Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Ok, I'm surprised no one has commented in hours

Unfortunately, it was refeering specifically to Naoya (one of the fastest characters), after he was using Projection Sorcery to boost his acceleration as much as possible.

Literally irrelevant. It's the same thing like using Netero Prime who is said to "Have fists that surpass the speed of sound" and downgrading the verse because he is the fastest character

Surpassing subsonic speed is clearly not a common occurance if it requires a speed boost for one of the fastest characters, and merely surpassing subsonic speed is a major threat to current Maki.

Todo overcomes Megumi's vision and reactions with his speed (If you calculate the distance you will probably get a Supersonic result)

Random warriors manage to disappear from the reader's vision (See that they only ran after receiving the mission)

Megumi can only perceive Toji's movement when the attack is finished

Maki is clearly faster than the vision, reaction and perception of one of the strongest sorcerers in the Zenin clan with a single casual movement

Todo can elaborate an imagination with a dialog in 0.01 seconds

Yeah no. There are probably more examples, but mhe

It means that current Maki and current Yuji got blitzed by Naoya moving a few meters within 1/24 second..

Holy shit, Itadori atlethic level is not a joke. And seriously, why the hell does 1/24 have relevance here? 1/24 is advantageous regardless of speed

Basically

• Feats
  • Supersonic
  • Supersonic
  • Hypersonic+
  • High Hypersonic
  • Hypersonic+
  • Subsonic+
  • High Hypersonic
  • Todo imagine things out in 0.01 seconds
  • Random Warriors disappear from the reader's vision
• "Anti-feats"
  • "For Naoya who has already exceeded the subsonic speed"

Yeah no. I refuse to debate about it

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Pardon the intrusion, I would still like more input here.

 

[Arkenis]

Something to think about but Naoya does consider PB to be a frightening technique or at least something that shouldn't be allowed to be used when fighting a blood manipulator. So this would support it's speed being higher than just SOS after it's launch.
Now the other interpretation is that he's actually just slower than the sos but too many calcs go against that and so do other feats.
Would like opinions on it though.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Something to think about but Naoya does consider PB to be a frightening technique or at least something that shouldn't be allowed to be used when fighting a blood manipulator. So this would support it's speed being higher than just SOS after it's launch.
Now the other interpretation is that he's actually just slower than the sos but too many calcs go against that and so do other feats.
Would like opinions on it though.

It’s already concrete fact that that piercing blood is Above Sound after launch but it’s unquantifiable at what point it starts decelerating and how much
Just that at longer range it’s slower

Naoya can fight it at close range even when dashing in on him and when surprise attacked although he’d rather it not be used at all
So yeah piercing blood is just higher above the speed of sound

 

[Arkenis]

It’s already concrete fact that that piercing blood is Above Sound after launch but it’s unquantifiable at what point it starts decelerating and how much
Just that at longer range it’s slower

Naoya can fight it at close range even when dashing in on him and when surprise attacked although he’d rather it not be used at all
So yeah piercing blood is just higher above the speed of sound

Yea that's how I look at it, It's rate of slowing down probably isn't very noticeable.

 

[PowerToScale]

not only that but Piercing Blood isn't only limited to limited to just above sound as the more it's charged up the faster it is revealed by the fanbook/databook. Not only that but you could make the argument that the Piercing Blood fired at urahame (Ice person) is Mach 2 as there is a potential second shockwave.

 

[Arkenis]

there's like two noticeable ones

not only that but Piercing Blood isn't only limited to limited to just above sound as the more it's charged up the faster it is revealed by the fanbook/databook. Not only that but you could make the argument that the Piercing Blood fired at urahame (Ice person) is Mach 2 as there is a potential second shockwave.

 

[PowerToScale]

i forgot to mention its also stronger. The more it's charged the faster and stronger it is. Hence why its dangerous give Choso enough time to charge it, it would be too fast and strong for anyone

 

[Arkenis]

One before it gets to him and then one near his face

 

[PowerToScale]

One before it gets to him and then one near his face

yeah hence the Mach 2. Those two were the ones I was referring to

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Massively Hypersonic feat?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Massively Hypersonic feat?

MHS Todo reaction time and thinking speed
Epic

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I don't think you can calc how fast someone thinks and apply that to anything unless they fight someone who's stated faster than their thought or something

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I don't think you can calc how fast someone thinks and apply that to anything unless they fight someone who's stated faster than their thought or something

I'm pretty sure it scales to reaction time directly but yeah also if someone can blitz Todo it means they're that fast in terms of movement speed and combat speed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This is a feat of reaction that scales for Itadori.

