Kaguya Otsutsuki vs Darth Vader

[WeeklyBattles]

No, that's potency

It's range literally mentioned on his profile as well

Range: Extended human melee range with lightsaber, planetary with Force powers (capable of Force Choking someone in orbit around a planet while he's on the surface) | Star System (Per the Force Secret "Distant Power"), Galatic with telepathy

I see nothing about his ability to affect trillions of people being range

Its Potency

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Range: Extended human melee range with lightsaber, planetary with Force powers (capable of Force Choking someone in orbit around a planet while he's on the surface) | Star System (Per the Force Secret "Distant Power"), Galatic with telepathy

I see nothing about his ability to affect trillions of people being range

Its Potency

Range is probably the wrong term, this 'subtly manipulate trillions' feat is more like the mind hax version of aoe instead of single target damage when you talk about AP.

A weak damage output feat over a large area is not more AP than the same damage output with a single target attack. A weak mind control over many people is not more potent than the same weak mind control over one person, its just a matter of aoe.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Range is doing something across a galaxy, which vader has done, while potency is doing something like mind-haxxing trillions at once. Imagine what would happen if Vader focused it all into kaguya instead of so many people, she would be out, or at least incapacitated.
If her body is destroyed she can come back, but she can't come back if she's turned into a brick or a chip. Transmutation =/= destruction. If her cells no longer exist there's nothing she can do.

Having every last cell erased and then reapearing from nothing is the same feat as having all of her cells turned into dirt or whatever and regenerating from nothing. It's not like she's splitting cells to physically regenerate the way piccolo or someone might, she's a chakra being who is projecting a physical avatar to interact with the world, just like all tailed beasts do.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I find it silly additionally that people are assuming that each fighter is going to instantly use their best moves that also are most conveniently tailored to the exact strengths and weaknesses of the opponent that they are facing... that they will immediately go from 0%-100% without trying to figure out anything about their opponent, get a feel for what their skills and strategy are like, or anything of the sort before taking the risk of exposing their aces in the hole.

Standard battle assumptions are in place, which means characters are 'in character but willing to kill'.

Unless EU Vader's MO when fighting every random person he comes into conflict with is to go for his strongest mind hax or alchemy or whatever as fast as he possibly can to instantly blitz them, he is probbaly instead going to observe his enemy a bit and test the waters to learn what he can first. This is especially true if he sees Kaguya using powers and techniques he's never seen before.

Meanwhile, Kaguya really is the type to instantly go for one shot moves, manipulate the battlefield into a dimension more favorable to her, etc. She doesn't have anywhere near the same kind of human personality, wariness, or curiosity that Vader does because she's more of a deity in her own mind and the mind of those in the Naruto world.

So when it comes down to standard battle assumptions, the two will not be instantly trying to go full strength on each other and Kaguya is the one who is more likely to be 'careless' and start throwing around her big moves first instead of trying to hold her trump cards until she knows they are going to work.

 

[Dekoshu]

Kaguya due to the ability to actually warp reality, cause widespread natural disasters, perform an enormous Truth-Seeking Ball, which can bypass conventional durability, can inevitably kill with her All-Killing Ash Bone, and use her portals to ensure they're more likely to hit Darth Vader. Also, she can take others to another dimension full of acid, lava, ice, or even gravity.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Doesn't Vader have precog? I'm sure he can avoid the portals with that. But I doubt he can physically harm her, so I have to ask, how well does Kaguya resist mind attacks? If the answer is 'not so well' then I'm giving it to Vader, otherwise, Kaguya.

 

[Volundox]

He has pre-cog and the ability to see glimpses of the future. Kaguya has shown no resistance to mind hax only to infinite tsukuyomi, which work im completely different ways and Vader's is far more potent.

Natural disasters which Kaguya cause are largely irrelevant, an earthquake for volcanic eruption would take too long to have an effect on this fight, Vader would win before they become a factor. Reality warping is mentioned no where in Kaguya's profile so i can't really comment. Are you refering to the portals? The expansive truth seeking ball takes prep to use, vader is 46 times faster not taking into account combat speed, there's no way she will get a chance to use it. The ash killing bones will never hit vader, they have to make physical contact and Vader should have at least 1.5c combat speed via powerscaling, he will see them as practically still in the air and dodge them. The other dimensions such as ones with ice,gravity and lava will have little effect, Luke has shown the ability to easily walk across lava as if it was the sidewalk, Gravity would be the only one with any affect, but it would also affect kaguya as well.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Don't we have a rule against speedstomps now anyways? Why isn't speed equalized here given that both fighters have enough variety in skills that taking away a speed advantge wouldn't leave one helpless.

 

[Dekoshu]

Let's equalize the speed? Tell Sirius the EM Troll about this, please.

 

[Volundox]

I don't know about that. Vader's only real saving grace in this match up is that he has the speed advantage to be able to utilise his superior hax. But if it become equalised then i vote inconclusive.

 

[Phantasys]

Vader stomps via hax already mentioned above.

