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JJK - The Speed Ceiling

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KingTempest said:
Nobody is saying speed alone is the determining factor.

If their speed was high enough, then even with their average CE control, they would be able to do it
Click to expand...
If speed alone isn't a determining factor, then this has no basis being a cap for speed. If you were to ask me a really simple math question (like 7x7) I can do that really quick, but I can react much faster. Black flash is a level of control most sorcerers can't even dream of and stands as one of the pinnacles of CE control.

So it really wouldn't make sense for Yuji to not be able to control basic CE, despite reactions >>> the base requirement, yet for black flash (the pinnacle of control) it suddenly becomes purely related to motor speed. Based on the evidence, one could theoretically trump the BF timeframe similar to how Yuji does with the basic CE requirement as still struggle to coordinate the flow vs your own kinesthetic reaction (both of which are two different things).

Your point is true though, if the average person were MHS in the JJK verse, then we would indeed expect Blackflash to be more plentiful in the verse, but I don't think that point leads to the conclusion of it being a verse gap, especially when we have people like Nobara doing it. If anything it's just more support for most of the verse being under MHS (not the profiles, the legit toll of the characters in verse). A cap would indeed need to be founded on something much more solid, especially with lightning and light feats existing. If the former thing is your issue, then I suggest just making an outlier thread to ban the feat until more consistency is achieved.
 
Found it.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc.
Click to expand...
However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary of continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions.
Click to expand...
This thread is pushing an rule even before single thread was made for MHS+ or above scaling.
 
Last edited:
EldemadeDityjon said:
Found it.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com


This thread is pushing an agenda even before single thread was made for MHS+ or above scaling.
Click to expand...
Don’t start saying people are pushing agendas

And I double checked the OP, it’s restricting MHS and above actually, not MHS+

You yourself have made a MHS JJK thread.
 
KingTempest said:
Don’t start saying people are pushing agendas
Click to expand...
Why don't we go by wiki policy then and if multiple threads pops up do the rule instead of already pushing it without even a single CRT out.
KingTempest said:
And I double checked the OP, it’s restricting MHS and above actually, not MHS+
Click to expand...
This is what OP proposing.
I am proposing a discussion rule essentially barring the acceptance of calcs for JJK characters for anything mhs+ and higher.
Click to expand...
KingTempest said:
You yourself have made a MHS JJK thread.
Click to expand...
So MHS > MHS+ and higher?
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Just to make it easier, BF's timeframe is in the Mach 2915 territory
Click to expand...
wait really??? I thought it was much lower... OKAY this changes the scaling completely. This CRT is basically me getting rid of the mhs scaling entirely. I'll update the OP
 
We already established BF as the basis isn't even necessarily valid anyway, and BF has been performed by the likes of Nobara, which makes the idea of those speeds being unattainable dually invalid. The timeframe also being < BF makes the original intention of OP and blackflash related speedcapping pretty moot. I think it's time to go back to the lab and whip up a different thread to address the topic.
 
KingTempest said:
It's faster by a hair. It's like saying Mach 1 is slower than Mach 1.5
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the supernovas being faster than half of the speed of light and yet being blitzed by Borsalino dozen of maters away is fine uh

Its not as the author are calculating the timeframe of every scene to see if the the things are consistent, but as long as the limit isnt passed, its all fine.
Beside, we have also the skill issue point

EDIT: Last comment btw. Already give my irrelevant input
 
Dr._whiteee said:
If speed alone isn't a determining factor, then this has no basis being a cap for speed. If you were to ask me a really simple math question (like 7x7) I can do that really quick, but I can react much faster. Black flash is a level of control most sorcerers can't even dream of and stands as one of the pinnacles of CE control.

So it really wouldn't make sense for Yuji to not be able to control basic CE, despite reactions >>> the base requirement, yet for black flash (the pinnacle of control) it suddenly becomes purely related to motor speed. Based on the evidence, one could theoretically trump the BF timeframe similar to how Yuji does with the basic CE requirement as still struggle to coordinate the flow vs your own kinesthetic reaction (both of which are two different things).

