale up to 8.84 tons of TNT (High 8-C+).
Mid tiers will scale up to Ohma, whose strength is 1/5 of Wakatsuki's strength, which gives us a value of 6.12 Tons of TNT (High 8-C+).
Such scaling makes much more sense and is much more consistent.

Please note that we are talking about attacking potential. Characters like Kuroki shouldn't scale higher than Wakatsuki because they hit organs.

Special techniques like Blast Core, Dragon Shot, Gott-Töter Steinbohrer, Demonsbane and Devil's Spear should scale higher than Wakatsuki kicks and have a value of 91.8 Tons of TNT (8-B+).

The base Raian should scale 1/3 of 30.6 tons and have a value of 10.2 Tons of TNT (High 8-C+).


The main issue is the scaling of low tiers.
Kaneda could withstand the attacks of a frivolous Gaolang, including a blow to the jaw. Inaba has been under the onslaught of Advance Ohma attacks for a long time. Needless to say, these are not tank fighters and their strength should not be higher than AP?

In the case of Kaneda, he also broke the face of Himuro, who should be many times taller than Kokuro, who could harm Ryuki and even stronger than Koga, who could damage Jose.
In general, the scaling of the lower levels is in complete chaos, but the best I can suggest is to scale them to the High 8-C baseline.

 

[azontr]

Goofy ass CRT with Goofy ass logic-

 

[LordGinSama]

Will comment sometime tomorrow. But for now I don't agree on the scaling for the God tiers or low tiers.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Gonna let someone else deal with the god tiers, but the low-tier scaling is goofy af here.

1. Kaneda shouldn’t downscale to Gaolang.

Gaolang was holding back his strength so much that, when he got serious, Kaneda stated he could one-shot him

Something Gaolang later casually does.

2. Why are you using Omega feats? We’ve never seen Kaneda fight Omega Himuro, it would be a pure assumption to assume they are still in any way comparable.

in general, we should handle Omega scaling in a separate thread. It’s so vastly different then Asura scaling that we should really tackle them separately.

 

[azontr]

^^^^^

It's Goofy af to cross scale Omega and Asura, the scaling becomes so warped in Omega in comparison to Asura that it's literally impossible to scale between the two manga.

The low-tier scaling is, also, complete ass.

 

[Deceived3596]

It's clear to me that the goon squad doesn't like NikHelton nor his opinions.....

 

[azontr]

It's clear to me that the goon squad doesn't like NikHelton nor his opinions.....

@LordGinSama your son is acting up.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama your son is acting up.

 

[NikHelton]

It's clear to me that the goon squad doesn't like NikHelton nor his opinions.....

How wonderful it is when people have something in common

 

[NikHelton]

Gonna let someone else deal with the god tiers, but the low-tier scaling is goofy af here.

1. Kaneda shouldn’t downscale to Gaolang.

Gaolang was holding back his strength so much that, when he got serious, Kaneda stated he could one-shot him

Something Gaolang later casually does.

2. Why are you using Omega feats? We’ve never seen Kaneda fight Omega Himuro, it would be a pure assumption to assume they are still in any way comparable.

in general, we should handle Omega scaling in a separate thread. It’s so vastly different then Asura scaling that we should really tackle them separately.

Why are you referring to this, if I directly indicated that he did not withstand serious blows. I didn't talk about the serious Gaolang.
This message is out of place.
Or do you want to say that Gaolang hit with 1/1000 of his strength?

Why can't I link to Omega. No need to pretend that this is a completely different job and the level of power in the verse has grown.
If you want to prove that Omega Himuro is on a different level than Asura Himuro, then prove it.
Otherwise, these are empty words.
Putting a difference of a hundred or a thousand times between his two keys is simply ridiculous, especially considering that we were not told about his huge increase in strength.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Why are you referring to this, if I directly indicated that he did not withstand serious blows. I didn't talk about the serious Gaolang.
This message is out of place.
Or do you want to say that Gaolang hit with 1/1000 of his strength?

Because the hits Kaneda took were so vastly weaker then Gaolang’s normal AP that it wouldn’t make any sense to downscale them. Whatever amount of strength Gaolang used was so MASSIVELY held back that it would be nonsensical to try and derive a value from it.

Why can't I link to Omega. No need to pretend that this is a completely different job and the level of power in the verse has grown.

I’m not pretending. That’s legitimately the case. So many characters have feats that are vastly above anything they did in Asura that it would be silly to conflate the two.

If you want to prove that Omega Himuro is on a different level than Asura Himuro, then prove it.
Otherwise, these are empty words.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that he didn’t improve, really. Himuro had two entire years to train and develop as a fighter between Asura and Omega, and displays feats far above anything he did in the original series.