 

[Dekoshu]

This is becoming yet another "stomp thread for Kaguya and not even the slightest chance" situation.

 

[Volundox]

It basically is, Vader stomps unequalised and its a potential Kaguya stomp with speed equalised.

 

[Volundox]

Bump

 

[Volundox]

Is there a verdict for this?

 

[Dekoshu]

At a potential stomp for Kaguya...? OK. I don't get why the opening poster would left out the lack of speed equalization in the first place. And if there a verdict, it's clearly Darth Vader, anyway.

 

[Volundox]

Because Vader has far better hax and speed but it dwarfed in AP. If its speed equalised its a Kaguya one shot.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

At a potential stomp for Kaguya...? OK. I don't get why the opening poster would left out the lack of speed equalization in the first place.

Op doesn't seem to know about standard battle assumptions since they tried to claim that there was no 'verse energy equalization' and got pissy at me for assuming canon vader instead of EU vader since it was unspecified, and SBA say that you go with the strongest canon version.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Because Vader has far better hax and speed but it dwarfed in AP. If its speed equalised its a Kaguya one shot.

And that can't be allowed right? Better to have vader instantly one shot than have speed equalized and have kaguya be able to fight back and maybe have a tie or possible win herself a battle once in a while.

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

I wasn't angry. If I appeared to then apologies. I just said that the movies aren't to be used because they are underpowered.

It's pretty obvious this is EU Vader given it's Vader vs a God-TIer Naruto Character.

Objectively Chakra and The Force are not the same tho.

 

[Dekoshu]

So it's deliberately left out?

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

Vader has 8 votes if I counted right (or just from people saying Vader stomps, which i counted as a vote) and Kaguya gets 5.

Is this to be added to their pages or is this too much of a stomp?

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

And that can't be allowed right? Better to have vader instantly one shot than have speed equalized and have kaguya be able to fight back and maybe have a tie or possible win herself a battle once in a while.

Yes, because Vader has quality and Kaguya doesn't

In all seriousness, it would be unfair to equalize speed because tier difference. It would be more fair if they were speed equalized with a character like Emperor Vitiate who can match Kaguya's AP and dura, which makes it a valid fight.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I wasn't angry. If I appeared to then apologies. I just said that the movies aren't to be used because they are underpowered.
It's pretty obvious this is EU Vader given it's Vader vs a God-TIer Naruto Character.

Objectively Chakra and The Force are not the same tho.

They aren't the same but you have to allow for them to accomplish similar things and have them be able to interact.

'genjutsu doesn't work because vader doesn't have chakra... but the force works on kaguya because lol reasons' was when this came up.

 

[Volundox]

It should be mentioned but it was stated by OP to be EU vader when talking to Dancer pretty early in the thread so it had little bearing on the debate.

I don't see why this wouldn't be added considering she has a notable loss from sidious but we should wait for an admin to give permission, in case people still have a case to make for kaguya.

 

[Dekoshu]

I voted for Kaguya, myself. And yes, we should've known without any excuse and any right to argue otherwise that Darth Vader clearly has a visible edge over Kaguya, anyway, even with speed equalized.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Yes, because Vader has quality and Kaguya doesn't

In all seriousness, it would be unfair to equalize speed because tier difference. It would be more fair if they were speed equalized with a character like Emperor Vitiate who can match Kaguya's AP and dura, which makes it a valid fight.

Vader still has tons of hax on top of his sword skills to fight with even if speed is equalized. Hell he could probably do the exact same strategy as people have been arguing before, only ths time he would have to do it while dealing with a counter attack of some kind. It's not like making vader speed the same as kaguya is going to result in her instantly making his head explode or something, shes going to be teleporting around, shifting the dimensions, and firing projectiles at vader who will... be trying to instantly transmute her from long range or whatever it is people have been saying.

 

[Volundox]

They aren't the same but you have to allow for them to accomplish similar things and have them be able to interact.

'genjutsu doesn't work because vader doesn't have chakra... but the force works on kaguya because lol reasons' was when this came up.

Well its a little hard to equalise between force and chakra since the force is omnipresent and charkra exists only within Kaguya's body.

 

[Dekoshu]

How about someone who isn't a Sith Lord whatsoever next time or anyone who doesn't have Darth in their title or name, if The Force is omnipresent, please?

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

They aren't the same but you have to allow for them to accomplish similar things and have them be able to interact.

'genjutsu doesn't work because vader doesn't have chakra... but the force works on kaguya because lol reasons' was when this came up.

Well its a little hard to equalise between force and charkra since the force is omnipresent and charkra exists only within Kaguya's body.
Chakra is in every living thing in naruto verse, including civilians who have no training and even plants and animals and there is also some just floating around in the air. Naruto is particular draws upon this ambient natural energy spirit bomb style to use his 'sage mode'. It's more reasonable and less boring to assume that both characters powers work in the chosen setting than it is to try and handwave away one or both fighters powers and essentially give one character a terrain advantage.

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

They aren't the same but you have to allow for them to accomplish similar things and have them be able to interact.