Your point is true though, if the average person were MHS in the JJK verse, then we would indeed expect Blackflash to be more plentiful in the verse, but I don't think that point leads to the conclusion of it being a verse gap, especially when we have people like Nobara doing it. If anything it's just more support for most of the verse being under MHS (not the profiles, the legit toll of the characters in verse). A cap would indeed need to be founded on something much more solid, especially with lightning and light feats existing. If the former thing is your issue, then I suggest just making an outlier thread to ban the feat until more consistency is achieved.
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand the point of the issue at hand.

Black Flash requires characters to apply cursed energy less than a microsecond from the impact. This is a timeframe issue.

Yuji before applied the energy then struck with it, but then later he started to apply cursed energy right when it struck.
He needed to do it within 0.000001 seconds of said impact. The issue is that he couldn't do it at will. No one can.

Databook elaborates.
"Due to its circumstance there is no sorcerer able to exert it at will"
Because of the circumstance that causes it to happen, the small timeframe, nobody can do it at will.

For a MHS character, this would be easy. The average arm length is about 0.76 meters long. Punching at around Mach 2000 and you'd have a large distance to utilize in order to push CE through your body to hit it at the "last moment".

Yuji would end up accomplishing a Black Flash every time he struck if he moved that fast. Same for everybody else.

The entire concept of sorcerers using Black Flash is skill and luck because they aren't fast enough to do so.
A person could theoretically tag a speed of sound attack irl if they were skilled enough to time it, and it requires skill because they're naturally too slow to tag it.

Black Flash does not need skill. It needs the mechanic of imposing CE in a certain timeframe. For sorcerers, that timeframe is insanely high, which is why it's a random timeframe that needs focus and concentration.

You and everyone else keep bringing up people like Nobara using it. That doesn't prove anything. It means she was lucky enough to use Black Flash. You keep saying Nobara used it but it means nothing. Circumstances that elevated her focus beyond the norm allowed her to use it because she was ridiculously focused.

Why do you think she never uses it again?

It's a luck thing because they suck too much for it to be an easy speed thing.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Yeah, but the supernovas being less than half of the speed of light and yet being blitzed by Borsalino dozen of maters away is fine uh
Click to expand...
Idk why you guys love to bring up other verses and then be completely wrong about their damn scaling mechanics. It's embarassing atp. Just stick with 1 verse
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Its not as the author are calculating the timeframe of every scene to see if the the things are consistent, but as long as the limit isnt passed, its all fine.
Click to expand...
That's stupidity
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Beside, we have also the skill issue point
Click to expand...
Saying "skill issue" for a timeframe issue is just cope.
 
KingTempest said:
Black Flash requires characters to apply cursed energy less than a microsecond from the impact. This is a timeframe issue.

Yuji before applied the energy then struck with it, but then later he started to apply cursed energy right when it struck.
He needed to do it within 0.000001 seconds of said impact. The issue is that he couldn't do it at will. No one can.

Databook elaborates.
"Due to its circumstance there is no sorcerer able to exert it at will"
Because of the circumstance that causes it to happen, the small timeframe, nobody can do it at will.

For a MHS character, this would be easy. The average arm length is about 0.76 meters long. Punching at around Mach 2000 and you'd have a large distance to utilize in order to push CE through your body to hit it at the "last moment".

Yuji would end up accomplishing a Black Flash every time he struck if he moved that fast. Same for everybody else.

The entire concept of sorcerers using Black Flash is skill and luck because they aren't fast enough to do so.
A person could theoretically tag a speed of sound attack irl if they were skilled enough to time it, and it requires skill because they're naturally too slow to tag it.

Black Flash does not need skill. It needs the mechanic of imposing CE in a certain timeframe. For sorcerers, that timeframe is insanely high, which is why it's a random timeframe that needs focus and concentration.
Click to expand...
I already debunked this notion earlier.