 

[NikHelton]

Because the hits Kaneda took were so vastly weaker then Gaolang’s normal AP that it wouldn’t make any sense to downscale them. Whatever amount of strength Gaolang used was so MASSIVELY held back that it would be nonsensical to try and derive a value from it.

Don't talk nonsense. This is not Onepunchman. When people hold back they don't hit 100 times

I’m not pretending. That’s legitimately the case. So many characters have feats that are vastly above anything they did in Asura that it would be silly to conflate the two.

What are you speaking about?
Hammer of Burma has become weaker. The Razer Blade is unable to cut an extra using Unbreakable's poor technique.
The only cool feat is by Wakatsuki, who hasn't changed much since Asura except for becoming a punching bag and adapting slightly to Nico Style.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that he didn’t improve, really. Himuro had two entire years to train and develop as a fighter between Asura and Omega, and displays feats far above anything he did in the original series.

This is absurd. You just shift the responsibility for your words to me.

Himuro didn't show his strength in Asura. He fell into Kaneda's trap and lost his arm. His exposure as a fighter was minimal.

You cannot claim that he has become many times stronger if we do not have such statements.

stop speculating

 

[azontr]

Don't talk nonsense. This is not Onepunchman. When people hold back they don't hit 100 times

Actual horrendous argument. Nobody is saying Gaolong held back hundreds of times, we're saying he held back to an extent that downscaling is literally impossible. You're putting words in other people's mouths while not even understanding what you're talking about.

What are you speaking about?
Hammer of Burma has become weaker. The Razer Blade is unable to cut an extra using Unbreakable's poor technique.
The only cool feat is by Wakatsuki, who hasn't changed much since Asura except for becoming a punching bag and adapting slightly to Nico Style.

The very fact that these techniques have such varied scaling only serves to prove the point that Omega scaling cannot be compared to Asura scaling. You're arguing against your own point.

This is absurd. You just shift the responsibility for your words to me.

Himuro didn't show his strength in Asura. He fell into Kaneda's trap and lost his arm. His exposure as a fighter was minimal.

You cannot claim that he has become many times stronger if we do not have such statements.

stop speculating

This isn't an argument. The burden of proof still falls upon you.

 

[NikHelton]

Actual horrendous argument. Nobody is saying Gaolong held back hundreds of times, we're saying he held back to an extent that downscaling is literally impossible. You're putting words in other people's mouths while not even understanding what you're talking about.

The very fact that these techniques have such varied scaling only serves to prove the point that Omega scaling cannot be compared to Asura scaling. You're arguing against your own point.


This isn't an argument. The burden of proof still falls upon you.

Your entire comment is shifting responsibility and trying to reverse my words. The restrained Gaolang is still comparable to his serious version.
I'm not saying we're scaling Kaneda to the full power of Gaolang. I'm talking about the High 8-C baseline.
So Gaolang would be 8.84 Tons and Kaneda would be 2 tons of TNT. Or 8-C+.

This is what you say now. You said that the characters in Omega are superior to what they did in Asura. Now you have agreed to the opposite.
The artist began to draw on a smaller scale and the author decided to reduce the scale. As part of the plot, the level is still the same, as long as there are no statements.

And no. The responsibility for proving that Himuro has become stronger is still yours.

 

[azontr]

The restrained Gaolang is still comparable to his serious version.

No. A restrained Gaolong is objectively not at all comparable to himself at full power. This isn't even an argument of scaling, it's an argument of basic logical thinking and deduction. This applies to any character in any medium.

What you are proposing is blatantly not logical. You cannot downscale Kaneda from someone who he doesn't even remotely scale to to begin with. I don't understand how you do not get this.

This is what you say now. You said that the characters in Omega are superior to what they did in Asura. Now you have agreed to the opposite.
The artist began to draw on a smaller scale and the author decided to reduce the scale. As part of the plot, the level is still the same, as long as there are no statements.

I didn't say that, so, don't put words in my mouth. My argument is that the scaling between Omega and Asura varies greatly, so they cannot be logically and effectively compared without huge assumptions. This is a principle used in scaling any story or medium that has inconsistencies between iterations. What you're trying to propose blatantly goes against that.

And no. The responsibility for proving that Himuro has become stronger is still yours.

Objectively incorrect. This, again, is just basic logical deduction. To assume that Himuro, over a 2 year time skip, wouldn't have advanced his skills and strength through training makes no sense. You're insinuating that he stood around doing nothing, no training, nothing.

I don't understand how you fail to grasp this, again, it's legitimately basic logic even a child could work out.

