Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade

[Shadowbokunohero]

Generally the calcs put them in the ballpark of Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic.

Of the accepted ones, we have a hypersonic calc from Maki considered, another hypersonic calc from Yuji, a high hypersonic calc from a guy who fought alongside megumi, and a massively hypersonic calc from Hikari from just two or three chapters before this one. Which gives us about four calcs which go against these statements surrounding Naoya.

I'm also confident that calcing Maki striking Naoya at his top speed, and a few other characters reacting to and defending Piercing Blood will produce results Supersonic and above.

IDK with all the statements and those calcs, the MHS one seems to stand out

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Honestly, I would like a rule to establish what matters more: The author's idea, or feats. This has been a debate many, many times, and we usually go to use the feats at the end of the day

• Yami being accepted as FTL even though he says he is unable to hit something that moves at the speed of light
• Garou canonically moving at hypersonic speed and yet speedblizin several Dragon Monsters
• NNT's characters being impressed by the speed of sound, even as they dodge lightning at morning

Honestly, I am not totally against the idea of author > feats

Even though this is an important debate, the one who created the thread really just want to downgrade the verse because yes, for pleasure. Nothing in the thread elaborates, does not explain or give an idea of a solution for a new speed level of the characters. He just wants to see chaos tbh

However, there are so many other things wrong with the pages that speed is not even the worst one.

 

[Shey]

Nope the statement “naoya has reached Mach 3”
Literally means she lost due to speed nothing else

It doesn't imply that she couldn't react to him at that speed.
Her bloodied on the floor is just indication she got overpowered not blitzed

As I've said before he don't see the moment of collision and it's just a guessing game with nothing truly certain except that she was overpowered
It's just a flat out statement on how fast he was
And for Naoya his power goes with his speed

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Honestly, I would like a rule to establish what matters more: The author's idea, or feats. This has been a debate many, many times, and we usually go to use the feats at the end of the day

We dont there are tons of scaling that rely solely on statements, it's a case to case thing where you have to argue which one is more appropriate to the verse your scaling.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't imply that she couldn't react to him at that speed.
Her bloodied on the floor is just indication she got overpowered not blitzed

As I've said before he don't see the moment of collision and it's just a guessing game with nothing truly certain except that she was overpowered
It's just a flat out statement on how fast he was
And for Naoya his power goes with his speed

All these are still your own speculation as far as anything is concerned

The narrator explicitly mentioned speed, meaning speed was the major factor. if you don’t like it well take it up with him not me.

 

[Shey]

All these are still your own speculation as far as anything is concerned

I didn't speculate anything, you did.

All I've been saying is that it's uncertain if she couldn't react

The narrator explicitly mentioned speed, meaning speed was the major factor. if you don’t like it well take it up with him not me.

Yeah, duh, speed is a factor in Naoya's power if don't remember you can check back at Chpt 151

 

[PrinceofPein]

I didn't speculate anything, you did.

All I've been saying is that it's uncertain if she couldn't react



Yeah, duh, speed is a factor in Naoya's power if don't remember you can check back at Chpt 151

And all I have been saying is the narrator implied speed was the major factor. Simple

 

[Sniper670]

I mean, this is author direct statement vs calcs here.... I feel the author words supercedes what fans have calculated

I mean, it's not as if the author was being 1:1 accurate when drawing panels, so a direct statement from him holds merit

 

[Tago238]

I don't think statements automatically trump feats but I think it helps when you make the argument "Maki's high hypersonic feat is dumb as hell".

 

[Gitagon]

Honestly, I would like a rule to establish what matters more: The author's idea, or feats. This has been a debate many, many times, and we usually go to use the feats at the end of the day

• Yami being accepted as FTL even though he says he is unable to hit something that moves at the speed of light
• Garou canonically moving at hypersonic speed and yet speedblizin several Dragon Monsters
• NNT's characters being impressed by the speed of sound, even as they dodge lightning at morning

Honestly, I am not totally against the idea of author > feats

Even though this is an important debate, the one who created the thread really just want to downgrade the verse because yes, for pleasure. Nothing in the thread elaborates, does not explain or give an idea of a solution for a new speed level of the characters. He just wants to see chaos tbh

However, there are so many other things wrong with the pages that speed is not even the worst one.

