[Toaru] Removing one of Coronzon's High 1-C AP justifications

[Churronzon]

Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword didn't overpower Imagine Breaker; IB just considered it a harmonious and natural phenomenon and thus didn't attempt to negate it.

“She is the same as me right now!! She is not an ongoing magical phenomenon! She is a
paranormal being that has already acquired the final result of a physical body! Just like
you can’t restore burned paper by touching the ashes, your Imagine Breaker cannot
defeat her!!”

[...]

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe
him in thy power.”

[...]

“Wait, human!! The world’s reference point is not enough to suppress this attack!!”

[...]

Magic God Othinus had once obliterated Kamijou Touma’s body with the brute force of
her crossbow.

A moment later, everyone witnessed that instant.

With a dull sound, that right hand and Kamijou Touma himself were utterly destroyed.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Prologue

“Great Demon
Coronzon has gained a physical vessel, so she cannot be defeated by the current
generation of Imagine Breaker which only works on the occult.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 3 Part 13

When she's soul-ripped, her spell doesn't get any weaker but is instead considered unnatural, so Imagine Breaker nullifies it just fine.

Kamijou Touma.

The Great Demon’s true enemy was this one boy who had rushed along the same floor as
the wheelhouse to arrive directly below here.

“.........................................................................................................You can’t possibly do it.”

Most likely, she already knew her fate. But Coronzon still moved her trembling lips below
the winter sun that looked almost white.

“You could never be a match for me!! This is the Aeon of Horus and a single Magick attack
can obliterate you. Know your place, human! No Great Demon shall succumb to that right
hand!!!!!!”

“That no longer applies.” That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also
view different locations. “You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your
body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion,
do you really think you can overwhelm that?”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 17

It was the ultimate magic that had once destroyed Kamijou Touma from head on.

[...]

They both wielded surefire attacks.

And they relied on those to clash head on once more.

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe
him in thy power.”

The torrent of power rushing toward Kamijou Touma was like a repeat of the past. He
could only trust in his fist and send it forward with all his might.

If this ended like last time, he would be torn apart so badly he would be painful to look at.

But things had changed.

Coronzon had been stripped of the vessel of flesh and blood she needed to function in the
surface world, so this would play out differently from before.

With a high-pitched noise, the entire threat was shattered.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 21

Agree: Just_a_Random_Butler, DontTalkDT, Damage3245, FantaRin_The_First, Excel616, Zensum, Enter_Bluey, LuffyRuffy46307
Disagree: Aminadab_Brulle, Aseka
Neutral:

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yep, I agree with this.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Makes sense.

Also, I just have a question about the page. Specifically, I'm curious about the statement that Magick: Flaming_Sword rivalled Gungnir. In what way was it implied that Magick was comparable to Gungnir? Genuinely curious.

 

[Churronzon]

Also, I just have a question about the page. Specifically, I'm curious about the statement that Magick: Flaming_Sword rivalled Gungnir. In what way was it implied that Magick was comparable to Gungnir? Genuinely curious.

It's just stated to rival the lance. Not much else to it.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

It's just stated to rival the lance. Not much else to it.

Oh, okay, fair enough.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with it

 

[Aseka]

Disagree, in the first quote, Coronzon stated that she is beyond all Aeons. And she had a physical body and because of that, her existence is a natural ones. But Magick: Flaming_Sword is still a supernatural phenomenon. Natural phenomenon in context referring to Coronzon's existence. Because of this, she isn't like other angels or demons, which is still in Aeon category, for example, Gabriel is Osiris, and Aiwass is Horus.

With his fist still held out, Kamijou Touma’s subjective sense of time vanished for a bit.

Finally.

He had finally done it.

“Isis, Osiris, and Horus. I exist beyond all Aeons, so did you really think that would be enough to break me?”

“Not good, human.”

Othinus whispered from his shoulder.

She was a complete Magic God, a human who had risen to the utter mastery of magic. And in exchange for losing all that power, she had been given the stabilized form of a palm-sized fairy.

That may have been why she understood.

This was a warning from the god who informed warriors of their death, so it carried quite a bit of danger.

“She is the same as me right now!! She is not an ongoing magical phenomenon! She is a paranormal being that has already acquired the final result of a physical body! Just like you can’t restore burned paper by touching the ashes, your Imagine Breaker cannot defeat her!!”

 

[Aseka]

And why Imagine Breaker can't negate Flaming_Sword despite it is supernatural phenomenon, you ask? It's beyond all Aeons. It's simple. Imagine Breaker can't defeat something beyond Aeons despite it is supernatural phenomenon.