Naoy is faster than Itadori's reaction

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

How is it reaction time? Todo made no movements in this time frame besides turning off his cursed energy. That's like saying I tensed a muscle or something in a short time frame and can therefor react at that speed.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

How is it reaction time? Todo made no movements in this time frame besides turning off his cursed energy. That's like saying I tensed a muscle or something in a short time frame and can therefor react at that speed.

Humans can consistently react faster at than they can think even intentional reactions. It isn't like Todo's thinking speed is obscenely higher because of an ability, its just his brain.
Maybe Perception is a better way to think of it tho. (If reactions still arent ok)

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Humans can consistently react faster at than they can think even intentional reactions. It isn't like Todo's thinking speed is obscenely higher because of an ability, its just his brain.
Maybe Perception is a better way to think of it tho. (If reactions still arent ok)

I think perception is a better way of describing it. Reaction sounds like he can make a meaningful movement in at that speed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Reaction sounds like he can make a meaningful movement in at that speed.

It doesn't work that way

• The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than its movement speed.
• Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

From speed page

 

[Arkenis]

Given his reaction being determined by his brain and his perception of the feat would go into reaction. Like he can think and therefore see in that timeframe. Also good support for scaling people like gojo and sukuna to mhs.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Literally irrelevant. It's the same thing like using Netero Prime who is said to "Have fists that surpass the speed of sound" and downgrading the verse because he is the fastest character

Not all comparable. Let me explain why the analogy is flawed:

1. The HxH statement was more than 60 years before the events of the series, where Netero was merely a student in a dojo who was frustrated by his physical limits, and it is likely that his dojo knew little to nothing of Nen (which is supposed to be a secret exclusive for those who pass the Hunter Exam), furthermore Netero's punch was preceded by prayer that takes a normal person around 5 seconds to perform. There is no indication that Netero was 'the fastest character' just after his mountain training, or that he was strong or fast enough to give a Phantom Troupe member a fight for example. On the other hand, Naoya is among the fastest in Jujutsu Kaisen by the time the statement was made, and he needed speed boosts to surpass subsonic.
2. Hunter x Hunter has clear-cut supersonic and above feats that can't be calc'd at subsonic, unlike Jujutsu Kaisen.
3. Saying that someone is having trouble because the opponent managed to surpass subsonic speed is much less vague than saying that the trouble is from an attack that surpasses the speed of sound.

Todo overcomes Megumi's vision and reactions with his speed (If you calculate the distance you will probably get a Supersonic result)

Actually tried to calculate a while ago. Subsonic, unless you use the high-end of subsonic perception which we have no reason to.

Random warriors manage to disappear from the reader's vision (See that they only ran after receiving the mission)

FTE speed usually starts at 34.3 m/s

Megumi/Toji and Maki/Ougi are vaguely subsonic and above for similar reasons to the above two cases.

Todo can elaborate an imagination with a dialog in 0.01 seconds

False memories being born in Todo's brain doesn't fulfill the conditions to count as reaction speed, and reaction speed doesn't neccessarily correlate to combat or movement speed. Furthermore, there is the problem of the buds being extremely close to Todo but being too slow to actually touch him within 0.01 secoonds; if they are so slow against supersonic opponents why didn't Yuji and Todo just get out of the way?

Holy shit, Itadori atlethic level is not a joke. And seriously, why the hell does 1/24 have relevance here? 1/24 is advantageous regardless of speed

Actually that would be Subsonic level Yuji.
1/24 s to cross a handful of meters is disadvantegous if we are talking about speeds above sound.

---

Anyways, the speed feats are extremely generous in assumptions; lets go over them:

Feats

1. Supersonic
2. Supersonic
3. Hypersonic+
4. High Hypersonic
5. Hypersonic+
6. Subsonic+
7. High Hypersonic

1: Uses anime time frame, and the anime doesn't even show us the tree growing; it just zooms out to the tree which has already grown (hence there is a greenish cloud of dust at the very first frame)
2: It assumes that when Yuji jumped back, it was so fast that the Cursed Spirit was incapable of seeing him jump back, but there is no evidence of this (not even a comment that Yuji is fast).
3: It assumes that the meteor is on fire due to its speed, instead of being on fire because Jogo using fire-themed abilities.
4: Anime time frame, and the anime version contradicts the manga version.
5: The size of the door/stairs is drawn inconsistently. But if we pixel scale the door using the same panel used for angular sizing, the distance would actually be a bit less than half the one used in the calc. This allows a subsonic interpretation, though the feat is likely above that.
6: Just Subsonic at low-end.
7: The manga version appears to be an underground eruption rather than a normal a normal explosion. And it is possible for Gojo to have no-sold it instead of dodge, just like he no-sold Jogo's other attacks instead of dodging them.

