ToAru 8-B Downgrade

[DontTalkDT]

This thread is about this calc

Calculating Touma Kamijou Feats Part 4

vsbattles.fandom.com

which is the source of current 8-B ToAru stats, due to scaling to Kamijou Touma's durability.
I believe it should not be used and the characters hence be downgraded to their next best feats. (This calc might need to get evaluated if that happens...)

Now, let me lay out the reasons.

1. It's an Outlier.​

Not an argument that is often successful, but I should still bring it up. Especially since it also plays into the later points, in this case.

So, simply said Touma, and many of the characters scaling from him, are definitely not supposed to be even remotely this strong.

The opponent Kamijou Touma completely lost to was not a monster from the magic or science sides. It was a normal soldier who had gathered as much normal power as possible. This functions as an important brake in this series. If he can ever defeat someone like that without thinking, the series is as good as over.

(Afterward from NT 10)

Here we for example have a statement that an explicitly normal Soldier can defeat Touma (an U.S. soldier specifically. That country has neither sci-fi science nor magic) and that Touma defeating someone like that without a plan would not happen anytime soon. For reference, this is several volumes after the feat in the calc happened.

Aside from statements like that and the fact that characters like him can regularly be threatened with guns (Getting shot is literally, how Accelerator got his brain damage) there is also more explicit stuff. He, for example, gets easily injured from falls.

Kamijou’s body was fired diagonally up by its force until he was 200 meters up in the night sky. In the instant when the force pushing him up and gravity were in equilibrium, Kamijou Touma floated motionless in the air and looked at the sparse night view of Folkestone.

(What do I do...?)
The countdown for his fall began.

And Kamijou’s right hand did not have a convenient power that would allow him to land safely from a fall of 200 meters.

(What do I do!?)
The always present force of gravity bared its fangs towards Kamijou Touma.

(Volume 18)

Does 200m sound to impressive? Him falling from the second storey of a building unto soft grass and not getting injured was considered extraordinary luck, as he is not all that durable.

It hurt like hell.

A straining pain erupted all across Kamijou Touma’s body, but he did not have time to scream like normal.

“…!!”

Even though there had been a soft lawn below instead of hard asphalt, there was still something wrong with being able to move so soon after having his back slammed into the ground after being tossed from a second-story window. He hated to admit it, but this had saved him here.

“Falling from the second-story balcony without getting hurt wasn’t because of the changes to my body. I got lucky and escaped unscathed. Just like a baby that’s just fine after falling from high up.”

(NT 22R)

And since we scale this to many other characters, their anti-feats of course also factor into this.
Awaki for example. When she got her leg stuck in the floor she couldn't simply pull it out. Despite it being normal floor and stuff. Someone physically 8-B should be able to do that... instead she frees herself, by ripping the skin off her foot off as she pulls it out

Musujime instinctively knew that she could not win if she let this chance slip away. But when she tried to step forward, she realized she couldn’t move her right leg. It felt like a bunch of powerful instant glue had stuck it to the ground, but Musujime remembered that feeling well. The repulsive feeling was caused by her leg being stuck into the ground from about halfway down the calf and below. She had transported to the wrong spot. Pain. Fear. Shock. Those emotions she had once experienced exploded in the bottom of her stomach.
(I can overcome this…) Musujime gripped the metal stake tightly, bit her lip, and suppressed it all. There was a companion she had to protect behind her. In order to protect that life, Musujime Awaki would crush the past that was creeping out!! (I will overcome this!! I ’ ll over come everything related to this annoying scar!!) She stuck with it and moved her leg as if she was pulling it out of mud. As she did, she heard a tearing sound. Musujime Awaki did not avert her gaze. She moved forward. Like a bullet, Musujime moved to wards the Block assassin who was threatening her companion ’ s life while gripping the metal stake and ignoring her torn up leg. A noticeably thick noise rang out within the cell. All strength left Teshio ’ s body. She looked like she was leaning up against Musujime and barely moved her lips as she spoke in Musujime’s ear. “ …You went easy on me. ” The metal stake was in Musujime ’ s hand. However, just before impact, she had spun the stake around so the flat back end hit Teshio instead of the sharp tip. “ Unfortunately, ” Musujime responded in an uninterested manner, “ this is the kind of leadership I wanted. ”

Dragging her bloody leg along, Musujime Awaki slowly left the solitary- confinement cell. The other cells were locked. She couldn ’ t get her companions out of them. And even if she did try to forcibly break them out, the upper classes of Academy City might just make them disappear.

From a distance, Musujime Awaki stared at the juvenile hall with smoke rising from it. Something like a bandage was wrapped around her bloody leg. It was organic artificial skin made of corn fiber. It felt weird to her, but her body ’ s regenerative ability would eventually unite with it and shape it into “ human skin ” without leaving a scar.

(Volume 15)

That's just some examples from the top of my head. I feel like going through the novel I could find one or two dozen more... but I don't have time for that. So, the important point is: Neither Touma nor the people scaling are supposed to be remotely 8-B.

Now, if this doesn't convince you, I still want you to keep in mind that the author considers these people regular humans. That's important for the next stuff.

Edit: Let me also add that this upgraded like 50 characters that otherwise had no feats on this level. And I'm not even sure if those are all it should scale to.

2. The anime sucks​

This calc is based on the ToAru anime, which is non-canon.
For this feat to even be relevant, the calc is making use of the tertiary canon rules:

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material. When other source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that contradict the tertiary canon in the depiction of the feat, the others take precedence. And here as well, if the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat.

