Kamijou Touma VS Son Goku on Ultra Instinct — Seems like a stomp? EVERYTHING EQUALIZED!

[Mand21]

The girl punching antimagician!


The timespace busting man-child!

I don't know if this has ever been done before, guys, but I would like to try a kind of more interesting match: one where all physical attributes are equalized, and the dispute is all about combat experience, powers versus other powers, and intelligence. Does Goku seem like quite the overpowered character that would destroy Touma by blitzing? By overpowering his Imagine Breaker?

I decided to try to toy on that by making a versus thread — I hope this isn't forbidden — where everything except intelligence and which power each fighter has is equalized. Basically, they are "in character, with their powers... but equalized in terms of power".

So, which is stronger? Son Goku's capacity to subconsciously dodge (reminding he hasn't yet fully mastered the offensive use of US), or Kamijou Touma's precognition? Son Goku's combat intelligence and newly developing combat intelligence, or Kamijou Touma's Imagine Breaker?

Please tell me if there is anything wrong with making this thread. :3 I loved the idea.~


Argue and vote! Kamijou Touma versus Son Goku!

 

[Akreious]

Just saying this won't be added, but that doesn't stop us from discussing. To me, it depends on the level of precognition. Ultra Instinct > Most regular precognitions since making no effort to dodge and still dodging automatically>Seeing attacks and having to make he choice to dodge

 

[Mand21]

Yes, it seems like Goku's precognition is noticeably more advanced. I personally don't mind if this isn't added, but it's fu, and that matters a lot more.

I'd argue on Touma's favor that he is however capable of automatically using Imagine Breaker to nullify an attack, but I wonder how will that work for him or if he is capable of instantly exploring a breach on Goku's defenses to attack. Also, the fact his hits nullify powers may be a great bummer: who knows if won't Goku momentarily lose the Omen should he even block an attack instead of perfectly dodging it?

 

[Reppuzan]

"Everything Equalized" matches are banned since they undermine the point of the Tiering System.

I moved this to Fun and Games for your sake, but don't be surprised if a Mod or Admin comes by and closes this.

 

[Mand21]

Oh ;-; Sorry, I didn't know it was forbidden (reason why I asked).

Well, thanks for moving it. :3

 

[Akreious]

I don't recall UIO Goku blocking at all, at least very very rarely. He's MUUUUUCH more inclined to dodge attacks as seen with kefla. In speed equalized matches, UI is a beast since it lets the user maximize the speed they DO have so they'll still be faster than the opponent despite them having, numerically, the same speed. It also depends on the level of power kill, if Touma can nullify whole forms then maybe, but even then UI is a technique and NOT a power so the advantage I said about stands.

 

[Mand21]

Yes, there is a disadvantage when UI is a technique, however Omen is also a power-up, and temporarily taking away the speed-equalized power up of an enemy should be equivalent to slowing them down, in this case, to weakening all of Goku's attributes momentarily, which isn't a big thing when he may keep Ultra Instinct itself, but... it's a strategical mark.~

I'm reluctant about voting given I created the post, so I'm just acting as the Devil's Advocate. XD

 

[Akreious]

On the other hand, I'd also say Goku is more experienced as well as having the advantage of almost never letting the opponent actually hit him which would render the power nullification useless since it'd never hit. On the other hand, if they traded blows and Goku is knocked out of Transformation, that advantage probably couldn't be fully utilized since goku's punch that was thrown would still hurt Kamijou and probably send the both of the flying in opposite directions. IT is also a viable option to temporarily get away and regain UIO or set up traps like he did against Jiren. Which would harm Kamijou here since SSB Goku is now Low 2-C as well, assuming he can't go back to UIO.

 

[TheAbsoluteOne]

Goku is a master martial artist who's trained all his life. Touma is a good street fighter who literally throws nothings but punches. In terms of skill, he's no different from saitama. Complete and other stomp in goku's favor.

 

[Akreious]

There's the chance that Kamijou power nulls Goku via his attacks. And I'd say Kamijou>>>Saitama in terms of training and skill. But yeah, Goku has experience, "more advanced" precognition (AKA automatic dodging basically), more versatility (Land mines, destructo discs for environmental control, IT for a quick escape) and the ability to recover power should his UIO ability get temporarily nullified (either by regaining it by breaking his shell, which is to simply fight this guy or going SSB, which now is much more strategic in his style via the mines and environmental control via destroying specific parts of it).

 

[TheAbsoluteOne]

Goku doesn't even need Ultra Instinct to win. Did everybody forget that without imagine breaker, touma is just your average street fighting punk. In his universe, the only reason he punched out all those chicks is because they don't know how to fight. Everybody in that verse (except some characters) solely rely on magic, so take their magic away and they become cannonfodder. In this fight, your putting a street fighting highschooler vs a master martial artist. This fight is equivalent to putting IP man against some random punk of the street. Even if touma does nullify gokus ki or ultra instinct transformation, goku still absolutely stomps hard. One more thing, touma can only nullify something supernatural, magical, etc, so he can't nullify a punch or kick from goku. If everything wasn't equalized, a flick would literally knock toumas head off.

