Kamijou's Imagine Breaker

[Akreious]

In reference to this thread.

In short, we need a defined yes-no to what Imagine Breaker can and cannot do.

Like right now, someone is claiming that Imagine Breaker quote

"Nah, IB "negation" works by returning everything to the natural untouched phase."

There's several problems with this. If IB works explicitly like this, then humans should immediately break into their base particles because that's what happens when a human is in their untouched state. Or clothes, their untouched state is not "normal" to the world yet clothes are fine when IB touches it.

And once we settle on what it ACTUALLY does, we need to determine what counts as "Supernatural" in relation to Imagine Breaker. In that same thread above, claims that Imagine Breaker would 1-shot Ainz since he's unnatural/supernatural to the world has been made several times even though Undead and Skeletons are very much a normal occurance in the world of Yggdrasill.

Another example would be, what would Imagine Breaker do to say, Dragon Ball's Ki attacks? Ki are completely natural forces of energy; not supernatural whatsoever. Ki resides within everything. Would IB still negate it?

I'll get to tagging Toaru Knowledgeables later.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Everything that's unnatural in the real world gets negged.

 

[Akreious]

Everything that's unnatural in the real world gets negged.

Define unnatural then.

Also complete and utter NLF, but besides the point.

What's unnatural?

Undead and Skeletons are COMPLETELY natural to the world in Yggdrasill. Does human bullets count as unnatural since humans created it and not nature? Mana and Magic is 100% natural in Yggdrasill too, does that count as "Unnatural"? Is a premature Supernova of the sun caused by aliens considered Unnatural since the sun didn't blow up on it's own and as such isn't 100% natural?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

By unnatural, I mean supernatural.

Fantasy elements while completely natural in-verse, doesn't apply to Touma's verse's common sense.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Everything that's unnatural in the real world gets negged.

That still doesn't help. Clothes are not natural, my hair cut is not natural. Will my hair grow rapidly in the presense of IB?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Refer to my earlier comment. If you think undeads are natural in the real world, you must live in Mexico or New Orleans.

 

[Akreious]

By unnatural, I mean supernatural.

Then define Supernatural ;P

"su┬Àper┬Ànat┬Àu┬Àral

/╦îso═×opər╦ênaCH(ə)rəl/

adjective

1. 1.

(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." By this dictionary definition, anything that abides by the laws of physics is Natural. Which works with Toaru's explanation of Magic and Esper powers as Espers basically have their own realities apparently, meaning they're not natural to the world, and magic is literally described as "Supernatural" within canon.

Ainz of Overlord, is 100% natural to the world. If the world is left untouched by supernaturals, undeads and skeletons would still exist.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Well to be fair, I was ninja'd. So anything unnatural to Touma's verse's "natural" is negged?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Ainz of Overlord is supernatural in To Aru. Verse equalisation doesn't cover this.

 

[Akreious]

Refer to my earlier comment. If you think undeads are natural in the real world, you must live in Mexico or New Orleans.

Again, NLF. Also Fiction isn't reality.

Via Verse Equalization, Ainz' existence is completely natural to the world.

Not to be THAT guy, but referring back to the wiki, there's this on Imagine Breaker's page.

"The Imagine Breaker, however, is unable to negate the Power of the World, its ley lines, the lifeforces and souls of human beings,[30] due to them being natural, despite being supernatural as well. According to Leivinia Birdway, this is because the Imagine Breaker normalizes things that are of abnormal values, specifically, it destroys things that have had their harmony taken. However, things such as the aforementioned examples, have always been uniform from the start despite being supernatural in nature. Touma's Imagine Breaker can only destroy things that had their harmony's taken from them, as such something that had been abnormal from the start, something that hasn't had their harmony taken, like the Power of the World will never not be negated by the Imagine Breaker.[31] Furthermore, Leivinia states that a cycle was probably set up from the start to be like that, and not how much the world can replenish power"

Souls can't be proven in real life, but Imagine Breaker still can't take it. Likewise, the Undead is natural to Yggdrasil. Always existed and always will be into the foreseeable future.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Considering Ainz is technically a human before a skeleton, wouldn't that already mark him for something already abnormal? Not gonna get started on that debate but the way I always thought it was something along the lines of Giorno's ability but diff.