Most of the calcs here are inflated for literally almost every verse.

But honestly it is not just this site but the whole powerscaling community in general. We see how Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Black Clover, heck even comic characters like Spider-Man are seen by most powerscalers.

But if you read One Piece or Spider-Man comics for example, you know these characters are not even half as strong or as fast as powerscalers make them out to be.

 

[Chariot190]

Case by case imo.
If an author says "This dude can lift like 5 tons lmao", but he draws said dude benching a building, throwing a tank, and a bunch of wacky shit. In such a case like that, the author clearly doesn't know what he's doing and is just spouting shit and what we see > his contradictory intent. (Like I don't think anyone is gonna cap classic supes at transonic because he's stated a few times to be as fast as a bullet, while flying across the universe in about five seconds, and don't forget "peak human" Batman).

But if like there's a statement that's like "he can lift 2 tons lmao", but we have a 5 ton calc due to ripping a chain or something, yeah that's a case of the statement > calc, especially due to the somewhat roundabout method it's obtained.

Or like, if there's a anti-statement, but a bunch of blatant feats that contradict it ("This dude can only destroy a building!", but we literally see him blow apart whole city blocks or towns or some shit, multiple times at that. The feats are obviously more consistent). But if we have like ten statements saying "He can only output 1mj!", and we have a calc of the dude caving in a steel door that's like 3mj, yeah probably just take the statements.

It depends on the author, it depends on the context, it depends on the verse, it depends on how many times it's said, the situation it's said, when it's said, the character and those he scales to and what feats they have, how many and how often they have various feats, etc. And in some cases, other statements that contradict said statement and vice versa, etc.

There is no black and white answer, there never will be. Just use some common sense and keen judgement. As for JJK, lmao idk I don't know shit about it.

Edit: Opposite is also true fyi, like if an author says a dude is nuke level but he consistently struggles breaking walls and shit, the author can shut the **** up too.

 

[Shey]

There is no black and white answer, there never will be. Just use some common sense and keen judgement. As for JJK, lmao idk I don't know shit about it.

I recall you saying you would read it last year, I'm not sure but the memory is vague.
So how about it

 

[Chariot190]

MGS hours are real lad

I'll read it. Eventually, even if takes awhile. It took me till just recently to read CSM for example even though I said I'd do it like 10 months ago. Just whenever I have ample time.

 

[WrongIdea21]

if you read One Piece or Spider-Man comics for example, you know these characters are not even half as strong or as fast as powerscalers make them out to be

Can you be spesific wich Character in One Piece verse that not as fast/Strong as the real feats that Author shows in this wiki?

Edit : I'm sorry if this oot, but this need to be clarify.

 

[Sniper670]

Pretty sure there are blatant light speed+ feats in One Piece that do not require headcannon and calcs to reach a conclusion on

If anything at all, I'm impressed by how Oda can keep track of such a huge cast of characters, scaling-wise

 

[Swerzye29038]

Shocked as in how?

Why are you purposely being obtuse? You know good and well the intent of that statement, which was to convey that his speed has greatly surpassed their own.

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, this downgrade seems fine to me.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

If anything at all, I'm impressed by how Oda can keep track of such a huge cast of characters, scaling-wise

Joking aside im neutral

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I'm not sure about that, the author also showed Itadori having problems with attacks barely above sound, so there is a huge discrepancy between the author's intent and the conclusions of the calculations.

Yes, and the contradiction comes from the authors lack of understanding of how he has created a speed scale via feats. You are creating an artificial dichotomy between "fan calcs" and the author's work and that really doesn't add up. Gege is the one who decided on the feats and brought them to life via his art. Like I said, no matter how you slice it, Maki's BoS feats are at bare minimum supersonic+, and we have several other feats which cannot possibly be anything less than hypersonic (lightning and explosion feats).

