Kaguya stats equivalence upgrade.

[AstralKing7]

All the time tbh lol^ She can change her environment just by thinking which is so fast that it looks like she rewrote reality. SHe actually is rewritting everything but she isnt destroyng anything as well bruh. Thats why it cant be used for her AP.

The term rewrite can be used in lots of ways.

You also are misunderstanding, im not saying its not rewriting the dimensions but its not destroying them as well. The rewriting your thinking of its the act of destroying and rewriting again which is trying to be applied to AP.

You to rewrite like you said is to change but the way she "rewrites" is by switching dimensions. This cant be applied as reality warping lmao cause its just instant teleportation

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no, im sorry but I don't agree with any of that.

For one, why is it being thought of as Kaguya manipulating the dimensions themselves instead of just moving herself and her targets around? The technique is instant, which is why to the targets perspective, it looks like she changed the reality. itself when really they were the ones being changed. Changing places. In addition, no one else from the Naruto world, like those trapped in the Tsyukoymi and the Kage, are brought to each dimension everytime she "changes" them, which is why selectively choosing herself, Obito, and T7 to move to each space instead of switching the literal spaces themselves around is much more likely. If she was actually summoning whole dimensions, everyone else would have been moved as well, not just herself and 5 people. Not to mention, if she could literally summon dimensions, she'd be much much higher than 5-A here, which we consider an outlier.

Also, using Kakashi is a bad example to get this passed. While Kakashi did experience it and space-time jutsu like Kamui, the difference here is that Kakashi has saw BFR via portals. Kaguya's BFR via her dimension hopping doesnt use portals to drag people to each space, which is why Kakashi thinks she's re-writing the spaces. Him being instantly dragged to a different dimension without using a portal would make him think that.

 

[Devoyant]

I think I get it...you're saying she teleports entire dimensions around and not actually people with Amenominaka.

Touché. Although I prefer using the word "change" instead of "teleport."

 

[Devoyant]

@AstralKing7

Okay, I get your point. But am not saying the technique can be applied for AP. Conversely, am saying the chakra used for the technique can be applied of AP.

 

[AstralKing7]

i actually think it can be either one. She is either teleporting the dimensions or the people, they both have evidence tbh

But logcally it should be the people because if she was teleporting the dimensions it should have caused a paradox whith two worlds being in the same place at the same time. Its literally impossible to do that, well not impossible but logically her space time should have caused a black hole because of the Paradox

 

[Devoyant]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

I'm going to be that person that tells you, your own interpretation of the ability doesn't have more weight than several sources, which includes the databook. The Databook literally confirms she changes the world around the user. Inb4, it's hyperbole; only the header is hyperbole, not the description itself.

Also, if you pay attention to the Databook, it stated; "changes the world around the user and the people around her into another dimension." Only the people around her is susceptible to the effects, which is why the rest of the world, and Kages wasn't brought with her.

"she could literally summon dimensions, she'd be much much higher than 5-A here"

Large-planet+, nothing more.

"Kaguya's BFR via her dimension hopping doesnt use portals to drag people to each space, which is why Kakashi thinks she's re-writing the spaces."

First of all what Kakashi thinks, holds more weight than what, you, a bystander, thinks. Secondly, this is a conjecture. Thirdly, BZ and Databook confirmed what Kakashi thinks, soooo

 

[Devoyant]

@AstralKing7

"it should have caused a paradox whith two worlds being in the same place at the same time"

Using this logic, if i switch my pie with a pizza, both the pizza and the pie would be in the same place at the same time..make sense (sarcasm intended).

 

[YungManzi]

Whoa...I don't agree with all around 5-A Kaguya...but Devoyant is bringing some pretty good points on the subject of reality warping kaguya (If what he said about the databooks is true).

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Amenominaka:

A jutsu used by Kaguya with her "Rinnesharingan". Changes the world around the user and the people around her into another dimension. The dimensions it can move to are ones of lava, ice, gravity, sand, and acid, and these five dimensions are directly linked to (whatever dimension Black Zetsu mentions back when Naruto is there with them. I can't remember or figure out how to translate it). Using it consumes a huge amount of chakra, making it an eye jutsu only she can use.

I brought this from narutoforums,the translation of her jutsu,it teleports anyone within the range to other dimension,nothing really hard to understand or anything special about this.

