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Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

I know I said I’m done but Actually 0.013 is a standard Young Adult’s perception in good lighting
We as the audience have perception around there

Also imo the 0.01 seconds for Todo already obliterates the consistency of the 1/24
How can characters who can think and react in 0.01 seconds suddenly get blitzed in 0.04?

I’ve already explained my opinion on Gojo dodging or not so I won’t mention that
Per the article, 0.013 is a high-end, which is believed to be influenced by the participants getting more experience reacting to progressively faster images, and getting feedback on their performance. It can be significantly lower in casual and normal circumstances.

If Todo has 0.01 seconds to react, this means that the projectiles almost touching him, and he couldn't dodge when they were further away, are Subsonic.
Also, the 1/24 s gives us low showings and anti-feats. This does not mean that there are zero better speed feats, but it demonstrates there are plenty of low showings and anti-feats.
What you mentioned is not neccessarily a contradiction as he gets blitzed by movement that happens within 0.04 s, and it is possible to get out of view in less time than 0.04 s.

You know that the experiment with 0.013 seconds was used with normal humans, right? The article didn't even mention if it is only peak human beings who are able to see these seconds. Literally the first paragraph of the site:
  • Imagine seeing a dozen pictures flash by in a fraction of a second. You might think it would be impossible to identify any images you see for such a short time. However, a team of neuroscientists from MIT has found that the human brain can process entire images that the eye sees for as little as 13 milliseconds — the first evidence of such rapid processing speed.
The research refers to normal humans like you and me. You apparently didn't even check the calculations and the study
Yes, they involve normal humans, which is why I said "Peak Human" (maximum limit for real world humans), and not "Superhuman".

You should read the articles you link more thoroughly before arguing about them.
Potter believes one reason for the subjects’ better performance in this study may be that they were able to practice fast detection as the images were presented progressively faster, even though each image was unfamiliar. The subjects also received feedback on their performance after each trial, allowing them to adapt to this incredibly fast presentation. At the highest rate, subjects were seeing new images more than 20 times as fast as vision typically absorbs information.

Massive headcanon. What is hard to accept that Todo simply thinking in 0.01 seconds?
Not any bigger than your headcanon. Which one is the high-end and which one is the low-end?

The thinking was finished in 0.01 seconds. It's the same reasoning as snail speed. I am calculating the complete thinking time, it is literally the same logic as the other calculations I showed, but you didn't read apparently
i agree that the decision was done in 0.01 s. Is Aoi false memories relevant to his reaction speed? Doesn't seem to be the case for me.

The first frame only shows the floor
Screenshot_20210609-142032.png
Screenshot_20210609-142043.png
The frames are zooming out, not doing a rotational movement from the floor. So we are seeing the building + the bright green of the kicked-up dust at the top.

.... Lol no
Didn't think about converting cinematic time to real time. Nonetheless both of us are wrong in this point since the timeframe is similar. The point of dispute remains: the distance Yuji moved before the claw can finish attacking.

  • Meteor ablation occurs when a meteor travels through the Earth's atmosphere and the aerodynamic pressure of the surrounding atmosphere surpasses the material strength of the object. This generates heat from atmospheric entry and breaks up the object, causing it to lose mass.
You will note that the meteor at its tip is taking damage with this scan, which is caused by speed. So
Meteor ablate due to heat. So the meteor would take damage simply by being set on fire via. pyrokinesis.

Gojo didn't dodge, he jumped because yes. You know how infinity gets when Jogo's attack hits Gojo, it gets fire fragments or smoke, in this case of the explosion there is no fragmentations


If I can run 10000 meters in 1/24 I am not subsonic, for example. We don't know the actual speed of when they move in 1/24 seconds..
And you know that 1/24 (0.08 sec) is peak human level, right?
No matter how we spin,
0139-016.png
0139-017.png

This is not 10000 m.
The technique creates lots of anti-feats. It is as simple as that.

1/24 is 0.04167 actually.
Again, not saying that better speed feats can't exist, but the technique by its very nature and design creates lots and lots of anti-feats, and it is considered top-tier speed.