'genjutsu doesn't work because vader doesn't have chakra... but the force works on kaguya because lol reasons' was when this came up.

Genjutsu doesn't work because Vader has no chakra to manipulate. Vader can use the force on Kaguya because Vader can use the force (an omnipresent ability) on things that don't have midichlorians, therefore he can use the force on Kaguya even if she herself does not have the force.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Vader doesn't need chakra to be effected by chakra. Kaguyas chakra will go into vader and mess with the electrical impulses in his brain, causing him to percieve the world incorrectly. Since he doesn't have chakra I guess he can't sense this happening and won't even realize he's being decieved.

If his force powers do allow him to sense and fight against the chakra then that would show that chakra and the force are similar enough that kaguya can use it to resist vaders attempts to manipulate her with the force - and given that her AP is higher her power would be more potent so she would both be able to resist vaders manipulation and overpower vaders force empowered mental defenses.

 

[Volundox]

Well the two arent really comparable in the first place, all charkra exists within Kaguya's body, since she is effectively the 10 tails. This makes it so that charkra does not exist in all living things when she is used in battle, as SBA assumes that she is at her strongest and therefore has absorbed all of the charkra again.

Regardless of the actions of any force users attempts to drain the force from individuals or sever them from the force, the force is still omnipresent and exists within all things when a Star Wars character is used. So charkra exists within Kaguya and the force still exists everywhere when she is used in battle between the verses, Vader cannot have charkra since Kaguya has it all. If this is not the case, it should be stated in OP or otherwise assumed.

 

[Volundox]

Vader doesn't need chakra to be effected by chakra. Kaguyas chakra will go into vader and mess with the electrical impulses in his brai, causing him to percieve the world incorrectly. Since he doesn't have chakra I guess he can't sense this happening and won't even realize he's being decieved.
If his force powers do allow him to sense and fight against the chakra then that would show that chakra and the force are similar enough that kaguya can use it to resist vaders attempts to manipulate her with the force - and given that her AP is higher her power would be more potent so she would both be able to resist vaders manipulation and overpower vaders force empowered mental defenses.

1. Genjutsu works by manipluating charkra within the brain. If their is none to be maniplauted then it will not work.

2. She still has to infiltrate him with it, which she can never do due to speed difference, and even then its not guaranteed.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Chakra is clearly shown to be able to effect physical reality including random objects that don't have chakra like rocks as well as creating matter out of chakra from a range with for example earth style ninjutsu. In addition to direct mind hax (which I'm not buying the 'they don't have chakra' argument anyway), you can also bend light and alter sound waves and what not to create illusions outside of the brain.

This is all moot anyway since kaguyas method of fighting would be to warp them to a planet made entirely of lava or something similar so that vader would fall in while she floats around out of harms reach. It's probably the very first thing she would do followed closely by firing projectile attacks at vader as he falls or teleporting high up into the air where vader can't reach her without pulling her down - which she should be able to resist given that her AP is higher than vaders and her flight is powered by her chakra.

 

[Volundox]

Your use of reality is misleading. Chakra does not warp or alter reality. Chakra weilders can change their chakra to the affinity of a certain element and then use that chakra to manipluate that element. The element itself does not innately contain chakra. Star wars chracters don't have chakra it doesn't matter if you don't believe that. If they do then feel free to prove it. I do not recall a genjutsu of light waves ever being used please provide examples. Even auditory genjutsu enters the ears and then from there manipulates chakra in the brain. Chakra is needed.

Force users have walked on lava he will not simply fall in. Vader has intergalatic range within the force, being slightly higher than he is will not in anyway prevent him from using the force on her. And yes using the force he can just pull her down, charkra should have no effect on how someone reacts to the force, and a highter AP means nothing against telekinesis.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Yin-yang manipulation can create matter from nothing, to say nothing of all the techniques everyone throw around to create earth, fire, water, etc. from nothing but chakra in their attacks.

Kaguya is the one who gave people chakra. She could just give chakra to vader and then use it to manipulate him if she wanted to.

Lightning manipulation can be used to fry vader suit, without which he can't sustain himself.

Wind release techniques can be used to remove the air vader needs to breathe.

Nagato demonstrated the ability to pull and repel objects and people at using a much weaker version of the rinnegan.If you use your power to try and push something and it is pushed back by someone else who has more power, you're not going to be able to push it.

 

[Aparajita]

How about someone who isn't a Sith Lord whatsoever next time or anyone who doesn't have Darth in their title or name, if The Force is omnipresent, please?

Can you... re-state the question?

 

[Dekoshu]

How about someone else who isn't from the Dark Side or a Sith Lord who also wield such a control of The Force if it's omnipresent?

 

[Aparajita]

How about someone else who isn't from the Dark Side or a Sith Lord who also wield such a control of The Force if it's omnipresent?

Okay, i'll try to explain what i think if the answer.

The Force exists Omnipresent within the SW-Universe and Verse Equalization makes the Force exist within the Naruto Verse. There's no reason to think that the Force wouldn't be Omnipresent within the Naruto verse.

Any other questions?