Now, the criteria to use this is that the feat is correctly depicted in the teritiary media i.e. the anime.

At the first glance, that seems to be the case. The novel says

The Level 0 charged in to where his fist could reach his opponent.
Accelerator raised one of his black wings.
The two attacks flew past each other, and the Level 0’s attack hit only an instant earlier.
Accelerator lost his balance from the impact. The black wing’s path got diverted slightly,
and missed the Level 0 by millimeters.
A shockwave erupted.
With the raging wind, not just the Level 0, even Accelerator got blown several dozens of
meters away. Both of them got up from the snow-covered ground, clenched their fists,
and charged right at each other.

(Volume 20)
Here is the corresponding anime scene.
And that seems mostly correct. Touma hits first, Accelerator misses, and an explosion throws them backwards.
The novel doesn't say the explosion is that big or that the shockwave is that strong, humans could actually survive what the novel describes, but the novel doesn't explicitly seem to contradict the depiction either.

Buuuuut... while this little part of the fight is not explicitly contradictory, everything around this one scene is. Like, the fight wasn't very well adapted at all.

For example, here we have Accelerator create a snow Tsunami with his wings, which Touma just tanks through.
In the novel scene Accelerator uses just two wings, it's earth not snow, and, more importantly, Touma does not simply tank that thing.

Accelerator made a simple move. The black wings behind him both swung downwards. Except, that this time his target wasn’t the Level 0 teen that’s running towards him, but towards the empty white land in front of him.
The sound of an explosion rang out. With the massive destructive power, large amounts of earth got swept up, and formed into a 15m high and 300m wide tsunami made of earth. The entire vista got covered by it, and it struck as if to swallow the tiny lad. He should be dead with this attack. Even if he was wearing military- use power armor, his body of flesh and blood would be crushed along with the synthetic materials of the body armor. Even so. Pacha!!* The Level 0 charged right into the soaring earth. His body got pummeled by massive amounts of rocks, but none were fatal attacks. “…” Accelerator was shocked at first, but soon figured out his tactics from the situation.
From previous reports about Academy City’s #3 , Railgun, who Accelerator had faced off against before, in the rumors associated with the Railgun, there was one saying that an unknown Level 0 existed that could match against the Railgun using only his right hand. This raised many questions. For example, even if a right hand that could n egate any ability exists, how could the one using it match his opponent’s timing? A railgun attack was over three times the speed of sound, and lightning strikes were even faster. Even with a method of defending himself, to be able to time it right was ex tremely difficult. Even missing the timing by only an instant would probably result in death. In that situation, how could the scenario "Every single attack is negated easily" happen? From the situation now, Accelerator could make a rough estimate. In other words ... Precognition . For example, when the Railgun used her ability, she would give off weak magnetic fields and electromagnetic waves that would make the metal items around her resonate. Because of the eventual large explosion, the Railgun herse lf probably wouldn’t notice these tiny vibrations like an earthquake’s precursor. ‘To see the invisible magnetic force, spread iron sand onto it to make it visible to the naked eye’, just like an elementary school experiment. So, because of these “An Invol untary Movements”, there would be hints to when the Railgun would attack. Of course, that was not all. That was not the only kind. Even though her ability was more common compared to Accelerator’s ability, she was still the #3 esper of Academy City, and shouldn’t be blocked that easily. There were probably other reasons as well. For example, the lightning strike. If it was only high voltage electricity flow, by extending his right hand the lightning would be attracted onto it, with the right hand acti ng like a lightning rod. Also, the iron- sand sword. Apart from the sword in her hand, the iron sand around her would also change shape due to the magnetic force. In other words, a ‘visible magnetic path’ would be formed that could be used to predict wher e the strike would end up. Depending on the situation, he could even negate the sword without coming in contact with it just by touching the iron sand around him. Sometimes the path to victory would change. Was it using the most powerful ability one poss essed, or the aftermath from that ability? According to different tactics used, the path to victory changed along with it. What was most important wasn’t whether there was a chance to victory, but to never rely on only one form, and look at the problem f rom many different viewpoints. Above all, look for the best method to resolve the current situation. Even against the same kind of espers, the same kind of tactics might not be suited to be used. Even if it was just lightning strikes, depending on how it w as used, different tactics may have to be taken. Because of this, battle tactics were always changing. By depending on the defense from the ability to negate any ability to avoid being killed instantly, to buy time and use it for maximum gain. By experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive. Just having brains wasn’t enough. Just having the power wasn’t enough. Only by combining the two it was possible to barely succe ed. In the situation where death was only a hair's- breadth away, having the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving probably helped a lot as well. The Level 0 probably didn’t realize it himself. How to use his ability in its fullest potential, usin g the aftermath as a basis, and then change tactics to fight according to the situation. He was probably just combining those with his reflex. As for the Railgun making everything made of metal vibrate around her, he probably didn’t take note of it explici tly but took it in using his peripheral vision, and processed it deep inside him. So, success was not guaranteed. On the other hand, if he actively tried to take note of these things it was more likely to fail. Just taking Accelerator’s attack and surviving was exceptional in terms of battle ability. Even if anyone else had this power in their right hand, how many could get the same results? Taking only the supernatural abilities into account, he definitely couldn’t be called ‘strong’. Even if taken everything into account he might still only be at a ‘weak’ level. But because that was so, that teenager knew the meaning of fighting with all his strength if he wanted to live. “ Uwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooohhh!!!!!!!!” The roar of the two overlapped. The Level 0 charged in to where his fist could reach his opponent.

