Kaguya stats equivalence upgrade.

[Dzhindzholia]

I think the biggest question is if someone's chakra pool equates to their AP

If her TP jutsu is above or equal to 5-A than she is 5-A too with attacks.

 

[Devoyant]

@LucyyXNyuXHana

"Unless other characters have been checked on due to their energy source in the Naruto verse. If so, then yes Kaguya too should be upgraded accordingly."

I'm glad you mentioned this, because Naruto was considered planet level due to a energy source.

 

[Devoyant]

Seems we're finally progressing with @LucyyXNyuXHana post.

That being said, I want to talk about some of the things brought up.

"I think the biggest question is if someone's chakra pool equates to their AP. Thats the biggest thing about this thread and why I believe people are hesitant to pass Kaguya to a higher tier."

It's funny because Naruto and Sasuke AP are both considered planet level due to the chakra they absorbed from Hagoromo, so there's no reason why people are hesitant to pass Kaguya to a higher level minus the inconsistencies. It's honestly just a preconception.

And even coming to terms with the inconsistencies; it was entrenched Kaguya didn't want to kill Naruto and Sasuke, which is why she didn't just oneshot them after her recuperation. When she eventually decided to kill them, she was already low on chakra. This push forward the reason why Naruto was able to severe her arm. Also being low on chakra lowered her durability. In the same vein, if we pay close attention to their battle, Naruto seemed to be gaining the upper hand as it progressed. Why? Because Kaguya's chakra steadily dropped per Amenominaka used. Safe to say Kaguya would've most likely oneshot them when she was revitalized (when she was most powerful).

Conclusively, there's really no inconsistencies upon unveiling the circumstances. Naruto and Sasuke were literally unable to touch her when she was recuperated, and they had to use a sly tactics to punch her. They only began to overpower her when her chakra dropped.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

"Conclusively, there's really no inconsistencies upon unveiling the circumstances. Naruto and Sasuke were literally unable to touch her when she was recuperated, and they had to use a sly tactics to punch her. They only began to overpower her when her chakra dropped."

this is logical and goes along w/ the point that more chakra = a stronger character over all

Even Kaguya as a character is detailed as an absolute monster due to the sheer amount of chakra she has

"It's funny because Naruto and Sasuke AP are both considered planet level due to the chakra they absorbed from Hagoromo, so there's no reason why people are hesitant to pass Kaguya to a higher level minus the inconsistencies. It's honestly just a preconception."

This is good for the case of Kaguya, but I wouldn't be against people being hesitant for this to not apply to ALL Naruto characters. For instance, we know Sakura has a large chakra pool, big enough to help Obito spam kamui through Kaguya's dimensions but there isn't a clear indication on how much chakra she spent. It'd be unfair to calc her passed where she is since it'd likely be a unbacked by feats.

As for another cast of characters in the verse, I think it'd be safe to not apply this to tailed beast even if they're stated to be a mass of chakra. Although they regenerate chakra, it doesn't mean they have infinite chakra. So applying the more chakra = more ap thing for tailed beasts for anyone wondering-- it won't count there either.

If this more chakra = more ap thing is passed for Kaguya, it's soley on the fact that the character is already stated to be in the highest of tiers-- but more importantly becuase Kaguya at least has a visible consistency of having so much chakra, and being able to spend that much.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Professor
The statement literally says she changes the world around the people close to her. How does the word "world" reference a small area..?

"Around the people close to her."

Around the world.

Unless your saying an entire world or dimension lies in between individuals, this should be pretty obvious.

>Teleport Sakura and Kakashi

Because they are a part of T7? And it's easily explained by PIS as the purpose of fighting Kaguya was to do it as a whole team, they clearly weren't going to be left out. Plus, Sakura's purpose was (funny enough) neccesary here because without her, Obito would have no chance in finding Sasuke in different dimenions if Kaguya were to ever separate him and Naruto, which she did.

This also debunks your claim of switching dimensions and proves even more its fancy BFR. Since they were around her, they got teleported along with her. There's obviously not an entire world around Sakura and Kakashi to fit in with that the technique's description details. It's ridiculous to even imply that.

 

[Devoyant]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Wow.

The statement is "she changes the world around the people around her", meaning the physical world, or in this case the dimension that confines them. The statement in no way, shape or form implies there are dimensions between them.