 

[NikHelton]

No. A restrained Gaolong is objectively not at all comparable to himself at full power. This isn't even an argument of scaling, it's an argument of basic logical thinking and deduction. This applies to any character in any medium.

What you are proposing is blatantly not logical. You cannot downscale Kaneda from someone who he doesn't even remotely scale to to begin with. I don't understand how you do not get this.

Are you saying that the difference between an unrestrained ordinary person and a person who is holding back 5 times doesn't make sense? What are you speaking about? It wasn't some kind of spanking or slapping.

Even if we take the difference between punching a child and punching a pro boxer and use that to find the strength of a frivolous Gaolang, it would make more sense than he was held back hundreds of times.

I didn't say that, so, don't put words in my mouth. My argument is that the scaling between Omega and Asura varies greatly, so they cannot be logically and effectively compared without huge assumptions. This is a principle used in scaling any story or medium that has inconsistencies between iterations. What you're trying to propose blatantly goes against that.

These are two manga from the same author in the same world, where the difference in events is just 2 years. The power level of the verse has not changed since the time of Asura. The characters became more technical and mastered techniques. But it's not Dragon Ball. We literally have no reason why scaling doesn't work.
Or provide evidence that it does not work. That doesn't break the plot.

Objectively incorrect. This, again, is just basic logical deduction. To assume that Himuro, over a 2 year time skip, wouldn't have advanced his skills and strength through training makes no sense. You're insinuating that he stood around doing nothing, no training, nothing.

I don't understand how you fail to grasp this, again, it's legitimately basic logic even a child could work out.

An increase in strength by 1.5-2 times? Okay, this is possible in the real world.
Strength increase by 1000 times? This is sur. The author would indicate if the growth of forces would be so furious. But that did not happen.

There is no reason why I have to prove instead of you that the character has changed so much over the events of the timeskip.

 

[azontr]

Are you saying that the difference between an unrestrained ordinary person and a person who is holding back 5 times doesn't make sense? What are you speaking about? It wasn't some kind of spanking or slapping.

Even if we take the difference between punching a child and punching a pro boxer and use that to find the strength of a frivolous Gaolang, it would make more sense than he was held back hundreds of times.

This isn't a conversation of numerics so stop talking about them as if it has anything to do with the argument. It doesn't help your case, especially when to begin with, your argument is an incoherent mess.

Goalong casually one-shot Kaneda. @The_man_with_the_Midas_touch has provided the scans of such. This is an objective fact that Kaneda does not at all scale remotely to Gaolong. Your heavy inability to accept said fact is nobody's issue but yours.

These are two manga from the same author in the same world, where the difference in events is just 2 years. The power level of the verse has not changed since the time of Asura. The characters became more technical and mastered techniques. But it's not Dragon Ball. We literally have no reason why scaling doesn't work.
Or provide evidence that

Nobody is referring to strictly the power levels, we're focusing on who SCALES to the power levels. The key word being scaling. Learn about that word before you make your next argument, because you clearly do not know the definition. Either that, or you've failed to read Kengan Asura or Kengan Omega, which, I honestly would not doubt.

An increase in strength by 1.5-2 times? Okay, this is possible in the real world.
Strength increase by 1000 times? This is sur. The author would indicate if the growth of forces would be so furious. But that did not happen.

There is no reason why I have to prove instead of you that the character has changed so much over the events of the timeskip

You're once again speaking in numerics when that's not what we abide by. If you've been on this site for any decent amount of time you'd know that the author does not have to indicate specific number growths in power for them to exist. That's not how we, the site, or fiction, operates.

So far, your arguments have just been an incoherent mish mash of nonsense that indicates you clearly do not follow the Kenganverse to any relevant level.

 

[NikHelton]

Stop using a dismissive tone to discredit someone else's position. This is a very petty manipulation and it looks ridiculous.

Also stop saying that I am not familiar with Kengan, because based on your posts, it was you who got acquainted with the manga purely from pictures, without reading the text.
The verse never meant a thousandfold increase in strength.
All characters are capable of harming each other in one way or another.
In this case, downscale to lower levels is more than appropriate.

 

[azontr]

Concession accepted, thank you for not responding to any of my arguments.

 

[NikHelton]

I answered your arguments above. You just repeat the same thing, trying to grimace and discredit someone else's position, calling it nonsense.
Arguing with you is like arguing with a child.
It's much easier to call a content moderator to resolve this issue.

 

[azontr]

You objectively did not debunk or make any relevant debunks to either my or anyone else's arguments in this thread. Evidence has been provided against you, basic logical deduction and reasoning has been provided against you.

You are legitimately stone-walling.

 

[NikHelton]

You objectively did not debunk or make any relevant debunks to either my or anyone else's arguments in this thread. Evidence has been provided against you, basic logical deduction and reasoning has been provided against you.