And don't forget that it was translated by fans and may not be accurate.

 

[Devoyant]

>Changes the world around the user

>The dimension it can move to are ones of lava, ice, gravity, sand, and acid

>Still says it teleport everyone within her range.

.______.

Wiki is based on a fan interpretation.

 

[Devoyant]

Teleportation isn't even defined as moving.

Why does everyone here think their opinion is law?

 

[Dzhindzholia]

>Changes the world around the user

>The dimension it can move to are ones of lava, ice, gravity, sand, and acid

It is a fan translation,they could easily miss something.And it is TP,it obviously is,this is what everyone here sees.

Why does everyone here think their opinion is law?

Yeah,why do you think your opinion is better than anyone's here?Literally everyone disagreed with you.We have 0 evidencies to believe in your theory.

 

[AstralKing7]

two things can not exsist in the same space and time at the same time bruh i see apparently you dont know about those laws so your little joke about pizza and pie just made you look bad


Everyone literally has the same opinion about her Jutsu your the minority until you can prove us wrong without using assumptions

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

>Databook

Which we don't accept here unless it isn't heavily contradicted by anything, hyperbole or not, to my knowledge. Using the databook so much isn't a good idea to try and get any of this passed either. And what other sources? Kakashi who's interpretation can easily be explained by my own for him never dealing with such a technique prior to facing Kaguya and is used to dealing with portal generating jutsu like Kamui.

>The people around her.

Around her and no one else? This confirms it's BFR of only a few people, not summoning dimensions in a literal sense like we've interpreted it as before now. If the kages and Tsyukuyomi trapped people aren't effected then where do they go? Even if one could literally manipulate dimensions like how your describing, you can't switch a dimension with another and have only a few selected individuals move with you. It's either you hop people to other dimensions or hop a dimension in place of another but leave all the people where they are. Unless you have an explanation?

>Large Planet+, nothing more

Yeah no, im pretty sure literally switching dimensions containing planets is far beyond 5-A. If we took them as universes, this would be at least 3-A and probabaly give the user immeasurable strength. All of which is a massive massive outlier.

>Kakashi holds more weight

On a technique he's seen like 3 times only? Abusing character claims to make them better than ours to deny everything else isn't going to get anything passed. We give our own interpretations to try and make sense of stuff when the character's interpretation doesnt or is questionable, which this definitely is in Kakashi's case. Also, "bystander"? If your meaning that as an insult to be disrespectful, i'd drop it immediately.

 

[Devoyant]

Implying i said she changes worlds lmao.

Kakashi, Black Zetsu, Databook said so.

Kakashi, Black Zetsu, Databook >>>> you .

 

[AstralKing7]

u literally said she changes worlds= dimensions when you were tlaking to me about about her rewriting/changing her dimensions bruh

 

[Golden_Void]

I disagree with the reality warping thing. Hashirama on-panel says they're in an alternate time-space.

If she warped the entirety of the Earth, where's the rest of the alliance or the god tree (or anything else for that matter)? She absorbed IT chakra when no god tree was there. Another thing, assuming she reality warps, how does that explain that we can visibly see her other dimensions, only accessible by dimensional travel? Sakura asks "were we the only ones brought to this world?"

I'll reply to the rest later.

 

[YungManzi]

@Golden

Good point. It's likely teleportation, it's just there are multiple statements which suggest RW....and it's really weird.

Why would Kishimoto have a character mention something like "rewriting the world" when it's simply teleportation....hype? I Don't Think So...The databooks have hype statements like that sometimes, but that's exceedingly rare in the Naruto manga.

Normally statements like "Rewriting the world around them" with a given feat, would be taken literally on the battle wiki....but the entire situation is so strange...She has also shown the capacity to manipulate the environment of certain dimensions.

Given that Kaguya's time with us viewers was so short and very little is known about her most powerful abilities...such as limits among other things..most of the conclusions made here and on the naruto wiki is pure fan conjecture.

 

[AstralKing7]

the only way id accept it as rewriting the reality if we see a change in space that she is rewriting it like space moving or something right before she changes everything but thats not possible cause her dimensions are proven to be seperate

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void

I already addressed that. Only those close to her, are susceptible to the effects. The databook stated she changes the world around the user, and the people around her, meaning she changes the world around the people close to her.