I disagree with this notion on the basis of Yuji. He's pretty much the best representative example we have regarding watching someone go from no cursed energy to cursed energy, and he began from a higher baseline stat-wise then most sorcerers. Despite that, his "superhuman speed" did not help him control and coordinate his cursed energy. So based on this, we can clearly see speed alone is not the determining factor, or else Yuji would have been able to master regular control extremely easily.

So it really wouldn't make sense for Yuji to not be able to control basic CE, despite reactions >>> the base requirement, yet for black flash (the pinnacle of control) it suddenly becomes purely related to motor speed. Based on the evidence, one could theoretically trump the BF timeframe similar to how Yuji does with the basic CE requirement as still struggle to coordinate the flow vs your own kinesthetic reaction (both of which are two different things).

Your point is true though, if the average person were MHS in the JJK verse, then we would indeed expect Blackflash to be more plentiful in the verse, but I don't think that point leads to the conclusion of it being a verse gap, especially when we have people like Nobara doing it. If anything it's just more support for most of the verse being under MHS (not the profiles, the legit toll of the characters in verse). A cap would indeed need to be founded on something much more solid, especially with lightning and light feats existing. If the former thing is your issue, then I suggest just making an outlier thread to ban the feat until more consistency is achieved.
Click to expand...
Nobara achieving the feat is icing on the cake. You're blatantly special pleading here by saying "the verse can't achieve a certain level of speed, except when it does reach that level speed based on the same criteria we are using for the speed cap in the first place."

It's literally special pleading and circular logic.

And before you bring up the "randomness" aspect, no it is no way akin to just randomness. In every instance of black flash the user goes into "the zone" and we literally see the user in an extreme state of concentration, combined with the fact that those who experience once have "transcendent" understanding of CE application, would indeed imply some level of user skill, even if subconscious. The sample size and specificity would also make no sense, especially for those who've done such in succession.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
I already debunked this notion earlier.
Click to expand...
You did not debunk it at all. All you did was mention that he was fast before but he had shit CE.
You're fighting invisible battles.

Yuji before would input CE then strike. That ****** him up.
Later he would strike then input CE, which is needed for Black Flash

The steps are this
Punch -> Put CE -> Put CE less than a microsecond after impact -> Black Flash
Yuji did this
Put CE -> Punch -> Put before impact -> No Black Flash
Dr._whiteee said:
Nobara achieving the feat is icing on the cake. You're blatantly special pleading here by saying "the verse can't achieve a certain level of speed, except when it does reach that level speed based on the same criteria we are using for the speed cap in the first place."
Click to expand...
Nobara did not reach that level of speed. At all. She got lucky and managed to put CE at a certain moment which was coincidentally the moment needed for Black Flash
Dr._whiteee said:
It's literally special pleading and circular logic.

And before you bring up the "randomness" aspect, no it is no way akin to just randomness. In every instance of black flash the user goes into "the zone" and we literally see the user in an extreme state of concentration, combined with the fact that those who experience once have "transcendent" understanding of CE application, would indeed imply some level of user skill, even if subconscious. The sample size and specificity would also make no sense, especially for those who've done such in succession.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about.
The "randomness" aspect I spoke about was the random timeframe Gege chose for Black Flash
KingTempest said:
which is why it's a random timeframe that needs focus and concentration.
Click to expand...
You're arguing with a wall that's not even there
 
KingTempest said:
You did not debunk it at all. All you did was mention that he was fast before but he had shit CE.
You're fighting invisible battles.

Yuji before would input CE then strike. That ****** him up.
Later he would strike then input CE, which is needed for Black Flash
Click to expand...
I just pointed out how your conclusion is founded upon two major fallacies which you didn't address.