Anti-feats

• The reason Piercing Blood is considering dangerous is because it has an initial speed that surpasses sound.
• Naobara blitzing Dagon by moving a few meters within 1/24 s.
• Kenjaku stating that conventional weapons, like guns and sniper rifles, are useful when attacking Sorcerers.
• Naoya blitzing Choso and Yuji by moving a few meters within 1/24 s.
• Naoya blitzing Maki by moving a few meters within 1/24 s.
• Naoya stated to have managed the (un)impressive feat of surpassing subsonic speed only after he decided to use the maximum speed boost he is capable of.

It doesn't work that way

• The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than its movement speed.
• Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

From speed page

From the reactions page:

Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of. A series of movements in similar timeframes makes this combat speed, so this term should only be applied for a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles. When measured in terms of a single movement of often undefined, small distance, humans have displayed between 300 millisecond (below average human) to 100 millisecond (peak human) reactions. Autonomous body reactions for humans can also reach as high as 40 milliseconds, but this is oftentimes inapplicable to reaction speed and shouldn't be used.

 

[Arkenis]

• Naoya stated to have managed the (un)impressive feat of surpassing subsonic speed only after he decided to use the maximum speed boost he is capable of.

It says he had already surpassed it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It says he had already surpassed it.

Let him create the imaginary consistency

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It says he had already surpassed it.

Yes, I mentioned this fact among others.

 

[Arkenis]

Naoya can blitz people who are, going by the low ball, subsonic+ at his base speed (Choso and Yuji), then he enhances his speed and is breaking the sound barrier. That is something pb does, breaking the sound barrier means you're above the sos, a fatigued maki reacts to this. Therefore a full healthy maki (one not bleeding from her guts) would scale above this. So even if we go by subsonic prior speed to Naoya, the consistency falls apart when you realize this isn't a fully healthy maki which makes this fall apart due to Full speed naoya~fatigued maki<Full health maki>ogi=naobito>those random subsonic feats. The verse just doesn't follow this subsonic speed narrative you are trying to push for it. All due to one statement. @ShadowWhoWalks

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Uses anime time frame, and the anime doesn't even show us the tree growing; it just zooms out to the tree which has already grown (hence there is a greenish cloud of dust at the very first frame)

Nope the anime shows it grows
It’s just extremely fast
Coupled with seemingly a Sonic boom effect (To emphasize and make it look cooler but you get my point)
Plus the manga has no timeframe and it’s better than assuming
“These characters are superhuman therefore 0.08 seconds since they didn’t react until it was grown”
In fact I think using anime timeframes nerfs it

Just Subsonic at low-end.

Yeah but the Projectile being baseline subsonic makes way more sense because of FTE movements from slower things
Plus it’s supposed to be faster than Hanami’s big structures

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

“These characters are superhuman therefore 0.08 seconds since they didn’t react until it was grown”
In fact I think using anime timeframes nerfs it

I checked anime timeframe is 0.12 seconds
It would literally be faster if we used baseline superhuman reaction time and faster if we used peak human reaction time 0.1 seconds

 

[Arkenis]

Another thing, this weird objection to using anime is extremely biased, the anime is being run by Gege for a majority of stuff, and also be redone in his image since certain things were missed in the manga, so things happening differently in anime should not necessarily be ignored or discarded. If a feat is shown more explicit then the use of it is fine.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Another thing, this weird objection to using anime is extremely biased, the anime is being run by Gege for a majority of stuff, and also be redone in his image since certain things were missed in the manga, so things happening differently in anime should not necessarily be ignored or discarded. If a feat is shown more explicit then the use of it is fine.

Exactly the anime fills in gaps and makes things more clear
People use them for more clarity of feats, timeframes and making calculations easier all the time for so many verses

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Not all comparable. Let me explain why the analogy is flawed:

I'm not going to answer topic by topic, otherwise this will turn into a HxH discussion too. So I'll use a another example

Polnareff has one of the fastest stands in the verse, and he sentence to be slower than speed of light, even though he has calculations above the speed of light

Actually tried to calculate a while ago. Subsonic, unless you use the high-end of subsonic perception which we have no reason to.