Either way it's way too late and I can't comment but you can start off on the basis that Touma's ability can prevent some certain things that Othinius do. Who... has a remarkable profile page of what she can do. On both vsb and to aru.

 

[Akreious]

"Considering Ainz is technically a human before a skeleton, wouldn't that already mark him for something already abnormal? Not gonna get started on that debate but the way I always thought it was something along the lines of Giorno's ability but diff."

Nah, although it'd make sense to us, Ainz "always existed" in the New World. Remember that Yggdrasil is now the "Normal" world and ditched the regular human world he once lived within. Different laws, different "Normal", etc. etc. etc.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Verse equalisation doesn't make Ainz a natural occurance in To Aru. Period.

 

[ProfessorLord]

It's based off what would be considered supernatural in To Aru, not the other verses.

If an undead is considered highly supernatural in To Aru, then all undead physiology attacks/abilities would be nulled. Who cares what Overlord or other verses think--they're not the ones nulling the ability and thus their definition shouldn't matter.

Just go based off the standards and definitions of what is supernatural in To Aru, not what another whacky verse has to say. If I created a verse where magic blasts were natural, are you really telling me I now hard-counter Touma... just because I changed my definition?

 

[ProfessorLord]

Straight from SBA:

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen. For example, characters from other verses will be assumed to be capable of perceiving spiritual creatures such as Shinigamis from Bleach.

It's already stated, a supernatural energy that exists in one verse will be assumed to be equivalent to the other verse if similar enough. Aka, undeads are considered supernatural in Touma and therefore its considered supernatural in other verses because of VE.

 

[Tman766]

From what I heard Touma's IB is a power null that passively negs supernatural abilities and stuff and actively nulls other abilities

 

[ProfessorLord]

We can read the profile too.

 

[Malox1696]

IB is simply a backup file, it holds the original phase of the to aru universe then it does a check to everything it touches and deletes it if there are any differences with the back up, that's it, there are some grey area, but they are explained in the novel.

 

[Andrew48]

IB don't care what your verse considers Natural, it have its own definition of natural, and ANYTHING that does not correspond to its rigid definition of natural gets destroyed. IB doesn't care if your verses undead is natural to your verse, its not natural by its definition, and since it is created by a bunch of Universal reality warpers for the sole purpose of negating their power. It overrides what you other verse considers Natural.

Tldr- do we have walking skeletons in our verse? No, bye bye undead, IB will perma-end you, no if or buts, unless you are multiversal reality warper.

 

[SchroKatze]

The point is... The world of Yggdrasil is magic by itself. IB works by using the "world that can be explained by science without using supernatural things (even Espers, who are people with powers explained by science but that are "unnatural"). It uses the "pure" world as a standard.

 

[Andrew48]

The point is... The world of Yggdrasil is magic by itself. IB works by using the "world that can be explained by science without using supernatural things (even Espers, who are people with powers explained by science but that are "unnatural"). It uses the "pure" world as a standard.

It don't need a pure world to exist, IT IS THE PURE WORLD ('s back up drive), the original pure world is long gone and buried. Its function is for all extent and purpose an extension of Multiversal reality anchoring. It overrides world, hell in official crossover, Touma got kicked to multiple fantasy settings (Kamachi's multiverse crossover), no fantasy being can overcome his power. In short, it works everywhere, on everything, that is just how it is, Nothing overrides it (except World Rejector, but they are basically the same thing). So unless the other opponent is multiversal reality warper, anything they toss can't be categorized as IB's idea of normal.


TLDR - don't bother coming up with ways of bypassing IB's negation, its not something that have a limit, it is for all extent and purpose absolute for beings below and including universal reality warpers. The only way to overwhelm it is through Quantity not quality, quality wise so far there are no limits.

 

[SchroKatze]

The world, which in this context refers to the universe or reality itself, as it is normally perceived is not pure and untouched - various layers known as Phases exist over it which act like filters, affecting how it appears. The various religions which have arisen throughout human history have had the effect of creating layers over the world.