If I run 1000 in 1/24 seconds I am not subsonic. Do you know how far they have run? No, you don't know. The FPS ability consists of the characters moving within 24 parts of 1 second, but we don't know how far they go with that. If they can move for example 500 meters with the FPS ability, the speed is going to be 12000M/S. It is not stated that in each movement they use and need exactly 1/24 seconds, it is even stated otherwise, with Naoy saying he will "Upping the speed" (Chapter 138). Basically, they can run at X speed using the 1/24, to find out X you need to find out the distance to the limit, which is impossible with the recent information

Actually we do.
0139-017.png
0151-012.png



Show me Naoya moving 500 m 1200 m in one frame, then we'll discuss these hypotheticals. From what we see they are moving a handful of meters per frame.

Yes each movement is completed in exactly 1/24 s.
0111-012.png
0111-013.png


There is a limit to the acceleration the technique allows, so he will have to gradually increase his speed by gradually increasing the distance he is moving. Notice that he needs to follow the rules of trajectory, so he can't run circles around a frame; he needs to roughly run straight to it.

And you don't know how much Naoy exceeded the subsonic speed, simple.
From the narration we know that he didn't surpass it before going for maximum speed, and that merely surpassing subsonic speed is dangerous for Maki. If you have evidence from the narration that he massively surpassed subsonic speed, provide it.


That is extremely odd when it looks quite tall on both these pages
It’s radius and even height is a little inconsistent as expected but overall it’s portrayed as big
Also idk why in the comments of your blog it’s being claimed to be hollow (Saying that you have to prove it isn’t hollow)
The walls surrounding it don’t look hollow at all outside of where the tunnel holes are
Small relatively to what is claimed. What is claimed is that the crater is ~40 m deep. Or around 23 times the height of Yuji.

Hollow as in they broke the ceiling of an underground sewer canal/tunnel. There are thin debris with smooth surfaces on both sides.

Are those stairs????? top panel mid section
They definitely look like stairs
If so maybe they can be used to determine height
  1. If they are stairs then the area was mostly hollow.
  2. Mahito is basicly touching the wall. Why not scale his height to the height of the wall? The wall certainly doesn't look ~40 m tall.
 
Per the article, 0.013 is a high-end, which is believed to be influenced by the participants getting more experience reacting to progressively faster images, and getting feedback on their performance. It can be significantly lower in casual and normal circumstances.

If Todo has 0.01 seconds to react, this means that the projectiles almost touching him, and he couldn't dodge when they were further away, are Subsonic.
Also, the 1/24 s gives us low showings and anti-feats. This does not mean that there are zero better speed feats, but it demonstrates there are plenty of low showings and anti-feats.
What you mentioned is not neccessarily a contradiction as he gets blitzed by movement that happens within 0.04 s, and it is possible to get out of view in less time than 0.04 s.


Yes, they involve normal humans, which is why I said "Peak Human" (maximum limit for real world humans), and not "Superhuman".

You should read the articles you link more thoroughly before arguing about them.
Potter believes one reason for the subjects’ better performance in this study may be that they were able to practice fast detection as the images were presented progressively faster, even though each image was unfamiliar. The subjects also received feedback on their performance after each trial, allowing them to adapt to this incredibly fast presentation. At the highest rate, subjects were seeing new images more than 20 times as fast as vision typically absorbs information.


Not any bigger than your headcanon. Which one is the high-end and which one is the low-end?


i agree that the decision was done in 0.01 s. Is Aoi false memories relevant to his reaction speed? Doesn't seem to be the case for me.


The frames are zooming out, not doing a rotational movement from the floor. So we are seeing the building + the bright green of the kicked-up dust at the top.


Didn't think about converting cinematic time to real time. Nonetheless both of us are wrong in this point since the timeframe is similar. The point of dispute remains: the distance Yuji moved before the claw can finish attacking.


Meteor ablate due to heat. So the meteor would take damage simply by being set on fire via. pyrokinesis.





No matter how we spin,
0139-016.png
0139-017.png

This is not 10000 m.
The technique creates lots of anti-feats. It is as simple as that.

1/24 is 0.04167 actually.
Again, not saying that better speed feats can't exist, but the technique by its very nature and design creates lots and lots of anti-feats, and it is considered top-tier speed.



Actually we do.
0139-017.png
0151-012.png



Show me Naoya moving 500 m 1200 m in one frame, then we'll discuss these hypotheticals. From what we see they are moving a handful of meters per frame.