That's a long quote, because it explains a lot (and I will bring it up later again), but for the takeaway is that Touma isn't supposed to simply tank hits. What the novel intends to happen here is that he predicts the attacks and moves through in a special way to survive the lethal hits. I.e. this isn't supposed to be a solid wall of matter which just gets blindly tanked.

Accelerator also, for example, should not be touching Touma, as that would be rather lethal (Accel can invert blood flow on contact).

Then, according to the novel Touma protects himself from the wings by using them as shield:

“(Just then…)” Lessar was going over what she had just witnessed once again in her mind. “(That guy… caught one of the black wings that split into more than a hundred branches and twisted it…?)” That boy’s right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn’t be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma’s special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely. Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a di sadvantage for him. But, Just now, that teenager used that ‘flaw’ to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn’t negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings.

In the anime he just dodges or tanks their explosions...
Oh, and in the novel those are a few more wings

The black wings swelled up even more than before. The pair of wings split into over a hundred , and attacked the Level 0 from all angles. At the same time where the sound of explosions and shockwaves ran rampant, the ground started to tremble dully.

What I'm getting at here is this: The reason we allow tertiary canon to be used was always the argument that using the animation as a guess would still be better than us just making a low-end guesstimation. However, the animators here have demonstrated not keeping to the source material at all, even in battle-relevant aspects. They made Touma just tank things he canonically shouldn't have in this battle. A such, I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule to consider this a faithful part of the adaptation, just because the contradiction in that one attack is not evident, when everything around the feat is wrong. And wrong in specifically such a way that makes it clear that the animators didn't care that Touma should not be that durable.

3. It's not consistent with what the scene tried to say​

Any changes based on tertiary canon will only be accepted if they are not contradicted by any instances of another canon, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).

This is one other rule regarding tertiary canon. In the first section, we have already seen that this depiction seems contradicted by the power-scale the novel establishes. Now I will show that the depiction is also "logically inconsistent" in regard to the entire message of that fight.

So, first, I will give that quote from earlier again:

Accelerator made a simple move. The black wings behind him both swung downwards. Except, that this time his target wasn’t the Level 0 teen that’s running towards him, but towards the empty white land in front of him.
The sound of an explosion rang out. With the massive destructive power, large amounts of earth got swept up, and formed into a 15m high and 300m wide tsunami made of earth. The entire vista got covered by it, and it struck as if to swallow the tiny lad. He should be dead with this attack. Even if he was wearing military- use power armor, his body of flesh and blood would be crushed along with the synthetic materials of the body armor. Even so. Pacha!!* The Level 0 charged right into the soaring earth. His body got pummeled by massive amounts of rocks, but none were fatal attacks. “…” Accelerator was shocked at first, but soon figured out his tactics from the situation.
From previous reports about Academy City’s #3 , Railgun, who Accelerator had faced off against before, in the rumors associated with the Railgun, there was one saying that an unknown Level 0 existed that could match against the Railgun using only his right hand. This raised many questions. For example, even if a right hand that could n egate any ability exists, how could the one using it match his opponent’s timing? A railgun attack was over three times the speed of sound, and lightning strikes were even faster. Even with a method of defending himself, to be able to time it right was ex tremely difficult. Even missing the timing by only an instant would probably result in death. In that situation, how could the scenario "Every single attack is negated easily" happen? From the situation now, Accelerator could make a rough estimate. In other words ... Precognition . For example, when the Railgun used her ability, she would give off weak magnetic fields and electromagnetic waves that would make the metal items around her resonate. Because of the eventual large explosion, the Railgun herse lf probably wouldn’t notice these tiny vibrations like an earthquake’s precursor. ‘To see the invisible magnetic force, spread iron sand onto it to make it visible to the naked eye’, just like an elementary school experiment. So, because of these “An Invol untary Movements”, there would be hints to when the Railgun would attack. Of course, that was not all. That was not the only kind. Even though her ability was more common compared to Accelerator’s ability, she was still the #3 esper of Academy City, and shouldn’t be blocked that easily. There were probably other reasons as well. For example, the lightning strike. If it was only high voltage electricity flow, by extending his right hand the lightning would be attracted onto it, with the right hand acti ng like a lightning rod. Also, the iron- sand sword. Apart from the sword in her hand, the iron sand around her would also change shape due to the magnetic force. In other words, a ‘visible magnetic path’ would be formed that could be used to predict wher e the strike would end up. Depending on the situation, he could even negate the sword without coming in contact with it just by touching the iron sand around him. Sometimes the path to victory would change. Was it using the most powerful ability one poss essed, or the aftermath from that ability? According to different tactics used, the path to victory changed along with it. What was most important wasn’t whether there was a chance to victory, but to never rely on only one form, and look at the problem f rom many different viewpoints. Above all, look for the best method to resolve the current situation. Even against the same kind of espers, the same kind of tactics might not be suited to be used. Even if it was just lightning strikes, depending on how it w as used, different tactics may have to be taken. Because of this, battle tactics were always changing. By depending on the defense from the ability to negate any ability to avoid being killed instantly, to buy time and use it for maximum gain. By experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive. Just having brains wasn’t enough. Just having the power wasn’t enough. Only by combining the two it was possible to barely succe ed. In the situation where death was only a hair's- breadth away, having the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving probably helped a lot as well. The Level 0 probably didn’t realize it himself. How to use his ability in its fullest potential, usin g the aftermath as a basis, and then change tactics to fight according to the situation. He was probably just combining those with his reflex. As for the Railgun making everything made of metal vibrate around her, he probably didn’t take note of it explici tly but took it in using his peripheral vision, and processed it deep inside him. So, success was not guaranteed. On the other hand, if he actively tried to take note of these things it was more likely to fail. Just taking Accelerator’s attack and surviving was exceptional in terms of battle ability. Even if anyone else had this power in their right hand, how many could get the same results? Taking only the supernatural abilities into account, he definitely couldn’t be called ‘strong’. Even if taken everything into account he might still only be at a ‘weak’ level. But because that was so, that teenager knew the meaning of fighting with all his strength if he wanted to live. “ Uwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooohhh!!!!!!!!” The roar of the two overlapped. The Level 0 charged in to where his fist could reach his opponent.

