Kefla and Vegeta Upgrade

[LordTracer]

Sigh...

This probably isn't going to end well, but I'm trying it anyways.

Okay, all the Gods of Destruction are treated here as at least somewhat comparable to Beerus and Champa, those two have a combined 2-C feat, and anyone twice as strong as one of them would be considered 2-C. So...

When unleashing her maximum power, SSJ2 Kefla could have one-shot and killed UIO2 Goku. UIO2 Goku is superior to UIO1 Goku, who traded blows with suppressed Jiren, and said Jiren was at least near the Gods of Destruction and terrified Beerus. People weaker than Jiren had also been getting props and even worry from the GoDs because of their power. Since all the GoDs are treated as at least somewhat near the level of Beerus and Champa, wouldn't Kefla being capable of one-shotting UIO2 Goku make her "Likely 2-C?"

SSBE Vegeta, after powering up, was able to overwhelm GoD Toppo pretty easily, essentially blitzing him and even punching through one of his Hakai balls as if they were nothing. Similar to how Gogeta currently is, this would make SSBE Vegeta "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C."

The odds of getting this through are low, but whatever.

 

[SuhSuhGuhSuhSuh]

MUI Goku isn't even 2-C

 

[LordTracer]

I'm aware, he would be if Kefla is upgraded.

 

[AwkguyDB]

''Following '' Dis gonna be good

 

[Sera_EX]

Before I go really deep into it, some things:

1. UIO and UIO 2 are not > GoD level, it's an incomplete state. The gods were worried that Goku would surpass them, not worried that he already did. MUI is > GoD level, proven by the gods standing up when Goku finally achieved a complete Ultra Instinct - a sign that they finally acknowledge him as having achieved a state even they could not fully master.

2. Kefla has nothing suggesting she's stronger than a GoD. Her powerscaling to UIO2 Goku does not suggest this due what I stated above in #1.

3. SSBE Vegeta > Toppo, a mere GoD candidate, does not mean he's more than twice as strong as a GoD, especially when he only surpassed Toppo after his rage boost.

4. Whis said Jiren while suppressed perhaps was stronger than a GoD due to him not being close to full power. This is called making an educated guess on Jiren's true power. Suppressed Jiren is not stronger than a GoD, but is clearly around GoD level.

 

[LordTracer]

1. I didn't say they were beyond GoD level. However, they should at the very least be nearing GoD tier, if not already within that tier.

2. One-shotting a GoD level opponent would absolutely suggest she's stronger than at least some GoDs.

3. Hence Vegeta only having a possibly... Toppo was directly called a God of Destruction by Belmod, and the fact that he's stronger than the likes of UIO1 Goku, he would be GoD tier and Vegeta taking him down with relative ease should put him in a similar boat to Gogeta and Broly's situation.

4. That was... my entire point with suppressed Jiren. He's GoD tier, UIO1 Goku was on par with him, UIO2 Goku was even stronger than UIO1 and then Kefla could one-shot UIO2 Goku, which means she would be one-shotting a GoD tier opponent.

 

[Read_this_post]

One thing that does confuse me is why suppressed jirens "strongest we have ever faced" statement makes him stronger than infinite zamasu (who they just fired one attack at before summoning zeno) but not beerus.

 

[LordTracer]

If I had to guess, it's because Beerus was suppressed when he was an enemy of the Z-Fighters.

 

[Ionliosite]

One thing that does confuse me is why suppressed jirens "strongest we have ever faced" statement makes him stronger than infinite zamasu (who they just fired one attack at before summoning zeno) but not beerus.

That's because Toriyama wanks his cat and wants to keep as high into the power scale as he can. Goku being stronger than Beerus only with MUI despite he fought him using SSJG shows Beerus' power has been inflated drastically since the first saga.

 

[Read_this_post]

But don't the Kai's know how powerful beerus is since they canonically know his power? Also I do find it easier to believe that they can sense jirens energy and compare to beeruses power than compare it to an abstract who's energy they likely can't even sense.

Also iirc whis when talking about jirens power and be rumour about a mortal stronger than he gods he did outright say the rumour is true. Unless it's just their own god of destruction who I am pretty sure would be a similar level to beerus since two gods of destruction clashing in general can destroy their two universes.

 

[LordTracer]

It would make logical sense for Shin to know Beerus' full power, but we don't know for sure if he does.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

How is that being stronger than a God means they are 2-C? The gap is unquantificable.

Isn't this another case of multipliers being thrown around a getting higher tiers just for it? Just like Undertale did a while ago.

 

[LordTracer]

Beerus and Champa together equals 2-C. It was determined that anyone twice as strong as them would then be 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out here Sera.

