Kakine Teitoku - Toaru Small Revision

[LazyHunter]

I recently was made aware of a little issue with Kakine's page. His first key lists "attacks can cause damage at the macro-quantum level and thus bypass conventional durability" for his AP. He doesn't have this in Base/OT form, as one can see by taking a look at the Powers and Abilities section he only showed that kind of trick after learning how to use his Dark Matter better and reviving in NT5. There's also the simple fact his second key doesn't list this despite just being a stronger version of his Base form. Unless someone can come up with quotes from the novels to justify it, this should be removed.

 

[Malox1696]

As I said on the other thread, it all depends if we count the time when he was in the fridge (before he grated himself a new body) base or revival Btw how about removing the awakened form too ? We have no information on it and was never truly used

 

[LazyHunter]

I would consider it as revival, given that it was after he learned more about his ability due to AC using Eq. Dark Matter stuff. His OT self shouldn't have it, and the base key is his OT self.

I'm all for removing it (I think I have already mentioned it before in another CRT). I never saw the point of having it, given it's completely featless. Like, seriously, the only thing Kakine did in that form to getting stomped by Accelerator. No statements, no new abilities or feats, nothing besides Kakine going in a mental ego trip about how he's now the strongest person in the world and can casually solo everyone else (only to be immediately proven wrong).

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with the removal of the dura negation of that key.

 

[Malox1696]

@lazyhunter

I don't think we should use time (ot-nt) to differentiate key, we should use transformation-power up to differentiate key (like for all the other character), I would consider revival kakine when he actually leaves his body behind (during nt 5) and when he was a brain in the jar he was still kakine base but only had half of the body, for example technies used on nt by accell are still counted on his post head shoot

and in the first place they only made kakaine produce DM then they processed it, he only learned to produce organic cell there, thank to Byouri abuse of DM during nt 4

 

[LazyHunter]

The base key is clearly made to represent OT Kakine. There's no reason for a key for "NT Kakine but before he made his own body" to exist or for him to ever be used because he's just a pile of organs in a fridge that basically can't do anything by himself.

The key for Accelerator post headshot applies to all his appearances in base after the fact because he doesn't really grow in power or learn anything but minor tricks/variations in attacks, so unless you want to use Accelerator from the initial chapters of the Accelerator manga's first arc (when he hasn't figured out the earth's rotation trick) there's not much difference besides battery power.

Byouri was using Eq. Dark Matter implants, I was referring to her.

 

[Malox1696]

Yea but fridge kakine falls under Base kakine as it is just half OT kakine and he used matter absorption in that state,before he created a new body

 

[LazyHunter]

As I said, the base Kakine key is made to represent OT Kakine. It doesn't have that ability. Kakine used that ability just before making his new body. That is why it's in the post-revival key.

If you really have an issue with the name "Base" being used we can change it to Pre-mutilation or whatever name you want, but that key doesn't have that ability.

 

[Malox1696]

I thought key were supposed to represent a state of a character not a time in the story ?

 

[LazyHunter]

They can also be used to represent specific points in the story if a character significantly grows in strength as the story develops, like Toriko or Dragon Ball Super Goku having keys for different arcs.

This is rarely the case in Toaru and other Kamachi stories since Kamachi characters do not get stronger via training.

 

[Malox1696]

If so why create a key for a point in time instead of making it for transformation/power up if literally less than a month passed since he was awake in the fridge ?

 

[LazyHunter]

Because Kakine in OT clearly has different capabilities from Kakine in NT? He develops his powers more and starts fighting in a different way. Having a key for Kakine in OT and another for NT, where he has a DM body, Regenerationn and all that stuff is the most logical choice IMO.

