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Never said that.
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Kaguya Otsutsuki vs Queen Mami
- Thread starter Homu_Sweet_Homu
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@Homu
In Character Kaguya spammed it against people in the past according to Hagoromo. PIS kept her from using it against Naruto.
In Character Kaguya spammed it against people in the past according to Hagoromo. PIS kept her from using it against Naruto.
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Also, Infinite Tsukuyomi was already activated by Madara before Kaguya was revived.
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@FinalOrder iirc that is ecause genjutsu us basically useless against Naruto, or at least against Sasuke who will break him out of it.
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Lol, no. Genjutsu isn't useless against Naruto, although he's resistant due to being a perfect jinchüriki. It was Sasuke that saved Team 7 from the Infinite Tsukuyomi.
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Yeah, I mean tmostly resistant, not only is he a Jinchuriki he has Six paths power, which I have a feeling also puts him above most genjutsu that is not IT.
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Bump
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Inconclusive then?
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So far yeah...TheFinalOrder said:
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Well count me as Inconclusive. It seems to divisive at best after reading the arguments.
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Bump
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- #133
Another bump.
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Za bunpo
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Mami FRA
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Inconclusive FRA. I know absolutely nothing about Madoka Magica.
There are too many factors to consider.
Mami's profile is way too vague in terms of abilities(at least for this match in particular).
Does power drain refer to magic drain?(Which in this case would be used to drain Kaguya's chakra)
How fast does it work? Is it passive? Can she drain Kaguya's massive amounts of chakra before freezing after being BFR'd? How does her attack reflection work?
How good is Mami's resistance to mind manipulation/illusions?(Genjutsu from powerful genjutsu users can still work on people who have resistance to it.....I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on this one because genjutsu is a shaky topic to begin with).
Mami has multiversal range with her power drain, but can it still work if she can't sense cross-dimensionally?
Until we know the answer to these questions, there are too many factors to say who wins for sure.....Like I said, Inconclusive FRA.
There are too many factors to consider.
Mami's profile is way too vague in terms of abilities(at least for this match in particular).
Does power drain refer to magic drain?(Which in this case would be used to drain Kaguya's chakra)
How fast does it work? Is it passive? Can she drain Kaguya's massive amounts of chakra before freezing after being BFR'd? How does her attack reflection work?
How good is Mami's resistance to mind manipulation/illusions?(Genjutsu from powerful genjutsu users can still work on people who have resistance to it.....I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on this one because genjutsu is a shaky topic to begin with).
Mami has multiversal range with her power drain, but can it still work if she can't sense cross-dimensionally?
Until we know the answer to these questions, there are too many factors to say who wins for sure.....Like I said, Inconclusive FRA.
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@YM
Mami basically has the same abilities as her canon-self but much, much better.
Verse equalization makes us treat Magic as Chakra. Yes, she can absord Kaguya's power.
Considering Mami is a great deal stronger than Kaguya, I would say Mami can drains her easily. Her attack reflection is an omni-directional. Trying to get her from behind likely won't work.
Even the weakest Magical girl can resist witch kiss, a form of mind manip that can controls hundreds of people into commiting mass suicides, they also resist it on daily basis. And Mami is like millions times stronger than them.
Cross-dimensional range<<<<<<<Multiversal range.
Mami basically has the same abilities as her canon-self but much, much better.
Verse equalization makes us treat Magic as Chakra. Yes, she can absord Kaguya's power.
Considering Mami is a great deal stronger than Kaguya, I would say Mami can drains her easily. Her attack reflection is an omni-directional. Trying to get her from behind likely won't work.
Even the weakest Magical girl can resist witch kiss, a form of mind manip that can controls hundreds of people into commiting mass suicides, they also resist it on daily basis. And Mami is like millions times stronger than them.
Cross-dimensional range<<<<<<<Multiversal range.
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@Homu
Hmmm....This makes things interesting. I'm changing my vote to Kaguya.
1. I'll come back to the point about chakra and magic near the end. Well my other questions are still in effect...."How fast does it work? Is it passive? Can she drain Kaguya's massive amounts of chakra before freezing after being BFR'd?"
2. I don't see how higher stats grants someone the ability to drain someone's power faster. Kaguya can also absorb chakra/magic via rinnegan.
3. I don't really want to go into genjutsu as it would probably derail the topic.
4. "Cross-dimensional range<<<<<<<Multiversal range.".....ummm
My point in asking if Mami's ability can work if she can't sense Kaguya cross-dimensionally was this....Verse equalization=Chakra IS Magic. In Kaguya's profile it says this:
"When Kaguya or her targets teleports into a separate dimension, they become impossible to detect by normal means or even by the presence of one's chakra unless a bridge in space-time is forcibly created between one dimension and the next."