 

[Akreious]

wait, Imagine Breaker can't negate Goku's Ki. "it cannot negate natural forces from the supernatural such as a person's life force" Since everything's equalized, Goku literally just pulverizes Kamijou with sheer skill in direct combat and Kamijou can't negate UI. Kamijou's imagine breaker will literally never hit UIO Goku. Ultra Instinct (Auto-Dodge) > Kamijou's Precognition, and it's noted that if Kamijou takes note of this fact then his precognition will likely fail, and with how obvious Ultra Instinct's dodging is, he's most definitely going to take note that "Aha I have precognition!" and therefore, fail. Reinforcing my vote, Goku STILL wins!

 

[LazyHunter]

Okay, not to dispute this is an obvious spite match, but I have to adress some things.

"touma is just an average street fighting punk"

Touma would wreck most real life martial artists due to superior strength, durability and ridiculous endurance advantage. Toaru's expert martial artists like Tsuchimikado are not the same as RL martial artists, and Toaru's humans can be pretty strong and fast without any supernatural powers involved. Average on his verse is not the same as RL, just like an average DB martial artist is not the same as RL.

"Touma is a good street fighter who literally throws nothings but punches."

Wrong, as anyone who has read the novels knows.

"Everybody in that verse (except some characters) solely rely on magic, so take their magic away and they become cannonfodder"

Which is another lie, given several characters have plenty of fighting skill, smarts, tech, psychic powers, etc. Accelerator and Fiamma were terrible in terms of skill and battle experience due to their overwhelming power as noted by the novel.

"wait, Imagine Breaker can't negate Goku's Ki. "it cannot negate natural forces from the supernatural such as a person's life force'""

Touma negates magic, which is made of mana, which is processed life force. He would negate Ki just fine.

"Ultra Instinct (Auto-Dodge) > Kamijou's Precognition, and it's noted that if Kamijou takes note of this fact then his precognition will likely fail, and with how obvious Ultra Instinct's dodging is, he's most definitely going to take note that "Aha I have precognition!" and therefore, fail. Reinforcing my vote, Goku STILL wins!"

This makes zero sense and it's not how Touma's precog actualy works. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[TheAbsoluteOne]

Touma would wreck most real life martial artists due to superior strength, durability and ridiculous endurance advantage. Toaru's expert martial artists like Tsuchimikado are not the same as RL martial artists, and Toaru's humans can be pretty strong and fast without any supernatural powers involved. Average on his verse is not the same as RL, just like an average DB martial artist is not the same as RL.

of course he would, he's superhumanly strong. However, we aren't talking about how strong and fast he is. We are talking about his skills as a fighter. Your argument is totally irrelevant to what I said. Also, why are you bringing up Tsuchimikado when Im just talking about Touma.

Wrong, as anyone who has read the novels knows.

I've read the novel, and he's just a good street fight. It was never said that he learned any type of martial arts. He's a clever fighter and a quick thinker, able to find the weakness in his opponents magic, fighting styles, etc. However, in spite of all this, he has no actually training in any kind of martial arts or anything like that. Making him your regular street fighter who happens to be superhumanly strong, and have precognition. It's also stated in the novel that his fighting capability is resulted due to fighting with so many delinquents when he tried to help other people.

Which is another lie, given several characters have plenty of fighting skill, smarts, tech, psychic powers, etc. Accelerator and Fiamma were terrible in terms of skill and battle experience due to their overwhelming power as noted by the novel.

Didn't lie since I said (except some characters) also, why bring up smarts, tech, psychic powers, when I'm just taking about their fighting skills. This literally has nothing to do with what im talking about.

Touma negates magic, which is made of mana, which is processed life force. He would negate Ki just fine.

Um, then why can't he kill people just by touching them? Matter of fact, they explained in the anime that he can't negate something like someones life force, otherwise he could kill anybody with just with a simple handshake. He can only negate something thats strickly magical or supernatural, like gods blessing which is why he has some much bad luck. Ki is natural like peoples life force, so he should not be able to negate it,

Touma precognition lets him anticipate attacks that come his way. Gokus ultra instinct lets him dodge any attack while his brain can stil think of a strategy to defeat his opponent. Gokus ultra instinct is clearly surperior.

 

[Akreious]

"Touma negates magic, which is made of mana, which is processed life force. He would negate Ki just fine."

That's not how it works. If it's processed, then it isn't pure life force, which doesn't apply to Ki. It literally says it CANNOT negate life force, which is EXACTLY what Ki is. The burden of proof isn't on me, YOU have to prove when Imagine Breaker suddenly affects natural life energy. The Mana you speak of is clearly NOT the same as pure Ki as if it was, Imagine Breaker would suddenly be capable of negating someone's face and killing them that way.