 

[Malox1696]

I would say making a kakine human and DM kakine key like all other characters makes more sense as the only ability gained by DM kakaine is organic cell creation as stated in the novel

 

[LazyHunter]

Okay, the only difference I see between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that you want to add the absorbtion ability to human Kakine/OT Kakine/Base Kakine/whatever. Which I think is nonsense because it's not an ability he shows when he had a human body. At this point you are arguing that because he did the absorption trick slightly before creating his DM body it belongs in the key prior to his DM body, despite that key only referring to Kakine when he had a human body, before he became a pile of organs in a freezer pumping out DM, aka OT Kakine.

 

[Malox1696]

It's more about story consistency and continuity, he could not have swallowed up the laboratory if he did not have the ability before he created himself a body, if u say that he does not have the ability, but then he uses it, even in a crippled state (he is still human), that would be a contradiction

I'm ok to removing it if u change the key to OT kakine but if so should it be done to other character too ? ex: accel 15 minute =/= 30 min, NT accel, mikoto before and after dream card ark, touma before and after fiamma fight, etc

 

[LazyHunter]

The Kakine in the laboratory was a pile of organs that developed his power further due to AC's shenanigans. He's clearly not the same as OT Kakine with his human body, but there's literally no point to have that state represented under any key because Kakine at that moment can already make himself a new body, which he does very shortly afterward. It clearly falls under the post-revival key. I don't really understand why you are so bothered by this.

There's really no point to making those changes to Accelerator (the only notable one is the battery life and the choker version can be specified in the match conditions), given that matches restrain a character's keys so the only notable change between OT Accelerator and NT Accelerator, the white wings, don't affect a fight that uses base Accelerator.

There's no difference between Mikoto pre-Dream Ranker and post-Dream Ranker. She didn't grow in strength or discovered a new application of her power. The iron sand giant is something she could always do. The same goes for Touma.

 

[Malox1696]

The Fact is that he especially said he only was used to produce DM to create weapon and learned to produce human cells thanks to byuori over use of DM we don't know if absorption is a new technique

Same for mikoto we don't know if she came up with it on the stop or not

For touma I mean the ability to actually use the impossibility for IB to negate all the power to instead manipulate it

 

[LazyHunter]

At this point we're going in circles. I'm against the idea of giving absorption to OT Kakine, as IMO it doesn't make any sense for the reasons I've already given above. My vote, as should be obvious since I made this CRT, continues to be for the removal of the line about negating durability on his AP for the Base/OT key. The NT key is fine as it is.

 

[LazyHunter]

Bump

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree with the removal

 

[JBennett]

As a fan of the series I will say that his Awaken key should go, it's a very brief moment during the series and having it here with no evidence is bad.

For the 'macro-quantum', I'm a bit neutral on the subject, he creates Sub-atomic? particales so technically he should be able to bypase 'conventional durability'. However if there isn't any evidence of him replicating the feat as when he did later then I'm fine with that.

I guess on this topic, what do we consider Revival and Pre-Revival? By name alone when ever he creates his first DM body is when we should consider Revival and anything before that should be Pre-revival. However if it's just simply by Timeline then it's no longer Revival/ Pre-Revival is it?

Regardless I'm still neutral on the subject, if it ends up as a removal then just add my vote to it I'm not too hung up on what I personally this is a technicality but that's my vote.

Food for thought but would his Pincet Glove have anything to do with this topic?

 

[Schnee_One]

I....Kinda agree with removing that key

 

[Malox1696]

@JBennett

He used it twice, both just before making his DM body So it would fall under pre revival for sure but for OT kakine we don't know

 

[LazyHunter]

@JBennett

The Pincet Glove is not really a weapon, so I don't think so.

In other news, my next Toaru CRT after this will be a minor buff to almost all espers I kind of stumbled into yesterday.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh? Do tell

 

[LazyHunter]

One of the ealier volumes has a statement for Touma that would also apply to all espers except maybe Gunha. Do keep in mind it's a minor thing.

 

[Schnee_One]

I heard from Yomi that Gunha was Saint level

Thoughts?

 

[LazyHunter]

The series hasn't made a direct comparison between Gunha and Saints. So far I wouldn't put him at that level as more than a "maybe?" due to characters like Ollerus noticing that his ability should be more impressive than what it currently is.