I am 98% sure that you did not use the correct timeframe

FTE speed usually starts at 34.3 m/s

Nope, that is extremely wrong. It is accepted that human FTE is 0.013 (77m/s) seconds in various calculations. 34 meters per second is not the human limit, I can see a bullet train for example, which moves at 40m/s.

Red Line = 182pxl | 1.7
Blue Line = 220pxl | 2.05494505495
Speed = 2.05494505495/0.013
Speed = 158.072696535m/s (Subsonic+)

Yeah well, apparently random warriors are faster than Naoy

False memories being born in Todo's brain doesn't fulfill the conditions to count as reaction speed, and reaction speed doesn't neccessarily correlate to combat or movement speed.

I want to know when I said that he scales to speed of movement.

Furthermore, there is the problem of the buds being extremely close to Todo but being too slow to actually touch him within 0.01 secoonds; if they are so slow against supersonic opponents why didn't Yuji and Todo just get out of the way?

You know how the wiki works, you need to use a Low-End for 101% of the calculations, as an example here. You need to use a small speed to calculate the higher speed, otherwise it will be calculation stacking, which as you know, sucks. Boku No Hero calculations for example use the same method, superhuman character attacks, assume a low speed to calculate the higher speed

1/24 s to cross a handful of meters is disadvantegous if we are talking about speeds above sound.

We don't even know how far they can run when using the 1/24

Anyways, the speed feats are extremely generous in assumptions; lets go over them:

Intelectus

1: Uses anime time frame, and the anime doesn't even show us the tree growing; it just zooms out to the tree which has already grown (hence there is a greenish cloud of dust at the very first frame)

... Bruh

In the anime, I check the storyboard with the parapalmist and the person in charge and leave the rest to them. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure if it's because of Shukurei, Gojyo, or the fact that Torajan isn't ordinary. You can choose what you like. The reason Gojo smashed it in the realm was because of a meteor that Le Coral fired as a small test. I'm not sure what to make of it. I like the way Leaky Coral's line sounds like Lao Watanabe.

Akutami herself check the timeframe

Self explanatory

2: It assumes that when Yuji jumped back, it was so fast that the Cursed Spirit was incapable of seeing him jump back, but there is no evidence of this (not even a comment that Yuji is fast).

That's not even use this calculation method. I used this same method

3: It assumes that the meteor is on fire due to its speed, instead of being on fire because Jogo using fire-themed abilities.

Wrong as well. Is not via fire

4: Anime time frame, and the anime version contradicts the manga version.

I already answered

5: The size of the door/stairs is drawn inconsistently. But if we pixel scale the door using the same panel used for angular sizing, the distance would actually be a bit less than half the one used in the calc. This allows a subsonic interpretation, though the feat is likely above that.

The door is not inconsistent, there is only one scene with a decent angle. But half the distance? Alright, I will reduce the distance by 5 times

Distance = 3.2 meters
Speed = 3.2/(1/220)
Speed = 704m/s

Supersonic

6: Just Subsonic at low-end.

... There is nothing to answer

7: The manga version appears to be an underground eruption rather than a normal a normal explosion. And it is possible for Gojo to have no-sold it instead of dodge, just like he no-sold Jogo's other attacks instead of dodging them.

For some reason, the anime is usable now. But no, it is just an explosion, Gojo himself says its an explosion. Like, what is the point of it being a volcanic eruption if the attack comes from an insect in the air?

Anti-feats

• The reason Piercing Blood is considering dangerous is because it has an initial speed that surpasses sound.

As already discussed in a previous thread, the Piercing Blood does not affect the scale

• Naobara blitzing Dagon by moving a few meters within 1/24 s.

Irrelevant about the 1/24. We don't know how many meters they can run using when 1/24. And it was said that they can increase their speed, so 1/24 is not the limit

• Kenjaku stating that conventional weapons, like guns and sniper rifles, are useful when attacking Sorcerers.

Sorry, but and? Only if you say that we will also downgrade the characters to 9-C

• Naoya stated to have managed the (un)impressive feat of surpassing subsonic speed only after he decided to use the maximum speed boost he is capable of.