Also she doesn't reality warp, but changes/transposes her dimensions

 

[YungManzi]

@Devoyant

So you're mnot arguing for reality warping?

You're more-so arguing a difference from the accepted mechanics of her ability...which would technically allow a way around resistance to teleportation.

 

[Devoyant]

Also, am not going to bother replying to the rest of the points presented, because it seems people are reaching for whatever argument they could find to refute the feat, some of which are downright unreasonable.

The fact remains, several sources supported the claim, she changes world. If this is a hyperbole, or wrongly deduced by Kakashi, Black Zetsu wouldn't have said the same thing. Mind you Black Zetsu is the will of Kaguya, and as a result knows the workings of her abilities. I mean, if we believe him saying ETSB was going to create a new dimension, and the databook saying it was going to destroy the world, I see no reason why we are refusing to accept his statement about Kaguya changing the time-space of her dimension, and the databook saying the same thing.

For what it's worth, Goku is considered universal level, from a joint attack that had shockwaves getting stronger as they propagated further. This is completely impracticable, yet we don't see people rubbishing the feat.

 

[Devoyant]

@YungManzi

I'm speaking in respect to the impression of those here. People seem to think reality warping is imbricating an aspect of reality, by forming things from naught. This has allowed the argument "she only has one dimension where she changes the settings" to thrive.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So your just going to ignore arguments based on your opinion? Thats conceding.

Also, "changing the world around the user and the people around her" can easily be interpreted as small scale changing. But obviously its wrong since we're talking about her whole dimensions right? But also obviously her dimensions are far far far bigger than the area around the user and others yes? These are contradicitions in itself.

 

[Devoyant]

@Professor

Your arguments are a quintessential of grasping at straws. Moreover what I said to Golden Void addressed the most relevant part of it.

"Can easily be interpreted as a small scale changing"

The statement literally says she changes the world around the people close to her. How does the word "world" reference a small area..?

 

[Devoyant]

Speaking of, here's another reason why Amenominaka wasn't a teleportation jutsu.

Kakashi and Sakura were also brought along with her. Why'd she teleport Kakashi and Sakura when she didn't care about them, but was only after Naruto and Sasuke?

Their presence only make sense if she changes the world around the people close to her, which is why Kakashi and Sakura were brought along because they were close to her.

 

[Omimi]

I was addressing the OP's argument, not yours Yung
That said...I don't think her ETSB should count as reality warping since its the literal only thing that makes her AP higher than normal 5-B, 5-A. The way I see it, it can't be both AP and hax.

creating dimension = hax

destroying dimension = AP

 

[AstralKing7]

creation can equal ap

 

[Omimi]

It also depends on the technique used. Chakra usage doesn't automatically equate to AP. For example Obito used Sakura's 100 healings chakra (which was greater than SOSP Naruto clone chakra) to kamui across Kaguya's dimensions, which was the bare minimum since they weren't his dimensions

PIS

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Nah,it is not PIS,maby her Byakugou mark has a lot of chakra,and I also want to remind that Naruto verse doesn't follow wiki's tiering and AP things.

 

[Devoyant]

I'm just going to sum up what's going on here before someone comes here picking sides without coming to terms with the arguments.

Kaguya absorbed more chakra during her recuperation, than she did when she formed ETSB. ETSB was calc at Large-planet level, meaning the chakra she absorbed during that point was an equivalent of Large-planet level. Since Kaguya absorbed more after her recuperation, that means she had more power than ETSB after her recuperation.

Someone brought the claim ETSB was her most strongest attack, and i had to prove Kaguya spends more chakra using Amenominaka than ETSB. Ergo, Amenominaka >= ETSB (chakra wise).

However, the argument came up that Amenominaka was a teleportation jutsu, despite Kakashi saying it's a jutsu that allows Kaguya to change worlds. Black Zetsu, who knows the workings of Kaguya's abilities, who will trusted when he said ETSB was going to destroy and create a new time-space; also said the same thing. The Databook also said the same thing.

Despite all these, people are still saying it was a teleportation jutsu with literally no citation from the Manga, or the databook, but from the wiki. And they have the gods to tell me my proposition is based on an opinion?...when it was actually based on the manga.