What this establishes is, that the Tsunami attack would have been lethal for Touma via durability, but he uses his pseudo-precog + skill to dodge through it.

This is not the only time in the fight this comes up. The entire fight is based on the premise: The attacks should be lethal to Touma, but he makes it through via sheer skill.

The pair of wings split into over a hundred , and attacked the Level 0 from all angles. At the same time where the sound of explosions and shockwaves ran rampant, the ground started to tremble dully. “(He should be dead now… it’s impossible for him not to be.)” Accelerator thought. It was imposs ible for that not to be the case. Even so... [Insert cool picture of Touma here]
“Why…” Accelerator let out a sound that was almost like a groan. In the end it turned into a mighty roar. “Why couldn’t a hero like you just die?! If you die, then everything can finally break apaaaaaaaaaaart!!!!!!!!!!!!” He heard the reply. Right in front of him, the teenager that clenched the blood- covered fist spoke: “…T hings like heroes are unnecessary. ”

Snow and earth flew up high into the air. But the Level 0 did not fall down. Facing the massive attack that looked like it would swallow him , he protected his vital points and advanced forward. Thump. Accelerator felt a chill down his spine. Until today, Accelerator thought the most frightening thing about Level 0s was their resourcefulness when facing high- leveled espers. Charging in head on and then taking advantage of the small thing the powerful esper missed to deal the decisive blow there. That was the most terrifying. Yes. With the resolve that refused to give up no matter what happened, the enemy that charged towards him right now was the most terrifying existence. The strongest esper of Academy City finally noticed this. And as proof: “(That last attack…)” Accelerator gulped. “(Even the weakest of those attacks hold destructive power that isn’t possibly something a human body can handle, right?!!)”

(Let me say that Accel is not wrong in his estimation of how durable Touma is. He knows many of the people Touma scales to and has injured Touma himself before. This is not their first fight)

“(Just then…)” Lessar was going over what she had just witnessed once again in her mind. “(That guy… caught one of the black wings that split into more than a hundred branches and twisted it…?)” That boy’s right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn’t be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma’s special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely. Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a di sadvantage for him. But, Just now, that teenager used that ‘flaw’ to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn’t negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings. Negation and disruption. Matching his opponent’s strength, and using his ability for the maximum benefit. Had this cruel war provided an opportunity to greatly enhance that teenager’s power? But, “(With only that… is it really possible to have gotten out of that situation…?)” Even if he could use his right hand to ‘hold’ onto the massive power, just that it was not enough to handle the problem. Even if Lessar had the same power, it would impossible for her to get out of that kind of situation no matter what. If that was the case, What exactly just happened? Was there really no logic to this? Or was it…

So, as you see the idea is that the attacks would kill him, but Touma makes it through just barely via skill.
As such there are two possibilities regarding the feat, as far as the novel's logic is concerned:

1. The shockwave in the novel should not have been as big and intense, as the anime depicted it. FYI, for calcs we use 20 PSI explosions, as that is the shockwave strength that would kill a regular human. However, one can have shockwaves of less than 20 PSI. Those a human can realistically survive. And wind always comes after the shockwave. So the novel description is something a human could survive, if the shockwave parameters were less than what the anime shows.
2. The shockwave is that large and Touma did something incredibly skillful to survive it. That might sound ridiculous, but other characters demonstrated nonsensical skill feats, like diverting an attack stronger than a point-blank sniper bullet using just a regular lab coat... basically, skill can go beyond what should be possible.

In any case, I highly question that Touma surviving an 8-B explosion by durability is consistent with the logic of the battle.
One can safely say that Touma can deal with attacks far above his weight class via skill, but that is neither regular durability nor should scale to other characters.

Summary​

TL;DR: Touma is supposed to be a regular human that would lose to a regular soldier. While fiction might stretch what being a regular human means, it's not intended for this to be taken as an 8-B tanking feat.
The anime depiction of this fight is overall not faithful to the original, so picking out this one feat, where one can't prove that it is not faithful, doesn't seem like it is in the spirit of the tertiary canon idea.
The novel makes it clear that the attacks of this fight in particular would usually be lethal to Touma, but that he survives them via immense skill. So this should be taken as a skill feat, not a durability feat, regardless of what the anime makes it look like.

 

[Dragonite007]

Agree with OP

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i really agree with that

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Finally, been waiting for this.

First off, please provide the context for how Touma got beaten by US soliders in NT10, DT.

Kamijou did not understand what had happened to him.

He found himself unable to breathe and his vision filled with white like an overexposed photograph. Heat quickly gathered above his neck and he could not move his head well, so he reached for his neck and finally found a dry sensation.