I already provided the panels. Yuji's reactions were too fast and since he was a novice, his fist hit the target before the cursed energy did. Which means the coordination is not solely based on speed, but the complex process of utilizing cursed energy flow.
KingTempest said:
The steps are this
Punch -> Put CE -> Put CE less than a microsecond after impact -> Black Flash
Yuji did this
Put CE -> Punch -> Put before impact -> No Black Flash
Click to expand...
Correct, and what you aren't getting is that Reaction speed and application of CE are not based on the same thing and thus not equitable. CE flow is a constant thing that sorcerers must maintain throughout a battle and Todo explicitly says that speeding up the flow alone is not enough to get a coordinated flow. So ou're argument is just trying to be extremely reductive by making "Put CE less than a microsecond after impact" into something that should be equated to a person's reaction speed,p which doesn't make sense given your own logic since since one would have to punch and extend there own arm in a coordinated fashion at the opponent before even beginning the process of timing the MHS.

Here is the full transcripton of the explanation of divergent fist and cursed energy flow
Your divergent fist stems from the cursed energy flow left behind by your superhuman speed.”⇒ (…) is born from a delay which doesn’t normally occur - when the speed of your cursed energy can’t catch up to the speed of your superhuman physical abilities”

“Then why is your cursed energy delayed? It’s because of how you’re flowing cursed energy.”⇒ “So then why does a delay in cursed energy occur? It’s because cursed energy is something you ‘circulate’.”

Y:“Weren’t we talking about increasing the speed of flow?
Click to expand...
”T:”Most sorcerers have to consciously make cursed energy flow. Like when you feel anger in your belly or a bad gut feeling. Cursed energy nurtured on negativity is said to start from the belly and flow throughout the body. (…) That is how the cursed energy flows.”⇒
Click to expand...
Y:”Yeah, so I should just up the circulation speed, right”
Click to expand...
T:“To circulate cursed energy. For many sorcerers this is something they do consciously. (…) The theory is to circulate the cursed energy you squeeze out from negative emotions, treating your belly as the starting point.”

“Thinking of your own body as disparate body parts is what delays your energy. You’re not wrong in trying to flow cursed energy. But that’s just the first step. You can’t get stuck there. The flow of energy for an elite sorcerer is difficult to read. (But for different reasons than you.)”⇒ “(…) is what gives birth to a delay in cursed energy. ‘To circulate cursed energy’. That by itself isn’t wrong. (…) The more top class the sorcerer, the more difficult it is to read the flow of their cursed energy. (Although for different reasons than with you.)
Click to expand...
Yuji's coordination of mind, spirit, and body are what allowed him to achieve it, not speed.
KingTempest said:
Nobara did not reach that level of speed. At all. She got lucky and managed to put CE at a certain moment which was coincidentally the moment needed for Black Flash
Click to expand...
No she didn't, you can clearly see she is in an extreme state of concentration which also aligned with her drive to beat the brothers.
KingTempest said:
What are you talking about.
The "randomness" aspect I spoke about was the random timeframe Gege chose for Black Flash
Click to expand...
Correct, taking an already difficult task and making you do it quicker, doesn't mean you can't react to the increase in time. If you can run 5m in 3s and I say get it done in 1, he assumption that one's reaction speed would be limited to one second if they couldn't achieve the acceleration in time would be ludicrous. That's essentially what you are arguing here since it's blatantly evident the problem is not solely one of speed, but doing an incredibly hard task in a much smaller time frame than usually needed.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
I already provided the panels. Yuji's reactions were too fast and since he was a novice, his fist hit the target before the cursed energy did. Which means the coordination is not solely based on speed, but the complex process of utilizing cursed energy flow.
Click to expand...
You just looked at what I said and said "no".
Dr._whiteee said:
Correct, and what you aren't getting is that Reaction speed and application of CE are not based on the same thing and thus not equitable. CE flow is a constant thing that sorcerers must maintain throughout a battle and Todo explicitly says that speeding up the flow alone is not enough to get a coordinated flow. So ou're argument is just trying to be extremely reductive by making "Put CE less than a microsecond after impact" into something that should be equated to a person's reaction speed,p which doesn't make sense given your own logic since since one would have to punch and extend there own arm in a coordinated fashion at the opponent before even beginning the process of timing the MHS.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is that they can't do actions of short distances in a microsecond?