Which would logically mean that mami will not be able to sense Kaguya while she is inside of her dimensions, this could cause huge problems for Mami as she won't know where Kaguya is until Kaguya opens a rift between dimensions, which could help canel out her attack reflection(since it isn't passive) and completely render Power drain useless(unless she can attack people across universes via power drain without being able to sense them.)
Kaguya also has higher regen, can fly, and she has Limited Precog.
My vote goes to Kaguya.
Hmmm....This makes things interesting. I'm changing my vote to Kaguya.
1. I'll come back to the point about chakra and magic near the end. Well my other questions are still in effect...."How fast does it work? Is it passive? Can she drain Kaguya's massive amounts of chakra before freezing after being BFR'd?"
2. I don't see how higher stats grants someone the ability to drain someone's power faster. Kaguya can also absorb chakra/magic via rinnegan.
3. I don't really want to go into genjutsu as it would probably derail the topic.
4. "Cross-dimensional range<<<<<<<Multiversal range.".....ummm
My point in asking if Mami's ability can work if she can't sense Kaguya cross-dimensionally was this....Verse equalization=Chakra IS Magic. In Kaguya's profile it says this:
"When Kaguya or her targets teleports into a separate dimension, they become impossible to detect by normal means or even by the presence of one's chakra unless a bridge in space-time is forcibly created between one dimension and the next."
Which would logically mean that mami will not be able to sense Kaguya while she is inside of her dimensions, this could cause huge problems for Mami as she won't know where Kaguya is until Kaguya opens a rift between dimensions, which could help canel out her attack reflection(since it isn't passive) and completely render Power drain useless(unless she can attack people across universes via power drain without being able to sense them.)
Kaguya also has higher regen, can fly, and she has Limited Precog.
My vote goes to Kaguya.
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1) We don't have a timeframe. The point is that Kaguya eventually dies if she BFR. Also, literally only one place BFR (even then, she can break free from the ice)
2) Queen Mami resists drain.
4) Except that if Queen Mami has better sensing than the one Kaguya negated, she can't negate it.
5) Queen Mami has Mid healing to her Low-Mid regen. That, and she one shots via AP gap.
2) Queen Mami resists drain.
4) Except that if Queen Mami has better sensing than the one Kaguya negated, she can't negate it.
5) Queen Mami has Mid healing to her Low-Mid regen. That, and she one shots via AP gap.
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Worth mentioning that the victim Mami drained will become vulnurable to pretty much everything. There is a time where her victim died from getting hit by a pitch in baseball. There is also one time where the victim died from a love tap from a folding fan.
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1) Neither Ice manipulation, fire manipulation, nor extreme weather envirements are listed as resistances in either of her profiles.
"By using her third eye, Kaguya is able to teleport herself and anyone without a certain range to one of her dimensions. Those affected by this technique are caught completely off guard, as it occurs instantly. She can position those that she teleports into various hazards native to these dimensions, such as encasing them in blocks of ice or directly above rivers of lava."
2)Okay...i'll take your word for it (although it isn't really listed in her profile.....the only thing that kind of sounds similar is Life drain, but that doesn't really sound like chakra/magic absorption).
4)Better sensing? Naruto could sense Madara's limbo clones who operate on another plane of existence. It's a moot point because it's not like it can be proven who has better sensing abilities(at least objectively)....anyway...based on verse equilization rules, she won't be able to sense Kaguya.
5) Once again, Mid level regen isn't stated in her profile so I have no way to tell if what you are typing is true.
AP gap? They are both on the same tier...The gap in AP can't possibly be severe enough to warrant a win via AP advantage(Especially since Kaguya herself isn't baseline small planet level)....I can see giving her AP and speed advantage because of her stat amp, but Kaguya's near 360 degree vision coupled with her teleportation and sharingan should be more than enough to make up for that .
Kaguya could really just teleport Mami inside of one of her diminsions and leave her there, and if Mami can't teleport across dimensions she wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Even if Mami can use power drain across dimensions, she likely couldn't survive in the acid or lava dimensions long enough for Kaguya to be affected by her power, because she can't fly.(unless she can drain all of her chakra instantly).
imma try to not type essays from now on when adressing points.
"By using her third eye, Kaguya is able to teleport herself and anyone without a certain range to one of her dimensions. Those affected by this technique are caught completely off guard, as it occurs instantly. She can position those that she teleports into various hazards native to these dimensions, such as encasing them in blocks of ice or directly above rivers of lava."
2)Okay...i'll take your word for it (although it isn't really listed in her profile.....the only thing that kind of sounds similar is Life drain, but that doesn't really sound like chakra/magic absorption).