You are legitimately stone-walling.

Hah, no. All this "evidence" is far-fetched. To call someone else's position "nonsense", to say that your position is "logical" does not mean that you were able to prove something.

I show that we do not have such a huge difference between the characters. All of them are able to harm each other and downgrade works.
You didn't read the manga well, because you don't understand that the difference between many fighters is not based on physical stats, but on technique and skill.
However, you stubbornly continue to bend your position, trying to seem like a winner.

 

[azontr]

You can call it far-fetched as much as you please but if you've provided no evidence that it is then calling me "petty" or saying I'm "trying to be a winner" doesn't qualify as a valid argument against my position. I'm not going to respond to baseless provocation with no valid argument to back it up.

I'll stop calling your position nonsense when it isn't nonsense.

 

[NikHelton]

You still haven't actually substantiated the thousandfold difference in the power levels of the characters and are trying to speculate.

All arguments above. If for some reason you have not read them, then scroll to the top of the page and read again

 

[azontr]

Again, you're focusing to much on numerics. The author doesn't have to specify astronomical increases in strength like that for scaling to be considered valid. I have already addressed this several times.

 

[NikHelton]

It's not about numbers, but about logic and storytelling. The characters are somehow able to harm each other, so the scaling works

 

[azontr]

Harming =/= scaling, as it depends on the level of harm. Kaneda could stagger Gaolong for a moment with one of his throws, but that does not mean Gaolong took any relevant damage that would justify Kaneda downscaling to any relevant extent.

 

[NikHelton]

Mangaka still calls Himuro one of the powerful Kengan fighters. Moreover, in Okubo's profile, he directly says that Okubo does not have a 100% chance of winning against any of the trio and that everything depends on strategy and condition. This already speaks about the comparability of the fighters and the fact that there is not a hundredfold gap in strength between them.

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Mangaka still calls Himuro one of the powerful Kengan fighters.

Everyone in the KAT was among the most powerful Kengan fighters, in-canon.

You have to remember, that even characters as weak as Komeda are stated to be above most fighters in the organization, losing only to the "Top fighters". Legit most of the organization is weak enough that Early series Lihito and Ohma can one-shot multiple fighters at once

I say all that to say that, Himuro being considered one of the most powerful Kengan fighters doesn't necessarily mean he scales to anyone. Just that he's above the fodder that comprises THE BULK of the organization.

Moreover, in Okubo's profile, he directly says that Okubo does not have a 100% chance of winning against any of the trio and that everything depends on strategy and condition.

Condition is the keyword here. Of course, they may be able to beat him if he was say....heavily weakened, or otherwise in such poor condition that he couldn't fight properly. That doesn't inherently mean they scale to him, or downscale, without feats to actually support this.

 

[NikHelton]

Condition is the keyword here. Of course, they may be able to beat him if he was say....heavily weakened, or otherwise in such poor condition that he couldn't fight properly. That doesn't inherently mean they scale to him, or downscale, without feats to actually support this.

It's incredibly hilarious how you try to speculate on "Condition" but ignore "strategy". Especially considering that just the same strategy and the ability to combine their skills are Okubo's main ability.

To what extent should a character in a semi-realistic work be in a state to be a thousand times weaker? Being on the verge of death from old age and riding a wheelchair like Hawking?

And where did you get the idea that we are talking about the state of Okubo when it comes to all four fighters

 

[Null]

Following

 

[DarthSorox]

Anyone can be defeated in a state in which he cannot fight. What you say is far-fetched. The author in the profile states that he is the strongest of the four, but nevertheless, the rest also have a chance. For some reason, with the word condition, you talk about the state of Okubo, but you forget that it was Himuro who was in that state in which he could not fight.

Anyway downscaling should work with low tiers

 

[NikHelton]

Anyone can be defeated in a state in which he cannot fight. What you say is far-fetched. The author in the profile states that he is the strongest of the four, but nevertheless, the rest also have a chance. For some reason, with the word condition, you talk about the state of Okubo, but you forget that it was Himuro who was in that state in which he could not fight.

Anyway downscaling should work with low tiers

Condition does not necessarily mean well-being. I think we can talk about warming up. As in the case of Hatsumi

 

[Antvasima]

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin

Would any of you be willing to help out here?

 

[NikHelton]

How will Edward scale? In the beginning, he defeated Removal Raian without difficulty being in the base, and then lost to him when he used Guihun

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

@NikHelton Why are changes being made to profiles even though this thread hasn't been accepted yet?

 

[azontr]

Why are changes being made to profiles even though this thread hasn't been accepted yet?

A question I ask as well.