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How do i contradict myself? not a moment before or after means before or after that microsecond timeframe
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JJK - The Speed Ceiling
- Thread starter Arkenis
- Start date
- Status
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Smh
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This is a staff thread. Why useless comments arent being deleted (You can delet this one too)
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The manga doesn't have a statement as to why the black flash is impossible. If it did it'd be used in your very lean OP which is substantially lacking in scans and just points in general for a site rule which will substantially limit the verse.
That quite literally doesn't support or even alluded to the reason that blackflashes being impossibly is speed related. In fact, this points towards the blackflash being more about state of mind then just speed.
I still stand by without more overt support this not being a good idea to make a cap for the verse
The fact a site rule is being opposed in be first place is weird as well because why does this need a site rule? We don't make site rules proactively like this, nor do we make such specific ones without it causing a problem for the staff at large. This shouldn't be a staff discussion in the first place
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We normally rely on translator on the site for such things in the first place, but secondly that still isn't making it a matter of speed, Tempest. Staying due to the circumstance doesn't explain the specifics of why this is impossible, which is the main fault of the argument made here. It makes the assumption the only possible reason for this is because characters are too slow to react.
I say that we don't have enough proof to make this an undeniable rule that has to be set by site rules for the verse.
I say that we don't have enough proof to make this an undeniable rule that has to be set by site rules for the verse.
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You really wanna wait days for a translator just to repeat the same thing this thing says?
We can deduce reasonings.
If a mf says "I can't tag them", are we gonna sit down and say "we don't know why they can't tag them?", or would we just go by the default assumption, "they're probably too fast to be tagged"
This is easily deducible.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,081
- 7,869
- Thread starter
- #208
Don't really need any other scan besides the BF one.
Idk what else to tell you, I show you guys that in order to hit bf you need an impact of ce to flow within the timeframe Gege provided for us of one's physical hit.
You bringing up "state a mind" does not address that concentration is what's needed to get to that state of mind aka the character needs to focus to an extreme degree to the point they might pull off the impact in the timeframe. One's state of mind in battle will and does influence their speed and accuracy as we see Yuji being able to time his ce flow with the physical hit.
To prevent the needless future CRTs for new speed calcs when someone makes a speed calc that gets anything higher than MHS without them addressing BF blatant speed cap. Idk why this would be an issue, we already have general rules for speed calcs like calc stacking and perception values that are disallowed for blitzing feats, this is just a rule for a big verse that has contention within the speed scaling. Also here Tokyo's Revengers with a discussion rule for speed calcs as well just to show you this isn't something unnecessary.
EldemadeDityjon
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Really bad example as TR speed Scaling was discussed in multiple threads and got rejected that's why they created a rule. You are trying to push a rule
This is how many threads they have discussed the topic.
Sorry you can delete my message afterwards but can you ping the staffs again who are participating in this thread and agreed without even knowing there has been no CRT made for MHS+ and higher scaling.
They should recheck what's in the OP. We don't create discussion rules on whim. OP even using TR discussion rule as example which caused atleast 5 different threads with 30 pages of debate where as JJK has zero threads for what's OP is proposing.
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Mf the Hakari timeframe is MHS+ and higher
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,916
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I mean Perception and Reaction speed are different things
His reaction speed is still MHS only so don't see the problem.
Take Rimuru for example he has different perception and reaction speed.
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My problem here really is that this isn't conclusive enough to have a discussion rule made over it. You're not trying to argue against any upgrade or anything like that, you're literally making an argument to prevent an argument that has not occured from being possible or just that much harder for any supporters who wish to attempt it, and this is not at all the way to about it. We don't make discussion rules like this, we shouldn't make discussion rules like this because what it does is make the process of any potential future speed upgrade CRTs that much more complicated and time consuming. This has caused no problem for the wiki, it has caused no issue with the staff at large, this is not a topic for discussion rules right now. And even if it was, this isn't good enough evidence to try and make a hard rule, which would need to be overturned by another staff thread in at least 3 months, in order to address it just to try and make further changes. Your OP only has one scan and while further more scan have been provided throughout, none of this has gone through the proper channels to try and make a discussion rule out of it. Even more than that and my bigger problem is that you're trying to take your viewpoint on the scaling of speed and the verse and make it a hard rule, and that's a gross misuse of discussion rules.
This thread is one that shouldn't be entertained in any capacity right now.
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It's not a matter of "their viewpoint," Gege just decided to put in a microsecond timeframe for when Cursed Energy has to be applied to do a Black Flash and then went on to state no one can do it at will. That's as blatant of a cap as it gets
Also, five evaluating staff members have approved the rule, so I wouldn't exactly agree that "this shouldn't be entertained in any capacity." A number of people are in fact willing to entertain it
Also, five evaluating staff members have approved the rule, so I wouldn't exactly agree that "this shouldn't be entertained in any capacity." A number of people are in fact willing to entertain it
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It is very much a matter of a viewpoint, because we have no direct statements outlining this as a speed cap. Again, the reasons as to why no one can do this at will is not explained nor explored, not a single scan given so far at all gives any clear statements on this. And if we're making a discussion rule about, we should have require far more evidence before we do it.
And just because staff members are willing to entertain this, that doesn't make this a correct usage of discussion rule creation.
And just because staff members are willing to entertain this, that doesn't make this a correct usage of discussion rule creation.
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Except it is a correct usage... Otherwise it would've been called out by our staff as not a correct usage beforehand.
Serlock_Holmes
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Sorry for intruding. Has death of the author stopped being a thing?
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I'm not sure I am meant to be commenting here but something confuses me. If no sorcerer can do it at will because of they can't infuse cursed energy at that speed then the few times they do does it mean in the heat of the moment the hit their top speed or what?