An arm was strangling him from behind.

By the time he determined that, he had already lost feeling in his limbs. Rather than crushing his windpipe and preventing him from breathing, the attacker was placing pressure on his carotid arteries to keep blood from his brain. Before he could even resist, his consciousness slipped into a world of darkness.

He got sneak attacked and strangled without him having a chance to fight back and was almost immediately knocked out due to it.

We also know for a fact that Touma can casually knock out Trident Soliders (which number around at 5) with one punch in NT3, which a lot of recruits are specifically noted to be former us soldiers

Secondly, you and I both know that piercing damage is a thing that is extremely hard to account for in fiction due to its nature and how most fictional series out there have characters out there that can be harmed or even killed by bullets due to authors not understanding or getting that their works houses characters that are vastly more superhuman than any human that has existed or will exist in the future.

Thirdly, provide context for the scene with Lessar, DT.

Observing from the angle of magic, the black wings of the mysterious attacker were like an embodiment of terror. But even more frightening was Kamijou Touma who could suppress even those wings.

“(Just then…)”

Lessar was going over what she had just witnessed once again in her mind.

“(That guy… caught one of the black wings that split into more than a hundred branches and twisted it…?)

That boy’s right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn’t be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma’s special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely.

Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a disadvantage for him.

But,

Just now, that teenager used that ‘flaw’ to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn’t negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings.

It is specifically noted that Touma used his deflection there with Accelerator's last attack, and only then... considering Lessar's exact thought noting the exact moment he did so. Even then, Touma was right smack dab in the middle of the explosion.

Just as Touma did when Accelerator first tried this trick, and when it happened again when they were trading attacks. Which is specifically noted to be the case by Accelerator himself for the first one, and by the narration itself.

Fourthly, I do want to point out another detail from that tsunami scene.

Accelerator made a simple move.
The black wings behind him both swung downwards.
Except this time his target wasn’t the Level 0 that was running towards him.
It was towards the empty white land in front of him.
The sound of an explosion rang out.
With the massive destructive power, large amounts of earth got swept up, and formed
into a fifteen meter high and three hundred meter wide tsunami made of earth. The
entire vista got covered by it, and it struck as if to swallow the tiny lad.
He should be dead with that attack.
Even if he was wearing military-use power armor, his body of flesh and blood would be
crushed along with the synthetic materials of the body armor.
Even so.
The Level 0 charged right into the soaring earth.
His body got pummeled by massive amounts of rocks, but none were fatal attacks.

It is specifically pointed out that he indeed got hit.

By depending on the defense from the ability to negate any ability to avoid being killed instantly, to buy time and use it for maximum gain. By experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive.
Just having brains wasn’t enough.
Just having the power wasn’t enough.
Only by combining the two it was possible to barely succeed.
In the situation where death was only a hair's-breadth away, having the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving probably helped a lot as well.
But, The Level 0 probably didn’t realize it himself.
How to use his ability in its fullest potential, using the aftermath as a basis, and then change tactics to fight according to the situation. He was probably just combining those with his reflex. As for the Railgun making everything made of metal vibrate around her, he probably didn’t take note of it explicitly but took it in using his peripheral vision, and processed it deep inside him. So, success was not guaranteed. On the other hand, if he actively tried to take note of these things it was more likely to fail.
But,
Just taking Accelerator’s attack and surviving was exceptional in terms of battle ability. Even if anyone else had this power in their right hand, how many could get the same results?

It is specifically pointed out that one of the methods that help Touma's precog is the aspect of "experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive"

Touma didn't dodge shit. Like an idiot, he flat out ran into Accelerator's tsunami so he can get closer to punch him.

Fifthly, I do want to point out that the Touma Accelerator fought was a Touma that was beat up by several of Mikoto's attacks and wasted precious time and stamina running to the place where 10,032 was fighting Accelerator - so Accel has no clue what an actual fit and non-battered by outside factors Touma can endure; only a battered and exhausted Touma.

I also want to point out that the two people Accelerator knows that scales to Touma, Tsuchimikado and Unabara, well... simply put, Accel has never actually seen them fight or even was around when they were fighting as Accelerator was always somewhere else.

Also, why even bring up that point about Awaki? Kamachi doesn't know the VBW system, the feat I used to get a 8B result didn't even in either novel or anime form; hell, I doubt VBW was even a concept back then as the event in where Awaki got her leg stuck in the floor and had to free herself by ripping the skin off her foot off as she pulls it out happened in a novel that was released at 2008.

TLDR:

• Touma has knocked out multiple soldiers, he only got defeated by that soldier that immediately knocked him out by placing pressure on his carotid arteries to keep blood from his brain
• What an author considers as a normal human doesn't explicitly matters since they can and have made characters perform superhuman feats without much thought placed into it.
• It is explicitly noted that he used skill to help increase his survivability, but he was still smack dab in the middle of a large shockwave - and this happened more than once in this battle.
• It is noted by Accel himself that Touma's precog also works by Touma needing to experience the impacts on his own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive
• Accelerator doesn't have any idea on what a fresh and non-injured Touma can endure and has never actually been in a scene in where he can judge the combat ability of the two people who scales to Touma

 

[DontTalkDT]

Finally, been waiting for this.

First off, please provide the context for how Touma got beaten by US soliders in NT10, DT.


He got sneak attacked and strangled without him having a chance to fight back and was almost immediately knocked out due to it.

Which a normal human could not do to someone with 8-B strength and durability.