4)Better sensing? Naruto could sense Madara's limbo clones who operate on another plane of existence. It's a moot point because it's not like it can be proven who has better sensing abilities(at least objectively)....anyway...based on verse equilization rules, she won't be able to sense Kaguya.
5) Once again, Mid level regen isn't stated in her profile so I have no way to tell if what you are typing is true.
AP gap? They are both on the same tier...The gap in AP can't possibly be severe enough to warrant a win via AP advantage(Especially since Kaguya herself isn't baseline small planet level)....I can see giving her AP and speed advantage because of her stat amp, but Kaguya's near 360 degree vision coupled with her teleportation and sharingan should be more than enough to make up for that .
Kaguya could really just teleport Mami inside of one of her diminsions and leave her there, and if Mami can't teleport across dimensions she wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Even if Mami can use power drain across dimensions, she likely couldn't survive in the acid or lava dimensions long enough for Kaguya to be affected by her power, because she can't fly.(unless she can drain all of her chakra instantly).
imma try to not type essays from now on when adressing points.
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1) So? She is simply too strong and those powers don't ignore durability
4) Yes you can prove it. And sensing stuff in a different universe is far better than sensing something in the same universe but a different plane of existence
5) Because it isn't regen, it's healing
6) I already explained above why she is far stronger in raw power. Only real reason why she is only Low 5-B is because jumping two whole tiers seemed exaggerated. But she is in the upper hand of the tier, while Kaguya is not.
7) If she teleports her in a different dimension, she simply starts draining. BFR doesn't count if the opponent is still affecting you.
8) Lava is 9-B. And she can simply use some ribbons to make a safe spot.
4) Yes you can prove it. And sensing stuff in a different universe is far better than sensing something in the same universe but a different plane of existence
5) Because it isn't regen, it's healing
6) I already explained above why she is far stronger in raw power. Only real reason why she is only Low 5-B is because jumping two whole tiers seemed exaggerated. But she is in the upper hand of the tier, while Kaguya is not.
7) If she teleports her in a different dimension, she simply starts draining. BFR doesn't count if the opponent is still affecting you.
8) Lava is 9-B. And she can simply use some ribbons to make a safe spot.
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1) Fictional authors don't care about a character's durability being too strong for an element.
Naruto and Sasuke were both effected by her dimensions.
Kaguya's power's actually do ignore durability to a certain extent, in her ice dimension she doesn't just freeze people, she can teleport them inside of an ice structure. Naruto and Sasuke(two moon level+ characters) could only escape her ice by using a supernatural ability that specifically counters the ice element(Amaterasu, a fire jutsu which actually ignores durability to an extent).
2)Okay...? I really don't see how one is better than the other. Once again, SBA states she won't be able to sense Kaguya cross dimensionally.
3)Okay...
4)I already said what I had to say about this in my last comment.
5) Adressed this in #2^^
6)Even not metioning the lava, Kaguya still has some degree of acid manipulation via her sea of acid dimension(which should ignore durability to some extent).....thinking about it, it's strange this isn't in her profile(Although....now thinking about it, her other dimensions aren't really listed on her profile as powers either even though she should have a small degree of lava,acid,ice, and sand manipulation while inside each respective dimension via teleportation).
Mami can stand on top of floating ribbons?
Naruto and Sasuke were both effected by her dimensions.
Kaguya's power's actually do ignore durability to a certain extent, in her ice dimension she doesn't just freeze people, she can teleport them inside of an ice structure. Naruto and Sasuke(two moon level+ characters) could only escape her ice by using a supernatural ability that specifically counters the ice element(Amaterasu, a fire jutsu which actually ignores durability to an extent).
2)Okay...? I really don't see how one is better than the other. Once again, SBA states she won't be able to sense Kaguya cross dimensionally.
3)Okay...
4)I already said what I had to say about this in my last comment.
5) Adressed this in #2^^
6)Even not metioning the lava, Kaguya still has some degree of acid manipulation via her sea of acid dimension(which should ignore durability to some extent).....thinking about it, it's strange this isn't in her profile(Although....now thinking about it, her other dimensions aren't really listed on her profile as powers either even though she should have a small degree of lava,acid,ice, and sand manipulation while inside each respective dimension via teleportation).
Mami can stand on top of floating ribbons?
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Urgh, it's one of those battles again...
Fact is, I cannot read anywhere, even in the Manga, that Mami has any kind of heat resistance. So the Lava should affect her -as should the acid, in fact.