Even relative fodder such as the Curtain user Gojo absolutely crushed was able to fight with Gakuganji who utilizes sound as his weapon. By this logic Gakukanji should be a top tier in the vs absolutely decimating other characters.

The most reasonable conclusion is that Gege doesn't understand the scale of speed he has created. Which means we either retroactively ignore the several feats well > supersonic from multiple points in the series (beginning of series, and most recent chapters) to give this statement precedence, or we remain consistent with the internal speed scale and chalk it up to author mistake. The latter seems far more reasonable given the precedence in the series.

 

[Chariot190]

If they're consistently whipping out and have a good number across the manga itself, with them being blatant mach feats, including things that nobody in their right mind would somehow mistake as being mach (As in, no wacky calc inflation or numbers you'd only get by being overly analytical, shit you'd have to be actually dumb as shit to not realize is mach speed. Like dodging lightning or explosions point-blank. Things you'd have to be actually ******* insane to not understand is mach).

Then I'm leaning on the author just spouting shit or simply thinking mach speed is actually way higher than it actually is, on par with infamous 100 ton Marvel statements, for dudes like The Hulk or Thor.

But I also haven't read most of this so idk for sure.

 

[Sniper670]

What's the rush? Speed is never a factor in a match if that's the concern. It rarely has any use beyond just looking cool on their profile

Theres no reason why we just can't wait for more stuff from the series, then it gets upgraded accordingly. Iirc there has not been any direct inference to speed until now besides calcs from analyzing panels, so we cannot say Mach 3 is false

No rush at all imo

 

[PowerToScale]

Here is my explanation. According to the most recent chapter, cursed Naoya can reach a peak speed of Mach 3 (supersonic+), making him supersonic in his cursed womb (immature) form. Maki also refers in this chapter that human Naoya reached the speed of sound. So, his speed can be distinguished clearly as:

Human Naoya: Speed of Sound

Cursed Womb: Supersonic

Complete Curse: Supersonic+

While this appears to be a good, it raises questions about discrepancies with other showings of the series and calculated feats, which has brought us to this point in the discussion about whether the to disregard or he author should take precedence over and ignore the discrepancies.

Feats:

Spoiler: Feats

So the first issue is feats, this one is the common one. Current feats have contradicted the Mach scaling.

Maki was able to respond and deflect a gunshot that was only a few inches away from her face in this case. Being quick enough, sweep it aside. This demonstrates Maki's ability to respond, move at Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds, and deflect projectiles in the BoS. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.

Not only that, but early in the fight Maki reacts to and cuts bullets that are being fired at her from close range at supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from quite close ranges and potentially avoids being hit (I say potentially because Mai could have missed, but it does have speed trails in the scene she moved and dodged it).

Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.

Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the supersonic+ ranges.

Yuji dodging Piercing Blood is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions. The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" implying it to slow down after its been fired. However, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji.

Yuji at the very beginning of the series reacts to a curse, resulting in subsonic speeds, only two times slower than Human Naoya's top speed.

There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire and young Geto blocking bullets. Uraume reacts and blocks to Piercing Blood with it breaking the sound barrier inches from their face. I've haven't used attacks speeds like Hanami's Tree as they aren't characters reacting to them, although still showcase speed feats above sound. However, they haven't been calculated yet. There's also a casual Naoya reacting Piercing Blood.

Inconsistent Showings:

Spoiler: Inconsistent Showings

Inconsistent showings are showings that would be in consistent or contradictory, although it's excluding calculated feats. Throughout the series, from beginning to know there have been showings that contradict the idea of the Mach scaling that has recently come up. I'll be listing them and why they are inconsistent:

Juzo reacts to sound: In chapter 52, Juzo is able to react and fend off sound strikes from Yoshinobu Gakuganji, a sound-based attacker. Subsonic jjk speeds being viewed fast impressive are made inconsistent. Naoya's peak speed (sound) is made superior to all inconsistent a one off character reacted to sound earlier in the series.