To exemplify, when people say there are walls around us, what do you think they mean? That the walls lies between them? Clearly they mean they are confined by walls. Likewise, the people around Kaguya are confined in a world. We humans are confined in a planet.

I seriously can't believe I have to explain this.

"There's obviously not an entire world around Sakura and Kakashi"

There were on a dimension, so the dimension was around them.

"Because they are a part of T7? And it's easily explained by PIS as the purpose of fighting Kaguya was to do it as a whole team, they clearly weren't going to be left out."

Except they were constantly taken along after the first time they were brought along when she changes her dimension, which wasn't necessary since being in a dimension in the first place already means they could've known about the Sasuke separation ordeal thanks to Naruto's clone. To put it simply, they didn't need to be moved everytime Kaguya changed her worlds, yet they were. Naruto's clone could've easily told them Sasuke was separated, and they could've acted. Obito could've moved them into the dimension Kaguya reside, if they weren't taken.

Another note; can you leave this? You're not going to displace the source material. You're dragging us back.

 

[Devoyant]

@LucyyXNyuXHana

I agree. I feel like the logic of chakra = AP should be induced only for Naruto god-tiers considering their strength difference hinges on their chakra level. For example, we knew Kaguya was stronger than Madara because of Sasuke saying her chakra is far greater than Madara's. He looked at Kaguya and wondered how someone like that could exist because of how much she had.

I also agree with Kaguya's consistency of having so much chakra. For example, Madara who is considered planet level couldn't handle the sheer volume of chakra Kaguya was absorbing. That implies Kaguya's chakra exceeded planet level by many orders of magnitude. Yet this site still pegs her at planet level class? I seriously want to know who revises Narutoverse. Because I feel like he/she is purposely ignoring a lot of stuff.

 

[Hag0r0m0_0htsutsuki]

When you also take into account that kaguya was revived during the 4th war without any hamura chakra, when we know for a fact that her twin sons inherited a significant if not the majority of her power at birth, which is the entire reason she's rampaging to get that chakra back, we reach the conclusion that kaguya during the last war was still massively weaker than her prime self. Over half her chakra was absent when she respawned. Yet she had the power to use ETSO, and that was because she had the juubi who wasn't at full power itself.

I fear that the term 'accepted' in the forum has been largely substituted for the truth, at least in regards to Naruto.

I also want to know who are the people that decide what is accepted, because I'm starting to realize that there are many accepted misconceptions. Are these same people capable of being objective and acknowledging facts?

Because there's plenty that's gone ignored and disregarded.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Ok, bottomline is this:

• Kaguya's ETSB is Large Planet+ or whatever.

• Kaguya created that ETSB with IT chakra.

All this means is that Kaguya alone should have "Large Planet+ (Using Chakra from IT)", on her profile.

As far as What her strongest Jutsu is, it's her "1000 Vacuum Palms", Stated in the Databook. Of couse this is disregarding "Hax" abilities like the ETSB which is a TSB which disregards durability.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Hag0r0m0_0htsutsuki]

I have recently proven that kaguya' ETSO is greater than large planet. Read here[[1]], and as I said earlier, she was still weak compared to her prime. The juubi was never at full power during the war, and still it's energy levels reflected that of a planet at the very start of its many attempts to gain more power. And its power and energy only grew as the war progressed. In fact, the juubi went through some transformations during the war and before each one the juubi needed to increase its level of power.

Feel free to fact check my words, I'm sure you'll find this all within the chapters of the war arc.

To recap:

•The juubi' energy levels were that of a small planet in a massively weakened state and at the very beginning of a long run to gain more power.

•The juubi then goes through 3-5(not exact) transformations, each one requiring a greater level of power and energy.

•The juubi begins stealing chakra and stamina from the shinobi alliance, even fully draining hundreds of kurama cloaks

•The juubi spawns a god tree which then captures not only the entire alliance, but the populace of the planet and drains their chakra and stamina.

•Kaguya' revival using madara, which required a massive surge in chakra, 'way stronger than the tentails', a direct quote which places weakened kaguya above the juubi.

•Then another surge of chakra used to stabilize the biju chakra inside the juubi.

All those increases in power plus kaguy' use of ETSO, which I have provided the link to that thread.


So not only is ETSO stronger than large planet, the juubi power was capable of this all while not being at 100%. And kaguya very obviously was handicapped her self as she stated throughout the war and while lusting after Sasuke and Naruto chakra which was actually her own. She too was weaker than her prime self and not at 100%. They only had fractions of their full power, so simply put large planet is lowball.