Beyond these Phases is the Pure World, which is described as a world of science (þºæÕ¡ªõ©ûþòî, Kagaku Sekai), untouched and unaffected by religion. The world of pure physical laws.


The "religion" part includes mythology and any form of magic. Liches and supernatural beings are considered as a part of it.

 

[Schnee_One]

Define unnatural then.

Also complete and utter NLF, but besides the point.

What's unnatural?

Undead and Skeletons are COMPLETELY natural to the world in Yggdrasill.

<Is capabable of nullifying magic or the unnatural on a Low 2C scale

<Nullifying Ainz is the NLF

Also, Skeletons and Undead are not natural by ToAru standards, To Aru refers to natural as manmade or having logic and sense to it, while magic just kinda comes out of nowhere with scoentists still finding where the magic source is.

And of course being a literal living skeleton makes no sense and would absolutely fall under unnatural.

 

[Zensum]

Didn't know this thread existed untill now, but I'm quoted in OP so I'll respond/ reiterate what other people have been saying. With simpler terms.


The Pure Phase is untouched and synonymous with our real world. IB's negation uses this phase as a reference point and essentially turns what it touches into this base phase. Regarding Ainz, there are no talking skeletons in this description therefore he gets negated like everything else. As far as IB is concerned supernatural is defined by any aspect of the world that doesn't exist in this pure phase.


What's natural in Yggdrasill, Overlord or whatever else is completely irrelevant

 

[SchroKatze]

It is possible that IB can negate things beyond Low 2-C, as Othinus was planning to use it to reverse what she did with the world and IB/IT negated Gungnir attack.

 

[Andytrenom]

Something that is supernatural for one verse will not suddenly become a natural occurence after verse equalization.

I think what IB works on, should be based on what the verse it originates from considers as supernatural.

 

[Andytrenom]

Btw,

"the Imagine Breaker normalizes things that are of abnormal values, specifically, it destroys things that have had their harmony taken. However, things such as the aforementioned examples, have always been uniform from the start despite being supernatural in nature. Touma's Imagine Breaker can only destroy things that had their harmony's taken from them, as such something that had been abnormal from the start, something that hasn't had their harmony taken, like the Power of the World will never not be negated by the Imagine Breaker.[31] "

If this is your argument for why IG won't work on Ainz, then you don't even need to bring verse equalization into this, this argument would apply regardless of whether Ainz is a supernatural occurrence in the To Aru verse or not.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So kamijou touches hajun and deletes him

Someone make the thread

 

[SchroKatze]

Sigh. Fallacy detected. IB negated up to High 1-C. Also, Hajun lolnopes sronger power nulls. Ainz is way inferior to what IB can negate and he is in the "not natural" part of To Aru.

 

[OpMasada]

Actually, we don't even know if skeletons are really natural or not, as the World where ainz's story takes place in was presumably messed up by a WCI, which is a foreign object from a foreign world applying foreign concepts to the natural world.

 

[Schnee_One]

I'd like to point out the OP has a rather long history of downplaying another character so he favorites don't lose, IE Shockwaves from a Low 6B won't do anything to Goku because they haven't shown to block bullets.... https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1524824?useskin=oasis

Saying that the site has an overreliamce on feats when Zamasu gets denied Applicable Mid Godly.....

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Gar going in right now.

 

[OpMasada]

Is Schnee gargoyle? Didn't realize that.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh heck Might as well do it.

Akerious also loves to rant against the site whenever upgrades are denied https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2104243?useskin=oasis

He enjoys making completely baseless assumptions about a character so to say the other wins.

He also doesn't check the other opponents profiles https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1961339?useskin=oasis

And of course he makes this thread to say that IB negating the supernatural on a Low 2C scale is NLF after a versus thread where he insults people for no reason other then they disagree https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2286195#244

TLDR Downplaying another character so his favorites can win is far from uncommon and thus it is advised to take what he says with a grain of salt

King. Would you do the honors?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Gladly.