Yes each movement is completed in exactly 1/24 s.
0111-012.png
0111-013.png


There is a limit to the acceleration the technique allows, so he will have to gradually increase his speed by gradually increasing the distance he is moving. Notice that he needs to follow the rules of trajectory, so he can't run circles around a frame; he needs to roughly run straight to it.


From the narration we know that he didn't surpass it before going for maximum speed, and that merely surpassing subsonic speed is dangerous for Maki. If you have evidence from the narration that he massively surpassed subsonic speed, provide it.



Small relatively to what is claimed. What is claimed is that the crater is ~40 m deep. Or around 23 times the height of Yuji.

Hollow as in they broke the ceiling of an underground sewer canal/tunnel. There are thin debris with smooth surfaces on both sides.



  1. If they are stairs then the area was mostly hollow.
  2. Mahito is basicly touching the wall. Why not scale his height to the height of the wall? The wall certainly doesn't look ~40 m tall.
Dude if they are stairs that debunks it being any two time yuji's height.
 
Per the article, 0.013 is a high-end, which is believed to be influenced by the participants getting more experience reacting to progressively faster images, and getting feedback on their performance. It can be significantly lower in casual and normal circumstances.

If Todo has 0.01 seconds to react, this means that the projectiles almost touching him, and he couldn't dodge when they were further away, are Subsonic.
Also, the 1/24 s gives us low showings and anti-feats. This does not mean that there are zero better speed feats, but it demonstrates there are plenty of low showings and anti-feats.
What you mentioned is not neccessarily a contradiction as he gets blitzed by movement that happens within 0.04 s, and it is possible to get out of view in less time than 0.04 s.


Yes, they involve normal humans, which is why I said "Peak Human" (maximum limit for real world humans), and not "Superhuman".

You should read the articles you link more thoroughly before arguing about them.
Potter believes one reason for the subjects’ better performance in this study may be that they were able to practice fast detection as the images were presented progressively faster, even though each image was unfamiliar. The subjects also received feedback on their performance after each trial, allowing them to adapt to this incredibly fast presentation. At the highest rate, subjects were seeing new images more than 20 times as fast as vision typically absorbs information.


Not any bigger than your headcanon. Which one is the high-end and which one is the low-end?


i agree that the decision was done in 0.01 s. Is Aoi false memories relevant to his reaction speed? Doesn't seem to be the case for me.


The frames are zooming out, not doing a rotational movement from the floor. So we are seeing the building + the bright green of the kicked-up dust at the top.


Didn't think about converting cinematic time to real time. Nonetheless both of us are wrong in this point since the timeframe is similar. The point of dispute remains: the distance Yuji moved before the claw can finish attacking.


Meteor ablate due to heat. So the meteor would take damage simply by being set on fire via. pyrokinesis.





No matter how we spin,
0139-016.png
0139-017.png

This is not 10000 m.
The technique creates lots of anti-feats. It is as simple as that.

1/24 is 0.04167 actually.
Again, not saying that better speed feats can't exist, but the technique by its very nature and design creates lots and lots of anti-feats, and it is considered top-tier speed.



Actually we do.
0139-017.png
0151-012.png



Show me Naoya moving 500 m 1200 m in one frame, then we'll discuss these hypotheticals. From what we see they are moving a handful of meters per frame.

Yes each movement is completed in exactly 1/24 s.
0111-012.png
0111-013.png


There is a limit to the acceleration the technique allows, so he will have to gradually increase his speed by gradually increasing the distance he is moving. Notice that he needs to follow the rules of trajectory, so he can't run circles around a frame; he needs to roughly run straight to it.


From the narration we know that he didn't surpass it before going for maximum speed, and that merely surpassing subsonic speed is dangerous for Maki. If you have evidence from the narration that he massively surpassed subsonic speed, provide it.



Small relatively to what is claimed. What is claimed is that the crater is ~40 m deep. Or around 23 times the height of Yuji.

Hollow as in they broke the ceiling of an underground sewer canal/tunnel. There are thin debris with smooth surfaces on both sides.



  1. If they are stairs then the area was mostly hollow.
  2. Mahito is basicly touching the wall. Why not scale his height to the height of the wall? The wall certainly doesn't look ~40 m tall.
Holy shit, I completely forgot about this

Anyway, I've lost the will to argue about this and it seems that no one so far has changed their mind. Do you still consider this debate productive?
 