Their upgrades are long overdue.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Kaguya's ETSB is Large Planet Level Kep took into account that there are moons in her dimensions and the distance.

 

[Hag0r0m0_0htsutsuki]

I've shown evidence for more than just another moon. I provided evidence of her dimensions remaining connected to her root. Since she detonated her ETSO in her root, it would affect all 5 connected dimensions.

That means at least two suns, 6 planets, and two moons plus a great deal of outer space would all be within range of ETSO' wake.

That is above large planet.

 

[BlackeJan]

Wait if she had a moons in her dimension or stars in the LN, then why won't it be accepted but there r other profiles that r accepted from statements? I understand that Naruto is a popular series but it's not fair that these popular series can't get upgrades like this certain cause people wanna see it as outliers but then u have these others series that aren't popular yet they get upgrades the moment someone mentions it just how it's mentioned in the LN and manga that there's a dimension, stars, or planets/moons (don't know if she had them though but using these as examples). I'm having a feeling that some people consider it an outlier by thinking "they don't look like they could" but yet characters r 3-A just cause they created it but never hear them about destroying it. Don't y'all think it's about time we can't be biased or ignore these feats when we all know that they could do this?

P.S: I'm not anger or frustrated I just feel this needs to be addressed

 

[Omimi]

I've shown evidence for more than just another moon. I provided evidence of her dimensions remaining connected to her root. Since she detonated her ETSO in her root, it would affect all 5 connected dimensions.

kaguya's 5-A ETSO = only one dimension destruction

kep said destroying multiple dimensions = 3-A which is outlier

 

[Devoyant]

Hagoromo makes a very good point, but it's going to deemed an outlier seeing as the usual impression on Narutoverse prevents it from getting above planet tier. God forbid Narutoverse get stronger, which should be logical development, but let's have piccolo jump from barely Star tier to universal tier. Outlier doesn't count when it's Dragonball.

Anyway, Large-planet level+ Kaguya seemed irrefutable. Anymore more possible counterargument to this?

 

[Golden_Void]

I have recently proven that kaguya' ETSO is greater than large planet. Read here[[1]], and as I said earlier, she was still weak compared to her prime. The juubi was never at full power during the war, and still it's energy levels reflected that of a planet at the very start of its many attempts to gain more power. And its power and energy only grew as the war progressed. In fact, the juubi went through some transformations during the war and before each one the juubi needed to increase its level of power.

Well lets see. Back when her sons were alive, the juubi/Kaguya had all the power of the tailed beasts, and she was defeated by her sons, each having yin or rang.

Hagoromo ended up getting both, making him comparable to the Juubi, and he stated that one-eye Madara was approaching his power, but Naruto and Sasuke could still handle him with both eyes and the god tree while lacking the full 9 and 8 tails, and could handle Kaguya.

Which doesn't change any 5-B ratings.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Devoyant

Did u see my long post above? lol

 

[Golden_Void]

Comparing her chakra from multiple dimension hax uses to her chakra when she used ETSB once produces a false conclusion from inequivalent data.

Also stop bringing up other verses just because your verse doesn't get the same treatment for whatever reasons.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

We also have kaguyas dimension creation which would have tier 4 results, but that's regarded as an outlier. So if we have more 5-A to tier 4 it might not be considered an outlier anymore.

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void What false conclusion?

Are you implying Amenominaka =< ETSB despite it was stated the former takes a huge amount of chakra, and it depleted her reserves?

Dragonball, Narutoverse, all fall under the scope of vsbattles line of reasoning, so yes; I should be able use the treatment Dragonball gets for reference.

 

[Golden_Void]

I'm saying something that wasn't commented on regarding chakra until her second use of the technique can't accurately compare to a technique she used once with no mention of energy loss.

Narutoverse's outliers are vastly different from DB's upgrades.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Everyone. It's not even an outlier. It's just not legit. The whole thing is that even if what you are claiming is accurate, and it's not going to be accepted, it would still be an outlier.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Void and Cal.

 

[Devoyant]

@Blackejan

It takes roughly 10000000+ thread about the same topic to get an upgrade.

Meanwhile, a random Dragonball threads pops up (Piccolo upgrade to universal)...gets accepted instantly. Outlier? What the hell is that?

Now now, don't assume am whining. I should be able to highlight a double-standard when I see one, shouldn't I?