Yuji reacting the Piercing Blood: Even at speeds of just 1 m/s, Yuji can still perceive the attacks at supersonic speed at the beginning. Since his perception is supersonic, Naoya perception blitzing Yuji while being casual, although his top speed is the speed of sound.

Kamo reacting to Naoya (Curse): One of the characters, Kamo, finds human Naoya's speed to be rather astounding. However, despite being blitzed by a supersonic cursed womb, Kamo responds and blocks Naoya (complete curse) without using his "red scales" until after the fact.

Sound characters aren't viewed as impressive: Sound characters aren't seen to be really amazing; this sort of relates to the earlier inconsistency with Juzo's reaction to them. The point of this argument is that characters (outside of Gojo) whose speeds are comparable to the top speeders are viewed as nothing exceptional and are demonstrated they can be reacted and blocked. It seems clear that Gege has forgotten how he previously wrote his characters.

Misc:

Spoiler: Misc

The first is Infinite Hakari's MHS achievement. This is in the miscellaneous category as in my opinion, only other god tiers that are equivalent to Infinite Hakari can scale to him. This would be yet another feat that conflicts with Mach 3 if you think Naoya is faster.

Another miscellaneous argument is that the author's treatment of powers is inconsistent. This argument really only rests on the author's lack of comprehension, as evidenced by the author's implementation of his 2.5^ increase in power via black flash and forgetting that it becomes obsolete if people have a power of one, as well as his inability to properly explain Gojo, necessitating editors' hiring of mathematicians to do so.

Gege plainly forgot past feats like bullet timing and reacting to piercing blood, as well as things like older characters reacting to sound. It is extremely evident that Gege just just had the idea of speed of sound scaling. Even if you think Mach scaling is accurate, it would be controversial to claim there aren't any contradictions. Even if I support feats and showings, the wiki needs to determine which is preferable.

 

[Chariot190]

What's the rush? Speed is never a factor in a match if that's the concern. It rarely has any use beyond just looking cool on their profile

Don't forget, matches are just a "fun" side thing. The actual purpose of the wiki is to index characters and powers/abilities/stats for them.

Having an accurate speed is more important than having a match.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

What's the rush? Speed is never a factor in a match if that's the concern. It rarely has any use beyond just looking cool on their profile

Equalized speed is a cancer, you know

Besides the fact that matches are not even close to being the most important factor in a revision

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I like profiles looking cool.

“Fan calcs” still use author material for their calculations

I understand the narrative contradicts but if Maki dodged light and the narrative still insisted she did so at Mach 3 then it’s an obvious writing flaw.

I am neutral, heavily leaning towards disagreeing.

 

[Damage3245]

Wouldn't the option that requires less assumptions tend to be better?

A fan-calc, while trying to be as reliable as possible, still has to make some assumptions for it to work.

The manga telling us "This character, Maki, couldn't react properly to a Mach 3 attack" is a lot more direct and has a lot less assumptions involved.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Wouldn't the option that requires less assumptions tend to be better?

A fan-calc, while trying to be as reliable as possible, still has to make some assumptions for it to work.

The manga telling us "This character, Maki, couldn't react properly to a Mach 3 attack" is a lot more direct and has a lot less assumptions involved.

No. Occam's razor isn't applicable here at all, and the proposed conclusion of this thread would be doing the opposite as we would have to throw away a litany of feats to support one statement.

On-panel feats are much more direct than an author statement that is blatantly internally inconsistent, in addition to the author self-admittedly not being the most knowledge regarding these things in the manga.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Wouldn't the option that requires less assumptions tend to be better?

Yes, obviously, and that's why it's complicated. We probably have more than 10 feats above Mach 3. If we use the author's logic, we will have to consider that everything is an outlier, that everything is simply inconsistent with the story.