Holy shit, I completely forgot about this

Anyway, I've lost the will to argue about this and it seems that no one so far has changed their mind. Do you still consider this debate productive?
Nope, it is going no where.
I kind of think staff opinion is the only way this can properly resolve, unfortunately as we cant convince each other
 
Well most of the calcs illustrate that this technique isn't the fastest thing in the verse. But given how calcs can ignore the narrative of the speed of the verse, this may come down to a downgrade for the verse since Maki will likely be considered an outlier, Yuji's several supersonic calcs will probably be disregarded and we'll have Subsonic High Tiers. Nice.
 
Well most of the calcs illustrate that this technique isn't the fastest thing in the verse. But given how calcs can ignore the narrative of the speed of the verse, this may come down to a downgrade for the verse since Maki will likely be considered an outlier, Yuji's several supersonic calcs will probably be disregarded and we'll have Subsonic High Tiers. Nice.
So if we did go with Subsonic for the High tiers except Gojo
Would that mean literally only Gojo would be massively hypersonic if that is the path taken if so then. (Regardless seemingly Jogo jumped at a similar time/speed to Gojo’s casual jump in regards to the explosion Calc)
Lmao
 
So if we did go with Subsonic for the High tiers except Gojo
Would that mean literally only Gojo would be massively hypersonic if that is the path taken if so then. (Regardless seemingly Jogo jumped at a similar time/speed to Gojo’s casual jump in regards to the explosion Calc)
Lmao
I cant even process the amount of flack the jjk pages would get :ROFLMAO:
 
I cant even process the amount of flack the jjk pages would get :ROFLMAO:
It would just look weird imo to have Gojo’s casual speed which other characters can perceive and try to react to but aren’t allowed to scale to it because Gojo is the fastest and 1/24 Sorcery means everyone else has to be Sub or Transonic
But that’s an argument from disbelief or whatever its called so it being weird as hell isn’t an argument in of itself
 
This has been discussed for more than 2 pages and no one has changed their minds yet (This discussion is also extremely boring). This was basically a "Content Revision" thread. I will summarize everything to make it easier to understand
  • Arguments for subsonic
    • Naoy is said to have exceeded subsonic speed and at the same time was faster than Maki's vision. And then Naoy breaks through a sound barrier, showing that he just went beyond sound at that moment. And since this is considered incredible by the narrator, this shows that it is something difficult for common characters (Like Maki, who is a powerfull character at this point)
      • 既に亜音速を超えている直哉に対し
      • For Naoya who has already exceeded the subsonic speed
    • The fastest sorcerers have a cursed technique that divides the movement into 24 (1/24 seconds). With this same cursed technique, the characters are able to go beyond the vision of the main characters, which makes the subsonic consistent
    • With a massive low-end the calculations do not exceed subsonic+ speed
    • The studies that show that human vision is for peak human only, and therefore cannot be used as a character that disappears from the page
    • Anime cannot be used because it disrupts consistency
Agreed with this: @ShadowWhoWalks, @ItalianDudewithDogPictureIWhoIForgotTheName
  • Arguments for above than subsonic
    • The statement is "Who had already had already surpassed subsonic speed". "Had" past tense. Meaning that well before the statement or the attack in the moment, he had surpassed sub-sonic speeds, not in the moment of the statement or the attack. Not only that but he was becoming faster and faster. All the statement means is that sometime in his earlier speeds he had surpassed sub-sonic. And knowing he is getting faster and faster he is now blitzing Maki who is hypersonic. Nothing contradictory. The statement also never says other characters aren't above subsonic. (Text from @PowerToScale )
    • The cursed technique's distance limit is unknown, and therefore it is almost impossible to define the character's speed when he use this technique. If Naoy or even Naobito for example manages to use the technique over a distance of 500 meters the character won't take only 0.08 seconds to cross a few meters. But since the distance is unknown, the point is irrelevant
    • Just because the result is lower does not mean it is correct
    • Shadow still doenst explanation why
    • Akutami herself helped with the anime timeframe
    • Subsonic is not consistent
Agreed with this: @LIFE_OF_KING @Nelliels @Jackof_noTrades068 @Milly_Rocking_Bandit @PowerToScale @Muuuuh @Cyberblader90 @KingTempest

Now a mod will have the context
 
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Amazin'

Will steelman the points:

Surpassing subsonic speed is a characteristic of Naoya gradually building up his speed using his Innate Technique to the maximum; this is his maximum effort. He was blitzing her long before he did this. The mere fact that he surpassed subsonic speed is a problem for Maki; how much he exceeded it is unknown (though if he needs to go through that much effort in order to move ~15 meters with his technique, then this doesn't bode well), nonetheless we know that exceeded subsonic speed is a problem for Maki (note: almost all characters are slower than Maki).