 

[Churronzon]

And why Imagine Breaker can't negate Flaming_Sword despite it is supernatural phenomenon, you ask? It's beyond all Aeons. It's simple. Imagine Breaker can't defeat something beyond Aeons despite it is supernatural phenomenon.

That would still be verse-specific Aeon-based immunity and not an AP feat, so the justification would get removed regardless.

Imagine Breaker nullified both Gungnir and M: F_S once they're considered unnatural.

 

[Aseka]

That would still be verse-specific Aeon-based immunity and not an AP feat, so the justification would get removed regardless.

Imagine Breaker nullified both Gungnir and M: F_S once they're considered unnatural.

Lower Aeons can't affect higher Aeons. It means higher Aeons can resist what lower Aeons do. In this case, Flaming_Sword is supernatural things, but in higher category of that Imagine Breaker can negate. It's still rivaled Gungnir in terms of AP, but a different category of Aeons.

 

[Aseka]

It's stated by Othinus herself, that Imagine Breaker isn't enough to negate Flaming_Sword. Not because it's a natural phenomenon. It means Imagine Breaker can negate Flaming_Sword, if it's in the same category of Aeons.

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe
him in thy power.”

[...]

“Wait, human!! The world’s reference point is not enough to suppress this attack!!”

[...]

Magic God Othinus had once obliterated Kamijou Touma’s body with the brute force of
her crossbow.

A moment later, everyone witnessed that instant.

With a dull sound, that right hand and Kamijou Touma himself were utterly destroyed.

 

[Churronzon]

It's stated by Othinus herself, that Imagine Breaker isn't enough to negate Flaming_Sword. Not because it's a natural phenomenon. It means Imagine Breaker can negate Flaming_Sword, if it's in the same category of Aeons.

The reason given is because it's considered natural by the world's reference point. Same reason he doesn't negate the alterations made to Fairy Othinus. It supports Othinus' first statement.

“She is the same as me right now!! She is not an ongoing magical phenomenon! She is a
paranormal being that has already acquired the final result of a physical body! Just like
you can’t restore burned paper by touching the ashes, your Imagine Breaker cannot
defeat her!!”

Spoiler: One of IB's functions

“A Magic God can distort the world as she desires. She can distort it as she wishes, but it
cannot always be brought back to how it was before. Any childishly selfish wish such as
making all the water running from the water pipes turn into orange juice is perfectly
doable. But the more the world is distorted, the greater the danger of some kind of
harmful side effects presenting themselves. And even if she tries to turn the world back
to how it was, there is a danger of her no longer being able to tell exactly how the
original world was after distorting it. These changes we are talking about are like
changing the length of a meter or changing the weight of a gram.”

“So if that’s the fear, what is the hope?”

“A world like that would be a frightening thing, wouldn’t it? Even if you can alter
everything to your selfish whims, you would want some kind of insurance, wouldn’t
you? The simplest way to put it would be a backup or a reference point you could use to
return the world to normal. I suppose you could say your right hand is like the
International Prototype Kilogram. Even if the world is utterly distorted and you can no
longer recall how long a meter used to be or how heavy a gram used to be, your right
hand can negate all magic, so a reference point still exists. By measuring the length,
weight, and temperature of your right hand, someone who has distorted the world too
greatly can recall what the original world was like. It acts as a lifeline that allows the
world to be reverted to normal, no matter how far it has been distorted in any direction.”

That was the hope.

If there was some insurance, you could go nuts and not worry about holding back.

No restraint was needed, so you could simply act on all of your desires.

It was an extremely selfish hope that existed only from the point of view of the one
making the changes.

“There was a time when powers similar to that showed themselves here and there
throughout an era. Some took the form of weapons and made their way into the hands
of great heroes, some took the form of frescos and were rumored to heal the diseases of
any who touched them, and others took the form of caves and functioned as trials for
those who entered them. ...I do not know if the power in your hand is simply one more
of those powers or if those hopes combined together into another form as they were lost
and have naturally appeared here. I can make some guesses, but I have not tested any of
them. However, I can say one thing for sure. Your right hand functions as a reference
point for the world.”

“According to Ollerus, Imagine Breaker was created from the
selfish hopes of all magicians. He said it is a reference point and restoration point they
can use if they have twisted the world to the point that they don’t know how to fix it.”

Ollerus had said Imagine Breaker was the selfish dreams of all magicians.
If their twisting of the world produced a disadvantageous result, that reference point or
restoration point could return it to normal or erase what was done.