Do you have suggestions for how we should scale the characters based on the Beerus/Champa feat?

 

[LordTracer]

Yes? OwO

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The only Destroyer base Jiren is confirmed to surpass is Belmod.

 

[LordTracer]

By base do you mean Jiren from 109 - 110, or...? And the point is Jiren being GoD tier, whether he surpasses some of them or not isn't the important thing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

FP Jiren's energy alone was able to crush everyone in U11 including Belmod.

 

[Sera_EX]

Thank you for helping out here Sera.

Do you have suggestions for how we should scale the characters based on the Beerus/Champa feat?

It's hardly a feat and it's vague as heck. It's one statement from Vados with barely any context, especially since nothing actually happened. It very much can be considered an outlier or unusable for rating purposes. We're too liberal with our ratings and that's why they're not as reliable or maybe a better term would be "intellectually honest" as they should be. Dragon Ball and Marvel suffer from this badly.

Talking with others on Discord and most people, staff and non staff agree. They just refuse to respond to a DB revision due to the verse's aggressive history with CRTs. I can even provide screenshots of them agreeing with me if it's necessary.

 

[LordTracer]

How exactly is a feat from two characters' combined power an outlier, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[Sera_EX]

By "outlier" I'm referring to the actual meaning of the word and not "a high-ball". Especially when the result is assuming any character that's not an Angel or Zeno is superior to the combined power of two GoDs. Not even Jiren has evidence of this.

 

[LordTracer]

Except feats... for example, suppressed Jiren is GoD tier, he's even stronger with a hint of his true power, even stronger with his full power, and then UI Goku easily demolished and blitzed him. Is that somehow not enough to even consider that he might be twice as strong as a GoD? Or Gogeta utterly stomping Broly, who is stated to possibly be even superior to a GoD? Or, like I mentioned above, Vegeta blitzing and pretty easily taking down Toppo, who was explicitly stated to be a GoD and was previously overwhelming the initial SSBE Vegeta that was able to fight HoTP Jiren alongside Goku? Or Kefla going to one-shot and kill UIO2 Goku, who was already GoD tier with only UIO1? All of those make it seem at least possible that they could be twice as strong as a GoD.

 

[Pritti]

Suppressed Jiren is not GoD tier.

The conversation was:

Whis: He (Goku) is reaching his limit. Meanwhile Jiren is far from his full power.

Kaioshin: He's in a different league than anyone we've faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple.

Whis: Dare I even say, like a Hakaishin. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps...even surpassed it.

Whis was guesstimating Jiren's overall power. He wasn't at all talking about a suppressed Jiren. Context clues point at Whis guessing "he's not at full power yet, so he's probably GoD level or greater at full strength".

All of this refers to "Jiren is greater than or equal to a Hakaishin, he's just suppressed", rather than "Jiren isn't even at full power and he's already GoD tier".

I can even break down the context clues from the original Japanese if necessary.

 

[LordTracer]

Jiren's profile should be changed to reflect this then. Though, shouldn't suppressed Jiren be somewhat near GoD tier considering that Beerus was terrified of his energy and SSB Vegeta, someone far inferior to suppressed Jiren, was scaring Belmod with his energy from the Final Flash and Goku with the U7 Genkidama (again inferior to suppressed Jiren) got props from Arak, was considered dangerous by Champa (as the Spirit Bomb began to overload), and it had Belmod and even Marcarita worried.

 

[Pritti]

Beerus wasn't afraid of Jiren being stronger than him. He was afraid of Jiren being far strongest than Goku (his stronger player in the ToP). This is why when Whis told Beerus that Goku was reaching his limit but Jiren was far from full strength, Beerus started worrying again.

This is not to say when Jiren first released his energy that Beerus wasn't at all bothered, he was, but he was more so worried about Jiren far outclassing Goku more so than himself.

After all, Beerus wasn't a participant in the ToP. And if Jiren > Goku with non means of Goku countering, Beerus is done for along with U7.

 

[LordTracer]

I wasn't trying to imply suppressed Jiren is stronger than Beerus, I'm asking wouldn't he be somewhat near the GoD level, especially when those others inferior to him were garnering reactions and even worry from the GoDs about their power. Also pretty sure Vegeta was stronger than Goku before any UIO limit breaks, so U7 wouldn't have been instantly screwed without Goku but that doesn't matter

 

[Sera_EX]

Suppressed Jiren is probably GoD candidate level, since he was considered for the position before he turned it down. It's hard to say for sure.

 

[Pritti]

It's possible, due to how he bodied SSBKKx20 Goku and effortlessly pushed back a spirit bomb powered by 90% of Team Universe 7's Genki. Nothing concrete though.