Also the people voting for black flash to be based on speed will you also agree to vote for a "mhs+ with black flash" rating for people that use it on their profile ?
Also the people voting for black flash to be based on speed will you also agree to vote for a "mhs+ with black flash" rating for people that use it on their profile ?
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,081
- 7,869
- Thread starter
- #219
You aren't allowed to comment here unless you ask a mod, so your comment might get deleted but I will respond to this since its a thought I also had.
Take a game where you have to "hit" something to get a reward, like a slot machine. Imagine the slot machine has 3 spins, but each spin requires you to do something different to get 7, in BF case your first spin you need to have extreme concentration, the second spin you need precision in timing, and the third spin you need that dawg in you. The sorcerers already have one 7 (extreme concentration), but they're tryna go for another 7. In order to hit this next 7 they need precision, but since no one has that precise timing at will, it all ends up becoming chance that they hit it.
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This isn’t a case of death of the author and frankly that term is used very liberally and has pretty much boiled down to “I don’t personally like this scaling statement from the author so I’ll just ignore it”
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I believe the staff tally is the same as it is in the OP currently, plus Duedate disagreeing with the OP
So as far as evaluating staff goes, it's 5 agreeing vs. 1 disagreeing
So as far as evaluating staff goes, it's 5 agreeing vs. 1 disagreeing
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My crt has nothing to do with reaction speed for characters its just attack speed for em waves
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If I understand what your saying it’s becuase sukuna was shown reacting to them twice right? Well then that would be an outlier just like how haku has ls attack speed on here even though naruto dodged then and shigaraki also has ls attack speed via radio waves yet Deku somewhat reacted as well so the reaction is just an outlier but the attack is still light speed
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,081
- 7,869
- Thread starter
- #229
Okay I was gonna go against this but that's fine ig, it's not too important but that does strike an issue with us accepting its speed but not accepting the reactions. Also the Haku example I'm pretty sure Haku wasn't using the LS movement speed and I dont know about the deku thing but Deku's rated as rel on page so there's that.
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The Naruto example is so wrong and I'm pretty sure Deku is Sub-Rel now so it wouldn't be an outlier
Also
Stop bringing up other verses
Also
Stop bringing up other verses
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Then in verse kenjaku reacted to a black holes gravitational polarity after it was in affect and dispatched an anti gravity barrier that would be a good example of an outlier like sukunas no?
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You don't get a rating for reacting to black holes that you resist the pull of.
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I wasn’t aware that we could just propose discussion rules for arguments that don’t exist yet. Good to know.
Also @Firedragon7755 Kashimo’s attack speed of a natural electricity based phenomenon (aside the other accepted natural electricity based phenomenon; lightning speed) is fine. This rule should not affect attack speed since that has nothing to do with reaction speed.
Also @Firedragon7755 Kashimo’s attack speed of a natural electricity based phenomenon (aside the other accepted natural electricity based phenomenon; lightning speed) is fine. This rule should not affect attack speed since that has nothing to do with reaction speed.
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Agree with the speed cap & Discussion Rule.
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I am aware. But at the end of the day this is a preventive measure rule. This should’ve been solely used as counter argument to be brought up for future threads, not a whole discussion rule to prevent future threads from ever being made.
I have always understood that discussion rules were made to stop discussions that have already been discussed over and over again. So to see a discussion rule accepted on topics that haven’t even extensively discussed is an eyebrow raiser. This is the same reason why proposals like @PrinceofPein ‘s Fire Force discussion rule on proposal to end upgrades past a certain tier was rejected. And I hope after this is accepted that it becomes standard practice cuz I don’t wanna see any double standards when someone else tries to use a good counter argument at the time to prevent users from making future arguments on site to begin with.
Keep in mind I strongly agree with the argument presented in the OP. The black flash timeframe is a cap in speed for the typical JJK sorcerer. I just don’t think it should be a discussion rule to limit freedom of speech and expression. I believe discussion rules should be reserved for multiple recycled debunked arguments.
Feel free to apply the rule. I only typed this so you can understand my thought process.
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My 2 sense on this discussion is that if the verse does indeed Cap at 0.000001 perception speed someone could argue that reaction speed cant be capped at that as it’s more automatic reflexes unlike perception speed which black flash is all about as sorcerers have to be in a state of flow to pull off a black flash. An example would be like a baseball players or other sports athletes reflex speed is marginally faster than their perception when their nerves create fast movement while not being conscious about them and since it’s fiction one can get away with higher reaction speed feats that exceed their perception but it won’t be easy but I won’t get into that myself
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Couldnt you argue that applying CE accurately is much more difficult than say, dodging an attack? Nanami says that when ur in the zone manipulating CE becomes as easy as breathing, implying that its otherwise a much more complex task. Now obviously I cant demonstrate the extent of its complexity but I feel like its a fair argument cuz Gege should know that EM waves travel at Light speed.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,081
- 7,869
- Thread starter
- #239
coordinating, processing, assessing, and deciding are complex tasks, especially when we’re arguing these characters move and combat one another at these extreme speeds so Bf can be complex, but it’s fundamental action is ce flow. And Gege knowing that Em is ls does not matter.
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Yeah but its entirely possible that CE flow in general is much more difficult than basic movements like dodging or wtvr. Then, applying CE 0.0001 seconds after a hit would be ludicrously hard even if the user is fast enough to react to that time frame. Imo the series doesnt really as a speed feat, but more so as a CE control feat, so arguing that sorcerers being unable to perform BF equates to them being unable to react to said timeframe is a bit unfair no?
The sukuna EM thing : I just feel like it would be weird for Gege to cap the series at whatever speed when he clearly shows them reacting to LS attacks. Then again, he did recently cap Naoyas speed at mach 3 so idk.
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