All you're saying is that "it's not reaction timing, it's application timing"
Dr._whiteee said:
Here is the full transcripton of the explanation of divergent fist and cursed energy flow
Click to expand...
This whole thing was useless.
Dr._whiteee said:
Yuji's coordination of mind, spirit, and body are what allowed him to achieve it, not speed.
Click to expand...
Nobody said it's speed at all.
You're arguing with a wall, again.

I said the heavy concentration and focus allows them to manage to coincidentally output CE in that timeframe, a heavy concentration that isn't utilized by most sorcerers.
Dr._whiteee said:
No she didn't, you can clearly see she is in an extreme state of concentration which also aligned with her drive to beat the brothers.
Click to expand...
Yes, an extreme state of concentration caused by many factors such as the situation she was in, the pain dealt, and so on.
Dr._whiteee said:
Correct, taking an already difficult task and making you do it quicker, doesn't mean you can't react to the increase in time. If you can run 5m in 3s and I say get it done in 1, he assumption that one's reaction speed would be limited to one second if they couldn't achieve the acceleration in time would be ludicrous. That's essentially what you are arguing here since it's blatantly evident the problem is not solely one of speed, but doing an incredibly hard task in a much smaller time frame than usually needed.
Click to expand...
What are you even arguing?
 
KingTempest said:
You just looked at what I said and said "no".

So what you're saying is that they can't do actions of short distances in a microsecond?

All you're saying is that "it's not reaction timing, it's application timing"

This whole thing was useless.

Nobody said it's speed at all.
You're arguing with a wall, again.

I said the heavy concentration and focus allows them to manage to coincidentally output CE in that timeframe, a heavy concentration that isn't utilized by most sorcerers.

Yes, an extreme state of concentration caused by many factors such as the situation she was in, the pain dealt, and so on.

What are you even arguing?
Click to expand...
yeah if you're just gonna do this, I'm good. I posted all my stuff. Yo can clearly see Todo is straight up telling Yuji it's not about flow speed alone, that speeding up the cursed flow is literal lvl 1 noob stuff and Yuji's eureka moment is correlated directly to his quote about coordinating all aspects of existence, but each "that whole thing means nothing". We can agree to disagree 🤝
 
Dr._whiteee said:
yeah if you're just gonna do this, I'm good. I posted all my stuff. Yo can clearly see Todo is straight up telling Yuji it's not about flow speed alone, that speeding up the cursed flow is literal lvl 1 noob stuff and Yuji's eureka moment is correlated directly to his quote about coordinating all aspects of existence, but each "that whole thing means nothing". We can agree to disagree 🤝
Click to expand...
All you're doing is explaining Yuji's cursed energy flow, which means nothing to the overall Black Flash timeframe.
We can't agree to disagree. This is a discussion thread based on which side has more agreeals.
 
KingTempest said:
All you're doing is explaining Yuji's cursed energy flow, which means nothing to the overall Black Flash timeframe.
Click to expand...
No I broke down the mechanics of CE, gave you contradictory evidence, outlined how your entire premise is inherently fallacious and was told "naw". CE isn't different from regular CE mechanics, and Todo outright tells us Cursed flow speed is not enough, in addition to us knowing motor speed alone is not enough for regular CE.
KingTempest said:
We can't agree to disagree. This is a discussion thread based on which side has more agreeals.
Click to expand...
We can. Other people have voices here and everyone can read are arguments thus far, but I already feel I've debunked your points and based on the engagements thus far, we aren't going to gain ground with one another. So our time would be best spent addressing other things unless something else pops up.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
.... black flash literally depends on cursed energy flowing into the attack exactly a microsecond after impact. not a moment before or after.
Click to expand...
#1, Less than a microsecond after
#2, You contradict yourself
#3, Explaining basic CE flow ≠ Explaining the mechanics behind Black Flash
 
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