"Touma would wreck most real life martial artists due to superior strength, durability and ridiculous endurance advantage. Toaru's expert martial artists like Tsuchimikado are not the same as RL martial artists, and Toaru's humans can be pretty strong and fast without any supernatural powers involved. Average on his verse is not the same as RL, just like an average DB martial artist is not the same as RL."

And.... How does that dispute what we said? Goku has surpassed basically EVERY martial artist on Earth in DB and even in early DB, he was able to impress Roshi; a person that is reknown as one of the greatest martial artists of all time FYI. From what you said, Kamijou has next to no feats that puts him anywhere near Goku's level in sheer experience.


"This makes zero sense and it's not how Touma's precog actualy works. Nothing else needs to be said." Then you'll have to make a CRT to get that part about Touma's precog out because that's basically exactly what it says.

 

[Joseph619]

Goku rekts Touma. Teleport behind Touma and break his limbs one by one. No need for Ki blast

 

[Mand21]

So, 3x0 for Goku so far? -q

Also, this wasn't supposed to be a Spite match. ;-;

 

[Malox1696]

"Touma negates magic, which is made of mana, which is processed life force. He would negate Ki just fine."
That's not how it works. If it's processed, then it isn't pure life force, which doesn't apply to Ki. It literally says it CANNOT negate life force, which is EXACTLY what Ki is. The burden of proof isn't on me, YOU have to prove when Imagine Breaker suddenly affects natural life energy. The Mana you speak of is clearly NOT the same as pure Ki as if it was, Imagine Breaker would suddenly be capable of negating someone's face and killing them that way.


"Touma would wreck most real life martial artists due to superior strength, durability and ridiculous endurance advantage. Toaru's expert martial artists like Tsuchimikado are not the same as RL martial artists, and Toaru's humans can be pretty strong and fast without any supernatural powers involved. Average on his verse is not the same as RL, just like an average DB martial artist is not the same as RL."

And.... How does that dispute what we said? Goku has surpassed basically EVERY martial artist on Earth in DB and even in early DB, he was able to impress Roshi; a person that is renown as one of the greatest martial artists of all time FYI. From what you said, Kamijou has next to no feats that puts him anywhere near Goku's level in sheer experience.


"This makes zero sense and it's not how Touma's precog actually works. Nothing else needs to be said." Then you'll have to make a CRT to get that part about Touma's precog out because that's basically exactly what it says.

IB is like a back up of the original world, it negates any sort of unnatural discrepancy (think of the world like a PC anyone can make changes, when the back up file overwrite everything any changes , even the ones that may seem natural, get deleted. ex:he negated the natural energy that pass trough the planet , it does not destroy planet but be being different from the original world use/role it still get negated), life force is not supposed to be used to push object, etc.. so when the life force is applied like that it should get negated

he said that goku still wins but is trying to remove the misconception of "he can only trow punches"

precog works by subconsciously taking in the changes (voluntary or involuntary) to the environment and opponent make and by instinct move accordingly so here it would be even more useless apart from negating/dodging ki attack if goku has no useless movement and control himself well(in the novel a cyborg cut off his facial muscle, so he could not intake the involuntary changes to use precog to full potential)

this pretty much a miss match cause in the novel any type of martial artist or soldier shit stomped him (tsuchimikado, American soldier,etc..)

 

[Ebonyx]

Migh as well ask here. If the opponent amped their speed with magic (Ki, Chakra etc.) can Touma's precog counter that?

 

[SchroKatze]

Just pointing out that IB can negate Ki.

Since Ki is natural ONLY while inside the body, the blasts aren't natural. Therefore, IB can just lolnope because it is changing the world in an unnatural way.

 

[Malox1696]

Migh as well ask here. If the opponent amped their speed with magic (Ki, Chakra etc.) can Touma's precog counter that?

at manageable speed ? sure , but he still can't dodge someone much faster than him (ex: saints)

 

[Akreious]

Actually no. Ki also exists outside of the body naturally. So no, the blast aren't unnatural.

 

[Joseph619]

Touma should be able to nullify ki blasts. Won't matter at all in this fight though.

 

[Akreious]

Yeah, serious UI Goku simply IT and punch to the back. That's literally all he needs to do. Even Base Goku can do it if he's serious enough

 

[Vietthai96]

If i'm remember IB only return the state of the world back the natural state that why he can negate Magic and Esper ability because they intervene the concept of the world and bending the natural to their will. Ki blast or a punch empowered by Ki is not change the world natural state at all

 

[ZERO7772]

Goku is master martial artist while touma is just good street fighter and UI > most precognition

Touma's precognition isn't that immersive to begin with

Ki Blas won't do anything because touma will nullify it away, but Goku doesn't need it really

Goku win 10\10