And the statement doesn't refer to him being sneak attacked. What Kamachi was Touma in general not being able to take on a soldier with a plan. That he couldn't ever just defeat a soldier without a strategy. It was not about that set up in particular.

Also:

He frantically tried to get up, but a great force pressed down on his back and he heard a metallic noise. He could not see above from his position, but he assumed someone was stepping on his back and aiming a gun at his head.

The foot on a normal soldier on his back prevents that supposedly 8-B guy from getting up. Yes, there's also the gun, but before that they just pin him with a foot. Not exactly an 8-B feat.

And as said, I'm fairly sure if I look I can extend the list of anti-feats by huge amounts. E.g. In SP Touma can't break out of handcuffs. An 8-B should easily be able to do that.

We also know for a fact that Touma can casually knock out Trident Soliders (which number around at 5) with one punch in NT3, which a lot of recruits are specifically noted to be former us soldiers

Yes, by punching them in the face, the way a strong human could. Nobody is denying that he can fight humans at all.

Secondly, you and I both know that piercing damage is a thing that is extremely hard to account for in fiction due to its nature and how most fictional series out there have characters out there that can be harmed or even killed by bullets due to authors not understanding or getting that their works houses characters that are vastly more superhuman than any human that has existed or will exist in the future.

Since this is hardly about guns alone, this doesn't dismiss the claim. Especially since at some point even that becomes ridiculous. Like, if you harm a 6-A character with a gun that is either super gun or a contradiction. 8-B is also definitely stretching it what "piercing damage" is concerned. Heck, if you read "The Weakness of Beatrice" you know that Kamachi actually takes bullets into consideration and has characters with some durability against them hurt less (e.g. teh bullet doesn't go all the way through).

Thirdly, provide context for the scene with Lessar, DT.

It is specifically noted that Touma used his deflection there with Accelerator's last attack, and only then... considering Lessar's exact thought noting the exact moment he did so. Even then, Touma was right smack dab in the middle of the explosion.

Just as Touma did when Accelerator first tried this trick, and when it happened again when they were trading attacks. Which is specifically noted to be the case by Accelerator himself for the first one, and by the narration itself.

I'm not sure which context was added there. Yeah, Lessar described for that one feat how it survived, but no it does not say he only did it at that point.

Accelerator was certain those shockwaves should be lethal, but they weren't. It isn't clear how Touma survived them at that point. What the narration is doing is to set up a "mystery" of how Touma could survive those things and then later answer it by showing that he can survive it via deflection and creating safe zones and stuff. Yes, it doesn't go back and explain for every shockwave separately which exact way Touma survived it that time, but the entire theme of the fight is "Touma survives via skill". It would be narratively redundant for the point to be repeated for every attack. It instead relies on the users basic reasoning ability to conclude that the character that isn't supposed to have super durability, and that has just been explained to survive the lethal attacks via skill, has survived the rest of the supposedly lethal attacks via skill, too.

Again, Accelerator knows Touma's strength and durability from the first fight. To assume that he is wrong about those attacks being supposed to be lethal for Touma makes no sense, if we instead can conclude that Touma survived them via skill like the other attacks in the fight.

You're basically trying to interpret the statements the opposite of what they are meant to say. When the narration says "those attacks are lethal for humans", then it doesn't hint at Touma being beyond humans, but that Touma didn't just tank those attacks. Again, that much is clear by the whole fight being about "just his abilities aren't enough to survive, he only can do to skill".

Fourthly, I do want to point out another detail from that tsunami scene.

It is specifically pointed out that he indeed got hit.

It is specifically pointed out that one of the methods that help Touma's precog is the aspect of "experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive"

Touma didn't dodge shit. Like an idiot, he flat out ran into Accelerator's tsunami so he can get closer to punch him.

That's only half true and for what it matters mostly false. Yes, he got hit, but he didn't just tank it like you try to make it see,. The entire reason Accelerator had the realization at that point is that Touma couldn't have tanked that attack by just going straight at it. He sees him face the attack and concludes that Touma deals with it in a very specific skilled manner. He specifically figures out Touma's precog by seeing how he deals with that attack. If Touma just tanked them, then Accelerator wouldn't have figured it out from that, as Touma wouldn't have made use of it.
And using the impacts was just one of many ways mentioned for Touma to do it, and it wasn't mentioned more in regard to the situation than any other.

Ultimately, the narration just points out that none of the hits were lethal and that Touma used the precognition. In fact, he specifically survived due to his "battle ability", and specifically not because he was strong.

Just taking Accelerator’s attack and surviving was exceptional in terms of battle ability. Even if anyone else had this power in their right hand, how many could get the same results? Taking only the supernatural abilities into account, he definitely couldn’t be called ‘strong’. Even if taken everything into account he might still only be at a ‘weak’ level. But because that was so, that teenager knew the meaning of fighting with all his strength if he wanted to live.

With all of this, thinking he just blindly tanked the thing is ridiculous. Later in the fight we get pointed out how Touma might take some attacks, but specifically manages to protect his vitals from damage. Probably the same here.

The point is he a) didn't just tank it and b) didn't just ran in a straight line through it, as that would be just tanking it.

Fifthly, I do want to point out that the Touma Accelerator fought was a Touma that was beat up by several of Mikoto's attacks and wasted precious time and stamina running to the place where 10,032 was fighting Accelerator - so Accel has no clue what an actual fit and non-battered by outside factors Touma can endure; only a battered and exhausted Touma.