The distance Naoya needs to move in order to blitz powerful and fast fighters is known.
0139-017.png
0151-012.png

A few meters is all he needs.

The technique creates plenty of low showings and anti-feats (again, not saying that it is impossible for better speed feats to exist), nonetheless claiming that he is moving 500 meters is pure fantasy; if he was moving so much distance in a straight line (since the technique doesn't allow large changes to trajectory) we would've known.


Per the wiki's page on Outliers:
However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.
If taking the low-end methods of the calcs reduces the number of outliers, then the low-ends should be taken.


The anime can contain differences in how the feats happen; the argument isn't about meta-consistency, it is that such depictions (Maki bullet catch being an example) contradict the manga instead of just adding additional context, and is therefore lower on the canon hierarchy.
 
Stop with this shit, dude.

This has already been finalized with a mod, we argued (For more than 2 pages, with no one changing their mind), it was decided, simple. If we continue this it will be something without end
 
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The anime can contain differences in how the feats happen; the argument isn't about meta-consistency, it is that such depictions (Maki bullet catch being an example) contradict the manga instead of just adding additional context, and is therefore lower on the canon hierarchy.
The manga version of the Maki Calc I’m pretty sure is still Supersonic even with the 60m/s for slow rubber bullets

Just give it a rest man It has been decided already I even am fine with 1-2 of your points but just stop
Its not productive
 
Thinking back now, he simply explained the point in a better way, so I guess ok. If he wants to call KingTempest (Or Danage) again, whatever
 
This topic is open since 2019 lol. The priorities and users have changed, so is it better to create a new thrad?
I wouldn’t be opposed to a new thread tbh
But ever since the forum move most pages have stuck to the same discussion thread like the OPM one can’t believe that’s over a 100 pages.
 
Yeah, I don't know if it's necessary to create a new. But with a new one it would be easier to note what was finished and what was not.

Anyway
 
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Yeah, I don't know if it's necessary to create a new. But with a new one it would be easier to note what was finished and what was not.

Anyway
Should calc the crater kenjaku made with uzumaki just give more support to a certain tier.
And Im guessing the Island lvl Kenjaku isn't being accepted?
 
Should calc the crater kenjaku made with uzumaki just give more support to a certain tier.
And Im guessing the Island lvl Kenjaku isn't being accepted?
It wouldn’t matter for Kenjaku since that was probably just Pulverization
Although I think Kusakabe tanked it so maybe it can scale to him
 
I know the discussion about Subsonic is over, but have someone ever stopped to think that if that happened the characters would also be tier 9 because Naoy said his attacks were KE? I thought this only now

Anyway, does anyone remember how many floors Itadori, Todo and Mahito were underground at the time of the fight?
 
I know the discussion about Subsonic is over, but have someone ever stopped to think that if that happened the characters would also be tier 9 because Naoy said his attacks were KE? I thought this only now

Anyway, does anyone remember how many floors Itadori, Todo and Mahito were underground at the time of the fight?
I believe b4 or b5 since Todo headed down to b5 with nitta then met Yuji
 
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I know the discussion about Subsonic is over, but have someone ever stopped to think that if that happened the characters would also be tier 9 because Naoy said his attacks were KE? I thought this only now

Anyway, does anyone remember how many floors Itadori, Todo and Mahito were underground at the time of the fight?
Personally I’m not sure about that point in the fight
But I remember Nanami was killed near A7
Not sure if it is a helpful indicator of depth but its something
 
Since it's not possible to use a HH+/MSH speed with the Piercing Blood for calculation, for reference, I think a waterjet assumption is fair (762m/s)
People will continue to have a problem with its statement about slowing down after initial launch. Can't really get passed that honestly. Best is just to use around sos than any far higher.
 
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