We will have to basically discard all calcs of the currently accepted feats and only use those that basically appear in two panels and don't even have a highlight

It's a case of narrative shown (Feats) versus narrative written (Statements).

It's not as simple as "Wow, plot." Several people have already explained it here

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Also, I have always been curious as to why so many people show up in downgrade JJK threads, but in rework threads, no one shows up

 

[Damage3245]

Downgrade threads tend to be controversial in general so they attract more attention.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Also, I have always been curious as to why so many people show up in downgrade JJK threads, but in rework threads, no one shows up

̶m̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶3̶ ̶J̶u̶j̶u̶t̶s̶u̶ ̶k̶a̶i̶s̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶i̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶n̶

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Downgrade threads tend to be controversial in general so they attract more attention.

Yes, and that's why the JJK pages still suck. People do massive revisions for the verse, putting references and scans in every sentence, and yet no one shows up, even if you call a staff member to comment. But when a person just shows up for seconds, the same one that have never commented on a verse revision, writes a poorly thread that doesn't even have the effort to establish some solution for a new speed rating, gets more attention than any current JJK thread

 

[FanSyst]

Yes, and that's why the JJK pages still suck. People do massive revision for the verse, putting references and scans in every sentence, and yet no one shows up, even if you call a staff member to comment. But when a person just shows up for seconds, the same one that have never commented on a verse revision, writes a poorly thread that doesn't even have the effort to establish some solution for a new speed rating, gets more attention than any current JJK thread

 

[Deceived3596]

Yes, and that's why the JJK pages still suck. People do massive revision for the verse, putting references and scans in every sentence, and yet no one shows up, even if you call a staff member to comment. But when a person just shows up for seconds, the same one that have never commented on a verse revision, writes a poorly thread that doesn't even have the effort to establish some solution for a new speed rating, gets more attention than any current JJK thread

Life's a bitch huh.

<Insert Buff Luigi picture>

 

[Xxiaa]

Disagree. There’s obvious implications of higher speed which is also accepted by the wiki. Gege is also notoriously bad at his mathematical explanations even saying he chose “natural negative numbers” instead of “negative numbers” For Satoru’s explanation because he can explain it away with
excuses.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Wouldn't the option that requires less assumptions tend to be better?

A fan-calc, while trying to be as reliable as possible, still has to make some assumptions for it to work.

The manga telling us "This character, Maki, couldn't react properly to a Mach 3 attack" is a lot more direct and has a lot less assumptions involved.

you can’t just dismiss numerous feats that are obviously above Mach 3. It’s simply a flaw in writing that contradicts the obvious feats shown in the verse.

The logic of less assumptions being the best option can not be applied here because you’re literally deeming numerous feats as outliers when they clearly aren’t.

If you insist we follow what the manga tells us then this verse should be upgraded to solar system level from what the manga told us about black flash. Iirc there is a rule against such so why do we pick and choose what manga statements to follow?

 

[Damage3245]

If you insist we follow what the manga tells us then this verse should be upgraded to solar system level from what the manga told us about black flash. Iirc there is a rule against such so why do we pick and choose what manga statements to follow?

I sincerely doubt that the manga tells us that the Black Flash is Solar System level.

 

[Andytrenom]

How many feats above mach 3 are there

This is really close to the CW Flash situation where his stated speed is Mach 3.3 but his feats are much greater

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I sincerely doubt that the manga tells us that the Black Flash is Solar System level.

something about ^2.5 multiplier. Anyway, I’m neutral. I don’t really care.

Edit: i heard Itadori scales to 1.2 kilotons now so it’s around moon level with black flash based off raising Itadori’s strength by the power of 2.5. ^2.5 is gotten from author on Black Flash

 

[Dr._whiteee]

How many feats above mach 3 are there

This is really close to the CW Flash situation where his stated speed is Mach 3.3 but his feats are much greater

A couple of handfulls, in fact several from the same character in question in a much weaker state. None of the calcs are under supersonic.