 

[Golden_Void]

Complaining about Dragonball isn't improving any of your arguments.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Man, this is still going on?

 

[Devoyant]

How's this not legit?

ETSB is Large planet level.

Kaguya is shown absorbing more chakra for her use during her recuperation, than when she absorbed chakra to form ETSB.

Ergo, Kaguya after her recuperation > ETSB.

What's not legit about this? Both Naruto and Sasuke are considered planet level because of a chakra they absorbed, how is Kaguya any different?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Given=/=absorbed, btw. That said, I'm a wee bit behind on the convo so elaborate on the Kaguya bit.

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void

I'm not trying to improve my argument. It's already at a level it should be considering it hasn't been debunked..am highlighting a double-standard.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

kinda unrelated, but what tier is jinchuuriki hagaromo?

He is 200 zettatons pre jinchuuriki, but what is he after. 300 zettatons (madara gained around that much by becoming jinchuuriki)

 

[Golden_Void]

Kaguya shown absorbing more chakra when taking over Madara's body is directly contradicted by her absorbing a tiny amount compared to that while being already low on chakra, and BZ stating she was exponentionally more powerful and stronger than before.

 

[Devoyant]

@Therealcal

It was shown during Kaguya recuperation (after BZ stabbed Madara) that she absorbed/took tremendous amounts of chakra which span seven pages. Whereas, the chakra she took to form ETSB only span one and a half page. That implies, the chakra she amounted after her recuperation > ETSB which was calc at Large planet level. Therefore Kaguya after her recuperation was Large planet+.

Using Amenominaka depleted her reserves, and by extension, her durability and strength which is why Naruto was able to overpower her later.

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void

BZ wasn't speaking comprehensively, and the statement "stronger than before" wasn't added on VIZ.

Also, she had already absorb chakra from the earth populace. Logic dictates she wasn't going to absorb more than ever before, lest risking totally depleting the chakra of each and everyone trapped on IT.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay, imma need you to stop adding the + on Kaguya. Even if we were to accept that, Kaguya being in the top half of a tier with that large of a gap with no backup is laughable.

 

[Devoyant]

Don't we have a baseline for Large planet level?

 

[Golden_Void]

Let's see.

Kaguya absorbing multiple pages worth of chakra. Naruto said her chakra is even greater than the Juubi's. Neither Naruto or Sasuke at the time made any statements implying that they wouldn't be able to handle her. They've felt her untapped energy potential at this point.

For the majority of the fight, Naruto was basically fighting Kaguya 1v1. When she gathered more chakra, to which BZ said "she's exponentially stronger blablabla", and used ETSB, Naruto and Sasuke agreed that their only way to stop her then was to seal her.

The manga gave you everything but the kitchen sink to prove Kaguya's actual stats are nowhere near the power of her ETSB.

 

[BlackeJan]

So how could we tell if what she has in her dimension is a star/bunch of stars? i do think its not fair that there r series where they have a star they we apply the upgrade but not to this series.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

For one, Chakra doesnt equate to AP here so she can absorb all the chakra she wants, she's not getting a tier stronger.

Secondly, if this was actually true, then Kaguya would have been able to one shot T7 instantly without even needing the ETSB. From like the beginning. First T7 can deal with her when she has more power than the ETSB but when she busts it out they get scared shitless? That makes absolutely 0 sense.

This would be like saying we should upgrade Goku to beyond Broly's level in Z because Broly stomped everyone at their normal power but Goku nearly killed him with just a slight power boost from Vegeta and the others.

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void

Sasuke literally stated "How someone like that could exist" implying he was at least incredulous about her strength. There's also the fact both of them were literally unable to touch her initially, and they had to use a feign attack to successfully land an attack on her.

Kaguya could have easily one-shotted them before her chakra dropped, especially when neither Naruto or Sasuke could react when she appeared behind from a portal.

"Naruto and Sasuke agreed that their only way to stop her then was to seal her."

And, what does this proves? They also said the same thing when Kaguya took them to her lava dimension.

"Kaguya's actual stats are nowhere near the power of her ETSB."

The Manga also said she wasn't trying to kill them, which is why she didn't use any attack of that magnitude.

 

[Devoyant]

"For one, Chakra doesnt equate to AP here so she can absorb all the chakra she wants, she's not getting a tier stronger. "

Stop reading right there. Naruto's AP was pegged at planet level because of Hagoromo's chakra he took.