 

[LordTracer]

Then my point with Kefla pretty much still stands. UIO1 Goku was equal to a nigh-GoD level Jiren, UIO2 Goku is even stronger and Kefla could have one-shot and killed him. She should be possibly/likely 2-C in some way.

Also mostly speculation on my part here, but I thought I'd mention it anyways. Both SSJ2 Kefla and HoTP Jiren could theoretically one-shot a beyond UIO1 level opponent (UIO2 for Kefla and Post-UIO2 SSB Goku for Jiren), could they possibly be considered on par or comparable?

And something I've realized now, full power Jiren is directly stated to be capable of crushing Belmod with his aura alone, you guys seem to agree that full power Jiren is at least GoD level, and UI Goku completely manhandled this Jiren.


He should be likely 2-C as well.

 

[LordWhis]

I've always considered Base Jiren and Kefla to be equals. It was implied that Goku would have beaten Jiren with the same technique he would have beaten Kefla if Jiren hadn't seen it before and learnt how to adapt to it.

Also, shouldn't 17 and Frieza scale to this too since they are certaintly stronger than UIO1 Goku and probably stronger than UIO2 Goku.

 

[LordTracer]

Hm, well that's interesting. I didn't even notice that last time I watched the scene. That would make Kefla comparable to full power Jiren though (unless that's what you meant by base Jiren).

 

[LordWhis]

Hm, well that's interesting. I didn't even notice that last time I watched the scene. That would make Kefla comparable to full power Jiren though (unless that's what you meant by base Jiren).

I meant Full power Jiren- he is base compared to Ultimate Burning Arnold Schwarzenegger Jiren.

 

[LordTracer]

Ah, okay.

 

[Tyranno223]

Full Power Jiren being equal to Kefla seems highly unlikely, when he showed no real concern about her power, and was only really interested when UIO2 showed up, which when coupled with the fact he only revealed his full power against UIO3 Goku implies Kefla's power was beneath his notice, as UIO3 is logically above UIO2, whose Kamehameha beat Kefla.

Also it wasn't necessarily implied Goku's Kamehameha would have beaten Jiren, it was only said that it was his best chance against Jiren at the time, and that also ignores the fact the Kane game has was performed by UIO3 Goku who, as mentioned, is way above UIO2.

Lastly, it should be remembered that Kefla only managed to gain enough power to beat UIO2 Goku by using everything she had left, which in dragon ball, always results in attacks way beyond the users' usually level (final atonement, special beam cannon, etc), so even if Kefla's attack was equal to Jiren, only her desperation attack would scale.

(P.S on a side note, are Goku SSB Kaiokenx20 and Evolution Vegeta considered as both UIO2 and UIO1 or just UIO1)

 

[LordWhis]

I'd argue Kefla's whole final form was desperation.

On the side note, I think they're in between uio1 and uio2.

 

[LordTracer]

Blue Kaioken x20 and the initial SSBE should be above UIO1 but weaker than UIO2, as the UIO limit breaking boosts never put Goku above the level of UIO he most recently had.

Jiren actually revealed his full power before UIO3 was on the field. He revealed his full power when he was the only one left and was cornered by Goku, Vegeta and 17. And Kefla should be far stronger than all three of them.

Either way, the point is that Kefla at her peak should in some way scale to 2-C due to being capable of one-shotting UIO2 Goku, who scales above UIO1 Goku, who was equal to the nigh-GoD level suppressed Jiren. How she scales to Jiren overall isn't really important.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera & Pritti

So do you think that we should downgrade the angels, the Grand Priest, and Gogeta to Low 2-C again?

I personally do not mind keeping them where they are though.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, no one is 2-C except Zeno. He's the only one with a 2-C feat and has multiple supporting statements. We can speculate all day about Beerus and Champa's feat but it was supported by a single statement and a vague one at that.

 

[Giygas3]

"We can speculate all day about Beerus and Champa's feat but it was supported by a single statement "

We have a lot of characters which tier is based off of a single statement, the only thing that matters if it seems like an outlier, but you would have to argue for that.

" single statement and a vague one at that. "

The power of two God's of destructions fighting would result in destroying two Universes. How's that vague at all? We have tons of characters which says they can destroy certain thing x, and we typically take it as the statement as is. This is almost like saying me saying, "The fight between two individuals will result in the destruction of the Universe" The only thing vague about it is over what time-period, but it would typically be rated at the very high end of 3-B unless the fight seems to indicate otherwise.

However, like the first one, we need to see if the portrayal of the fight might lead us to thinking otherwise, which there wasn't much to go off of. Now, I would downgrade the Angels and Grand Priest to Possibly 2-C considering they should be able to output way more energy then the combined power of two God's of destruction easily.