Furthermore, most of the counter-arguments brought to refute the feat has been terrible. The only argument that'd have successfully debunk the technique mechanics is the proposition the rest of the world, and Kages were not taken along when Kaguya changed her dimensions. However, the Databook ascertained the world is only changed around those close to Kaguya, and herself, which explains why the Kages, and the rest of the world didn't hitch a ride; they were not close to Kaguya.

In short, Amenominaka is NOT a teleportation tech, and if we consider the fact the chakra used for it can be applied for AP, and also the fact the version of Kaguya after her recuperation was stronger than when she absorbed chakra to form ETSB, this forms the inference she's Large-planet level+

 

[Devoyant]

Also, can we please refrain from plucking arguments from literally everywhere? Like, someone brought up switching things makes them appear in the same place, at the same time. How in gods name does switching things make them appear in the same coordinate?

I switched myself with another person in Hawaii does not mean, we will land on the same place.

Edit: Sasuke's Amenotejikara is an ability that allows him to switch things. I've yet to see him switch something with another, only for them to appear in the same place.

Similarly, trying to use a logical approach on the mechanics of an ability fictionally-centered is inexpedient, so please refrain from argument like "you can't switch a dimension with another and have only a few selected individuals move with you."

Using logic is only justified when it is used in relation with a principle, like gravity, or the laws of Newton, because Naruto world clearly follow such laws.

 

[BlackeJan]

creating dimension = hax

destroying dimension = AP

Well there r profiles here that have 3-A AP just for creating a universe but never hear anything about destroying it

 

[Golden_Void]

A technique that takes a few people in a certain area while not affecting anything else sounds like a sort of teleportation or something. Reality warping implies the actual real life NV setting would change. Hashirama and Obito stating they're in an alternate space is evidence against that.

 

[Devoyant]

@Golden Void

Well just because it sound like it, doesn't mean it is. The effects of Shunshin sounds like teleportation, doesn't mean it is teleportation.

Amenominaka is not necessarily a reality warping attack, as in it doesn't overlap dimensions with another reality.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

the world is only changed

Just because you see the word "changes" doesn't mean it lierally changes,it is just how they tried to explain the jutsu.

Amenominaka >= ETSB (chakra wise).

Prove it.

 

[Devoyant]

The word "change" is hardly an explanation. And unlike the Manga, the Databook clarified Shunshin wasn't a teleportation jutsu. If she doesn't change worlds literally, the Databook would say differently.

I proved it. But I'll do it again, but later.

 

[BlackeJan]

Yall do realize that u keep saying the same thing and its been going in a full circle right? just reach a compromise

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

"Despite all these, people are still saying it was a teleportation jutsu with literally no citation from the Manga, or the databook, but from the wiki. And they have the gods to tell me my proposition is based on an opinion?...when it was actually based on the manga."

If this is the case then pretty much whatever anyone else is saying just off of opinions alone should be rendered invalid.

If you guys want to shoot down the idea of this thread-- provide evidence that Kaguya's ame technique doesn't use more chakra than ESTB.

From what I've seen, Devo has shown multiple times through source material that ame has weakened Kaguya more than when she used ESTB. Ame is also showed by source material AND databook material to be described as a technique is different from just teleportation alone.

Undoubtedbly, Kaguya does have enough chakra to surprass large-planet level BUT

I think the biggest question is if someone's chakra pool equates to their AP. Thats the biggest thing about this thread and why I believe people are hesitant to pass Kaguya to a higher tier.

If chakra was used to determine someone's AP, it would create inconsistencies as a lot of characters w/ tons of chakra haven't shown to duke out as much AP as their stated to have. It's much safer to just stick to techniques users have performed. The only time chakra should be taken into consideration into AP is powerscaling characters with similar techniques and similar pools of chakra ((hence the whole reincarnation drama w/ Naruto and Sasuke)).


My conclusion: We shouldn't let Kaguya's AP be scaled to how much energy she's using. Yes she has energy well above large-planet level but it shouldn't be applied to AP if she isn't using it offensively. Theoretically she CAN, but until it is applied as an attack it shouldn't be looked at yet.

Unless other characters have been checked on due to their energy source in the Naruto verse. If so, then yes Kaguya too should be upgraded accordingly.

 

[Devoyant]

@BlackeJan

Ad nauseam does wonders.