Durability doesn't change based on exhaustion, so this is a non-factor. Furthermore, he would conclude as much from Touma's supposedly 8-B punches hitting him.

I also want to point out that the two people Accelerator knows that scales to Touma, Tsuchimikado and Unabara, well... simply put, Accel has never actually seen them fight or even was around when they were fighting as Accelerator was always somewhere else.

Accelerator also himself scales to 8-B physicals. Are you suggesting Accelerator doesn't know how durable he himself is as well? Oh, and you are ignoring other people. Awaki is scaled to 8-B and Accelerator personally punched her out in a fashion that was not lethal to her (i.e. with a rather specific amount of power).



And I have serious doubts that Accelerator doesn't have the faintest idea of how durable and strong his teammates are. That he doesn't know magic is plausible, that he doesn't know their physical characteristics is unlikely.

There is just no way to get out of Accelerator knowing how durable half the verse's humans are.

Also, why even bring up that point about Awaki? Kamachi doesn't know the VBW system, the feat I used to get a 8B result didn't even in either novel or anime form; hell, I doubt VBW was even a concept back then as the event in where Awaki got her leg stuck in the floor and had to free herself by ripping the skin off her foot off as she pulls it out happened in a novel that was released at 2008.

Because the page is claiming they are comparable. If you claim her to scale to Touma (which you do, since you yourself added that rating to her) then you must believe there is reason for them to be considered equal in durability, which makes her relevant. Saying she is comparable, but not when it comes to anti-feats is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

This has nothing to do with Kamachi and all with our powerscaling reasoning.

TL;DR​

Touma has knocked out multiple soldiers, he only got defeated by that soldier that immediately knocked him out by placing pressure on his carotid arteries to keep blood from his brain

The statement is about Touma in general not defeating soldiers, not that one sneak attack. Touma being able to K.O. regular humans when getting a free hit doesn't contradict the idea that Touma can't defeat a soldier in a fair fight. And they are still physically stronger than him.

What an author considers as a normal human doesn't explicitly matters since they can and have made characters perform superhuman feats without much thought placed into it.

None on this scale, which is why 50 characters rely on this calc alone. The other quantifiable feats of regular humans are 9-C to 9-B at most. More in the territory of "might seem plausible". I.e it doesn't negate the outlier and not the fact that this is supposed to be a character with human durability surviving attacks that should explicitely not be survived by a human by the novel's own standard on what that means.

It is explicitly noted that he used skill to help increase his survivability, but he was still smack dab in the middle of a large shockwave - and this happened more than once in this battle.

It is never said that he just tanked any of those shockwaves and heavily indicated that he didn't, as it was explicitly noted that they should be lethal. Hence, it's more reasonable to assume he used skill to survive those as well, just as against the attacks of which we do have an explanation of how he did it.

It is noted by Accel himself that Touma's precog also works by Touma needing to experience the impacts on his own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive

It is not noted that this is what he did in this particular case, but was just one of many methods Accelerator figured out. And experiencing impacts isn't the same as tanking the attack in full. Touma is noted to get hit by parts of attacks in this fight, but making sure they avoid vital areas. Experiencing an impact scratch his arm wouldn't me he scales.

Accelerator doesn't have any idea on what a fresh and non-injured Touma can endure and has never actually been in a scene in where he can judge the combat ability of the two people who scales to Touma

Around 50 people are currently scaled to Touma, including Accelerator himself, so he definitely has the right idea of what is within the level of human durability. He thinks the attacks exceed that, so they are also beyond Touma. Furthermore, exhaustion doesn't lower durability, so Accel should know from their first fight regardless. And lastly, Accel tanks punches from Touma in this very fight, so Accel would know Touma's physical stats at this exact moment first-hand.


Edit: Also nothing that was brought up really counters the point of the second section, i.e. the anime adaptation of this is bad and shouldn't be used as tertiary canon.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh no, you are completenly right with the anime, and agree with removing 8-B. I just take issue with this.

Accelerator was certain those shockwaves should be lethal, but they weren't. It isn't clear how Touma survived them at that point. What the narration is doing is to set up a "mystery" of how Touma could survive those things and then later answer it by showing that he can survive it via deflection and creating safe zones and stuff. Yes, it doesn't go back and explain for every shockwave separately which exact way Touma survived it that time, but the entire theme of the fight is "Touma survives via skill". It would be narratively redundant for the point to be repeated for every attack. It instead relies on the users basic reasoning ability to conclude that the character that isn't supposed to have super durability, and that has just been explained to survive the lethal attacks via skill, has survived the rest of the supposedly lethal attacks via skill, too.

Again, Accelerator knows Touma's strength and durability from the first fight. To assume that he is wrong about those attacks being supposed to be lethal for Touma makes no sense, if we instead can conclude that Touma survived them via skill like the other attacks in the fight.

You're basically trying to interpret the statements the opposite of what they are meant to say. When the narration says "those attacks are lethal for humans", then it doesn't hint at Touma being beyond humans, but that Touma didn't just tank those attacks. Again, that much is clear by the whole fight being about "just his abilities aren't enough to survive, he only can do to skill".

Skill does not cut it.