Who of those is even faster? Kaguya is fast enough to Blitz Naruto, who has dodged a Fast as Light attack point Blanc, so she should be REALLY fast. I do, however, not know, how fast exactly Mami is. She also Blitzed Sasuke, who should see everything in Slow Motion and yet she blitzed him before he even reacted.
Half her attacks ignote conventional Durability, like her Ash Killing Bone and her 80 God Palm. Even her silly Hair Rabbit Needle should have MoonClass AP, since, well, it wrecked a MoonClass Susanoo. I've not the slightest clue how Mami would deal with the Expanding Truth Seeker Orb.
The Crux of this fu**ing battle seems to once again who can outhax the other. If Mami's Powerdrain and Disable work on Kaguya, it is pretty much an instant Hax-Curbstomp. If it does not, I cannot see Mami taking this.
Fact is, I cannot read anywhere, even in the Manga, that Mami has any kind of heat resistance. So the Lava should affect her -as should the acid, in fact.
Who of those is even faster? Kaguya is fast enough to Blitz Naruto, who has dodged a Fast as Light attack point Blanc, so she should be REALLY fast. I do, however, not know, how fast exactly Mami is. She also Blitzed Sasuke, who should see everything in Slow Motion and yet she blitzed him before he even reacted.
Half her attacks ignote conventional Durability, like her Ash Killing Bone and her 80 God Palm. Even her silly Hair Rabbit Needle should have MoonClass AP, since, well, it wrecked a MoonClass Susanoo. I've not the slightest clue how Mami would deal with the Expanding Truth Seeker Orb.
The Crux of this fu**ing battle seems to once again who can outhax the other. If Mami's Powerdrain and Disable work on Kaguya, it is pretty much an instant Hax-Curbstomp. If it does not, I cannot see Mami taking this.
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I vote Mami for reasons stated above.
Also, Kaguya's BFR isn't that effective. The reason is because, in character, she follows her target, and does not just leave them there.
Also, Kaguya's BFR isn't that effective. The reason is because, in character, she follows her target, and does not just leave them there.
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@Kaltias
1) Your initial point was that because Mami's durability was too high, natural elements like ice and lava couldn't effect her, my counter-argument was that two moon level+ characters were effected by her elements and could only escape them under specific conditions....Kaguya herself could only escape the ice structure because of her teleportation.
2) Verse equalization is in the SBA.
1) Your initial point was that because Mami's durability was too high, natural elements like ice and lava couldn't effect her, my counter-argument was that two moon level+ characters were effected by her elements and could only escape them under specific conditions....Kaguya herself could only escape the ice structure because of her teleportation.
2) Verse equalization is in the SBA.
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@TeenAngel
The only reason she was following them in the first place was to cllect their chakra, if she had no reason to follow them she would not have done so.
The only reason she was following them in the first place was to cllect their chakra, if she had no reason to follow them she would not have done so.
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@Kaltias I think his point is that the ice probably cant be escaped by physical means.
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Mami is a great deal stronger than Kagu, unless the ice has some sort of hax like Toshiro, Mami will break it out with little effort through sheer brute force.
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@Katias. I mean her Teleport, not her physical speed. Amenominaka and her Big Sister of a Jutsu are just insanely overpowered.
I've tred to look for a statement of Mami's physical power, but from what I could find, she is actually not that much stronger than a human being, from Punches, Kicks and Lifting Feats. A lot faster, of course, but as far as I could find, not that much stronger. The Maximum I was able to find are her Cannons.
I've tred to look for a statement of Mami's physical power, but from what I could find, she is actually not that much stronger than a human being, from Punches, Kicks and Lifting Feats. A lot faster, of course, but as far as I could find, not that much stronger. The Maximum I was able to find are her Cannons.
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Should I edit her profile? her rating is somehow still unknown.
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@Kaltias
Rockers point of "his point is that the ice probably cant be escaped by physical means."
Was exactly what I was hinting towards with my statements....I'm not trying to pull NLF either I even mentioned above "Kaguya herself could only escape the ice structure because of her teleportation." If it's strong enough to effect Kaguya(someone on the same tier), how will Mami break out with pure brute force? She has unknown listed for lifting and striking strength and no resistance to Ice manipulation/ etreme weather conditions, she doesn't have potent fire manipulation either.
Rockers point of "his point is that the ice probably cant be escaped by physical means."
Was exactly what I was hinting towards with my statements....I'm not trying to pull NLF either I even mentioned above "Kaguya herself could only escape the ice structure because of her teleportation." If it's strong enough to effect Kaguya(someone on the same tier), how will Mami break out with pure brute force? She has unknown listed for lifting and striking strength and no resistance to Ice manipulation/ etreme weather conditions, she doesn't have potent fire manipulation either.
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