 

[Malox1696]

U can guess gunha ability but taking all simple hint spread across the volumes and ss, after all magic started from coping esper, if ollerus say that they are similar to his, and we see that just by his will he can create pretty much anything (although he is an idiot) the answer is quite clear

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sooo... I suppose we are just waiting for staff approval here?

 

[LazyHunter]

We seem to mostly agree on removing the sentence and the Awakened key due to lack of feats, and I doubt this'll get much more attention from regular users, so yeah.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Eh, I would leave the awakened key.

 

[LazyHunter]

Awakened Kakine is 100% featless, though. He's also got no statements beyond his delusions of grandeur.

 

[Andrew48]

I actually always thought Awakened Kakine was a meme, considering he turned into a smudge in the next line.

Actually did he Awaken, like reach angel state? I don't think so, considering if he actually touched an Aeon, even if it is Osiris, he should not be turned into paste so fast.

 

[Malox1696]

I actually always thought Awakened Kakine was a meme, considering he turned into a smudge in the next line.
Actually did he Awaken, like reach angel state? I don't think so, considering if he actually touched an Aeon, even if it is Osiris, he should not be turned into paste so fast.

he reached it but accel base >>>>> KEKine so if both go angel from the difference is still the same

 

[Andrew48]

I actually always thought Awakened Kakine was a meme, considering he turned into a smudge in the next line.
Actually did he Awaken, like reach angel state? I don't think so, considering if he actually touched an Aeon, even if it is Osiris, he should not be turned into paste so fast.

he reached it but accel base >>>>> KEKine so if both go angel from the difference is still the same

Hm, good point, Aiwass did say he touched god's realm a bit.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Awakened Kakine is 100% featless, though. He's also got no statements beyond his delusions of grandeur.

He has no showings of his own given his short appearance, but given the reasons on his page and the Kabalah principles relating to angel forms his standing is justified.

 

[LazyHunter]

I personally disagree. The reasons in his page are not good enough, the first was Index talking about Accelerator wings, so it can't scale to "Awakened" Kakine because black wings Accelerator stomped him effortlestly, and the second is just his arrogant thoughts while drunk on his new power that were immediately proven wrong. Mikoto, AIM Burst and Taowu also developed angelic characteristics, including a halo that even winged Accelerator has only shown one time, and we don't scale the first two like this. Why should Kakine be different?

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me. Sorry about not noticing this thread until now.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I personally disagree. The reasons in his page are not good enough, the first was Index talking about Accelerator wings, so it can't scale to "Awakened" Kakine because black wings Accelerator stomped him effortlestly, and the second is just his arrogant thoughts while drunk on his new power that were immediately proven wrong. Mikoto, AIM Burst and Taowu also developed angelic characteristics, including a halo that even winged Accelerator has only shown one time, and we don't scale the first two like this. Why should Kakine be different?

Well, then this is another thing where we will disagree.

I will give you the one regarding the index quote. I didn't remember the quote well and went after what stands on the profile, so that part should likely be removed.


I just kinda wanted to include this

However, the fact that as an awakened esper he should be on the angel level and hence superior to saints remains in my opinion.

The comparision with Mikoto, AIM Burst and the Taowu is as if one asks why Kanzaki in angel cosplay doesn't count as angel.


The Taowu and AIM Burst aren't esper, we have hardly an understanding on why they have the appearance they have and whether their progress reached angel stages or even went in that direction is unknown.

Mikoto is closer to what "awakening" is, but there is a reason nobody calls it that, but instead refers to it as level 6 shift. Her developement is clearly different from Kakine and Accels awakening, meaning here as well we can draw no clear link.


Accels and Kakines "Awakening" on the other hand are clearly of the same nature and aside from developing angel like characteristics we know in practice from accelerator that the awakening process indeed is the step into the territory of angels.


The debate regarding that key aside, I would suggest we can do what this thread was originally for and remove the line from kakines base key for now.