“According to Ollerus, Imagine Breaker is an accumulation of the hopes of all magicians.
He said it’s a reference point to return the world to normal after it is twisted by their
desires. I don’t know if that’s its true origin, but it can be used like that. You could say this
is the other card you could play. It represents the original world. Instead of adding on
another layer of paint, you can use this like a palette knife to slowly peel away the previous
layers.”

“I don’t know how to use this thing. Maybe not even the professional magicians who have
completely immersed themselves in this field of magic know. But you should be able to
do it. You stand at the peak of magic! You’ve risen to a position with the title of god! You
have to have some idea how to repair the world using this reference point!!”

Imagine Breaker was a reference point for the world, so it could restore everything.

“My right hand. I was only able to use it for fights, but you must know a better way to use
it. You can use it as the reference point for the world that Ollerus mentioned.”

She held the reference point of a right hand needed to repair the world. She possessed the
power and knowledge of a Magic God needed to use it effectively.

Because of this, she isn't like other angels or demons, which is still in Aeon category, for example, Gabriel is Osiris, and Aiwass is Horus.

Aeon of Horus superiority when Archangel Michael swings his sword

 

[Aseka]

The reason given is because it's considered natural by the world's reference point. Same reason he doesn't negate the alterations made to Fairy Othinus. It supports Othinus' first statement.

Othinus' statement in context referring to her and Coronzon's existence, not the spell of Flaming_Sword. I already refute that.

Aeon of Horus superiority when Archangel Michael swings his sword

That is Aiwass when lurking in Pure World, which didn't have avatar or vessel like Coronzon in Sephirah. So we don't know if he have full ability in the surface world like Coronzon with avatar or not. As we know, Coronzon without avatar is weak, that her Flaming_Sword can be negated by Imagine Breaker.

 

[Churronzon]

 

[Iiliminal]

bro isn’t gungnir high 1-C, flaming sword is on par with that

 

[Aseka]

bro isn’t gungnir high 1-C, flaming sword is on par with that

Well, the point of this thread is to remove one of H1-C justification regarding Flaming_Sword. And it's about it overpower Imagine Breaker as supernatural phenomenon.

 

[Ped2018]

Oh, okay, fair enough.

Do you mind tagging dt here?

 

[Zensum]

I agree with the OP, it doesn't overcome Imagine Breaker due to raw power, but I think the reason given is Magick: Flaming Sword is a Magick attack used by Coronzon who exist beyond Horus during the Aeon of Horus so Imagine Breaker can't suppress it and when she loses the physical vessel needed to function on the surface world she can no longer take advantage of those benefits, similarity to how full power can't be used without an avatar. The "harmonious and natural phenomenon" stuff was one of the reasons for why Imagine Breaker doesn't negate her avatar outright.

“You could never be a match for me!! This is the Aeon of Horus and a single Magick attack can obliterate you. Know your place, human! No Great Demon shall succumb to that right hand!!!!!!” “That no longer applies.” That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also view different locations. “You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion, do you really think you can overwhelm that?” “...”

If this ended like last time, he would be torn apart so badly he would be painful to look at. But things had changed. Coronzon had been stripped of the vessel of flesh and blood she needed to function in the surface world, so this would play out differently from before.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Do you mind tagging dt here?

@DontTalkDT

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think it was rather that IB was less effective due to the Flaming Sword being more natural, rather than not effective at all. But yeah, it should be removed as justification.

 

[Damage3245]

Seems fine to remove.

 

[Aseka]

I think it was rather that IB was less effective due to the Flaming Sword being more natural, rather than not effective at all. But yeah, it should be removed as justification.

Did you consider that Aeons take part on that reason why Coronzon able to destroy Imagine Breaker? Also the scan provided by OP clearly refers to Coronzon's existence.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Did you consider that Aeons take part on that reason why Coronzon able to destroy Imagine Breaker? Also the scan provided by OP clearly refers to Coronzon's existence.

I don't see anything actually saying that Aeons are related to the reason. Not that it would matter, as the point of it being a compatibility issue related to how "supernatural" the attack is, is still there anyway.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Erm, but, like, Imagine Breaker negated the Sword on the second try without any issue. So MFS in itself definitely is "normally" supernatural.
Also, if it goes through IB not by overpowering it, but by hax, then the Sword scales AP-wise to Touma's durability, considering he (barely) lived through the hit.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I also agree with the Aeons part. Because he could negate it a second time, and it's AP is on par with gungir. So this leaves hax wise, and as said above the right hand was rendered useless against that type of stuff until she lost her avatar. Then she got kinda...nuked as well (RIP). So, I agree with the removal of the justifications, but also agree with the Aeons arguement based on stuff posted before. How else would he have failed once, then succeeded the second time

Unless the sword itself was more natural BECAUSE of her vessel maybe?