A shock wave exploded out.
White snow and black dirt exploded up greater than 10 meters into the air obstructing Accelerator’s vision. He could tell huge cracks had appeared in various places on the ground. Distant seismographs had likely detected that shaking.
The boy who had been in the center of the blast could not be fine.
Even with the ability to negate powers with his right hand, he wouldn’t have been able to intercept every single attack. He had certainly been damaged.
There was no way the Level 0 boy could have saved himself.
And the shock waves created by even one of the dozens of stakes held enough destructive force to smash a human body to pieces. It had to be over.
With that victory, Accelerator had lost some form of hope.
And yet…
A figure shakily stood before Accelerator.
That Level 0 boy stood on the other side of the dust of white snow and black dirt.
Of course, he was not unscathed. The boy’s clothes were covered in dirt, red blood was leaking from his temple, and his center of gravity seemed to be tilted to the side.
Even so, the boy stood.
He stood on his two legs that would not fall.

[]

The roar of the two overlapped.
The Level 0 charged in to where his fist could reach his opponent.
Accelerator raised one of his black wings.
The two attacks flew past each other, and the Level 0’s attack hit only an instant earlier. Accelerator’s face got blown backwards, and he lost his balance. The black wing’s path got diverted slightly, and missed the Level 0 by millimeters.
A shockwave erupted.
With the raging wind, not just the Level 0, even Accelerator got blown several dozens of meters away. Both of them got up from the snow-covered ground, clenched their fists, and charged right at each other

[]

Skill does not magically reduced any stat-gap. Skill does not magically increase one's defenses. "just his abilities aren't enough to survive, he only can do to skill" isn't enough. You are stretching Lesser's observation and applying it to each and every one of Accelerators attacks that did land on Touma despite the deflection itself specifically attributed to the pair of wings split into over a hundred attack from Accelerator and using that as a basis for an idea that Touma's sheer skill was enough to survive Accelerator's attacks.

The text itself suggests Touma having the durability to endure Accelerator's attacks to some degree.

And no, "Experiencing an impact scratch his arm wouldn't me he scales" is wrong in this context by the mere fact Touma doesn't have anything to reduce KE and strength of Accelerator's attacks, thus, if he only had skill and didn't have the body to back it up, Touma's body would be turned into mush no matter what; hell, it is note specifically that his entire body was pummeled by Accel's tsunami of rocks attack, so skill couldn't be a factor 'sides protecting his head.

...

Although, perhaps, this more so to do with Touma actually just having a stat advantage over a good number of folks judging by his ability to knock out a lot of his opponents with only a few direct hits, endure multiple attacks from them, and seemingly able to endure attacks that can one-shot other judging by Itsuwa getting knocked out by Terra in a single direct hit and getting the same treatment from a casual Acqua.

But that is an entirely different can of worms...

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I disagree. First, as mentioned, skill can be pretty bullshit in ToAru. Kihara Yuiitsu can deflect Salome's attacks with a damn lab coat.

Then, even beyond Lesser's statement, we see Touma generally deal with such barrages of attacks by deflecting just enough to create a small safe spot to duck into. This isn't even a one-time occurrence, but something he does regularly. And it's not just Lesser's observation. Accelerator made the whole precog observation about Touma only surviving lethal stuff via skill.

Taking the explanations to how Touma can survive such attacks via skill, statements that the attacks should be lethal and not concluding that Touma used skill to survive those as well, is just not putting 2 and 2 together.

And I don't really see where the text itself suggests Touma having the durability to survive Accelerator's attacks, when it repeatedly mentions how those should be lethal. He can indirectly survive some of those. Like, as said, a shockwave is survivable, so aside from the one's we are told are lethal it is plausible for Touma to survive some. But that any of the stuff we know to be lethal to a regular human is to any extend tankable by Touma does not seem indicated.

And Touma does not need to reduce the KE. For one, not every pebble is necessary lethal and part of Touma's skill is probably not getting hit by those that would take him out specifically.
Another thing is that, he can choose where and how they hit.

Snow and earth flew up high into the air. But the Level 0 did not fall down. Facing the massive attack that looked like it would swallow him , he protected his vital points and advanced forward.

This is similar to the Tsunami and it notes Touma specifically protects his vital point. An attack that hits his arm, can take out the part of the arm it hits and Touma can survive it. He is not uninjured here, after all. He just has to avoid tanking it where it would kill and incapacitate him.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree, then.

You think skill alone is enough.

I think skill isn't enough without the body to back it up isn't enough.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Gah, press enter too quickly.

And Yuiitsu is an extreme example that doesn't apply to Touma and cannot be applied to him ever, considering the fact that she is vastly more experienced and skilled in fighting then him and much more smart due to her status as being a Kihara. Her bullshit skill doesn't matter here.

AoE explosions are also entirely different from the barrages formed from many projectiles fired at one time to the point that they cannot be compared.

This is similar to the Tsunami and it notes Touma specifically protects his vital point. An attack that hits his arm, can take out the part of the arm it hits and Touma can survive it. He is not uninjured here, after all. He just has to avoid tanking it where it would kill and incapacitate him.

And wouldn't this just mean Touma just downscales to Accelerator's attack, no? We know that while Accel did give him a beating, but it did not leave him in any condition that would hinder him or leave him with any broken bones or any nasty injuries that would hinder him with his battle with Fiamma. He took his attacks, it harmed him and gave him injuries, but he was still more than capable of moving and fighting even after the battle with Accel was done.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP looks good.

 

[Doggo]

I personally think 9B makes more sense from a scaling and narrative perspective.


Also since the anime just sucks, doesn't this make the 8b invalid? If so, no one is gonna scale to it unless a LN version of the calc is made

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, in any case, it appears that everyone agrees with the removal of 8-B for some reason or another. In that case, I will soon make a follow-up thread in which I discuss which specific rating everyone should end up at.