Again, irrelevant. We don't even know how many times he is above Subsonic

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Naoya can blitz people who are, going by the low ball, subsonic+ at his base speed (Choso and Yuji), then he enhances his speed and is breaking the sound barrier. That is something pb does, breaking the sound barrier means you're above the sos, a fatigued maki reacts to this. Therefore a full healthy maki (one not bleeding from her guts) would scale above this. So even if we go by subsonic prior speed to Naoya, the consistency falls apart when you realize this isn't a fully healthy maki which makes this fall apart due to Full speed naoya~fatigued maki<Full health maki>ogi=naobito>those random subsonic feats. The verse just doesn't follow this subsonic speed narrative you are trying to push for it. All due to one statement. @ShadowWhoWalks

Breaking the sound barrier requires rapid use of Projection Sorcery to keep accelerating himself unnaturally. But he just used it once to move a few meters within 1/24 s. That is objectively subsonic.
The low-ball is Subsonic, not Subsonic+. And we can't upscale to casual Naoya to Transonic/Supersonic either. There is not enough evidence to claim that Maki at full health is faster than Naoya, especially since he was blitzing her with normal use of Projection.

Nope the anime shows it grows
It’s just extremely fast
Coupled with seemingly a Sonic boom effect (To emphasize and make it look cooler but you get my point)
Plus the manga has no timeframe and it’s better than assuming
“These characters are superhuman therefore 0.08 seconds since they didn’t react until it was grown”
In fact I think using anime timeframes nerfs it

Watched it frame by frame; the kicked-up dirt is already floating from the first frame, and the camera just zooms out and moves upwards. Moving the frames along until the camera more clearly shows us the wood growth, doesn't mean that we went through the frames of wood bursting forth from the ground.
Megumi and Noritoshi weren't paying attention to their surrounding (rushing and screaming at each other), so don't think we can use a reaction timing either.

Yeah but the Projectile being baseline subsonic makes way more sense because of FTE movements from slower things
Plus it’s supposed to be faster than Hanami’s big structures

Ok agreed with subsonic for the spike. Though if we use a bending calculation, which should be more accurate, Todo would only be slightly faster.

---

The anime is less reliable the statements from the manga about what the speed is. And while there is no issue with using the anime to fill the gaps, anime adaptions can sometimes make changes to how a feat was done.

 

[Arkenis]

This is hilarious

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Watched it frame by frame; the kicked-up dirt is already floating from the first frame, and the camera just zooms out and moves upwards. Moving the frames along until the camera more clearly shows us the wood growth, doesn't mean that we went through the frames of wood bursting forth from the ground.
Megumi and Noritoshi weren't paying attention to their surrounding (rushing and screaming at each other), so don't think we can use a reaction timing either.

If the actual growth is too short to be shown in a single frame and it really is just zooming out then it happened in 0.04 seconds that boosts the feat it’s not like there’s no timeframe or that time was skipped.

Doesn’t matter if you are rushing at someone else and not paying attention
If I was running at someone and suddenly a gun was fired it would take my focus immediately but I wouldn’t be able to turn my head the instant it left the barrel for obvious reasons.

They didn’t even reflexively react to it, if your argument as to why is that they didn’t get to hear it is because it was too fast then it was faster than sound.
Which loops into anime timeframes being consistent again.

All them not looking means it can’t be assumed to have perception blitzed them.

But ok I’m done
I’ll let staff/mods actually decide this topic in another thread
Because it’s circular and goes no where

If staff say the verse for the most part is subsonic off the statement I’ll accept it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Polnareff has one of the fastest stands in the verse, and he sentence to be slower than speed of light, even though he has calculations above the speed of light

Shadow is about to realize that the arguments for Jojo MFTL is the same as for Jujutsu Hypersonic

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Shadow is about to realize that the arguments for Jojo MFTL is the same as for Jujutsu Hypersonic

Let’s downgrade Jojos to Subsonic off the 300km/h statement or something

 

[Arkenis]

And before a travel speed calc comes out to supersonic downgrading every prior feat

Shadow is about to realize that the arguments for Jojo MFTL is the same as for Jujutsu Hypersonic

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Let’s downgrade Jojos to Subsonic off the 300km/h statement or something

Yes, why not? It's logic. This feat? Obviously it was a rubber bullet. Think about consistency and make a massive low-end

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Nope, that is extremely wrong. It is accepted that human FTE is 0.013 (77m/s) seconds in various calculations. 34 meters per second is not the human limit, I can see a bullet train for example, which moves at 40m/s.

Red Line = 182pxl | 1.7
Blue Line = 220pxl | 2.05494505495
Speed = 2.05494505495/0.013
Speed = 158.072696535m/s (Subsonic+)

Yeah well, apparently random warriors are faster than Naoy

Whoa I actually missed this
This actually made me laugh lol

 

[Arkenis]

Whoa I actually missed this
This actually made me laugh lol

Outlier.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Now seriously, is it possible to scale the explosion calculation from Gojo to Jogo? Jogo followed Gojo's movement