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JJK - The Speed Ceiling

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If Yuji ends up being the first to do a Black Flash at will, we can handle that then, but atm I don't think the fact that it "seemed" like he did really means much in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, the point remains that no one can do it at will
the only reason he is so close to being able to do it at will is because of his bad control habits of having his cursed energy lag.

This is wrong as its equating the timeframe as for reaction speeds instead for what its actually for. The reason Black Flash is not something possible to do is because of the skill issue being able to lag cursed energy not the speed of it. Characters can be FTL, MFTL, or even infinite in speed but would still never be able to to perform black flash as they aren't able to actively lag curse energy behind their strikes. Yuji, the character closest to being able to use it at will is only so good because he was so bad at controlling cursed energy that is lagged behind, creating the divergent fist, and once he got better he lost the ability for a period of time.

Black flash is not an issue of the timeframe being to fast, but an issue of skill.

The series is inconsistent with its speed, yes, but this is not one of those instances.
 
This is wrong as its equating the timeframe as for reaction speeds instead for what its actually for. The reason Black Flash is not something possible to do is because of the skill issue being able to lag cursed energy not the speed of it. Characters can be FTL, MFTL, or even infinite in speed but would still never be able to to perform black flash as they aren't able to actively lag curse energy behind their strikes. Yuji, the character closest to being able to use it at will is only so good because he was so bad at controlling cursed energy that is lagged behind, creating the divergent fist, and once he got better he lost the ability for a period of time.

Black flash is not an issue of the timeframe being to fast, but an issue of skill.

The series is inconsistent with its speed, yes, but this is not one of those instances.
"when impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit"
So we know that in order to activate BF one's ce must be applied within that timeframe of a physical hit, but no one can do this at will, why? The reason is due to how extreme the concentration needs to be, without this level of concentration you can not get there.

Black flash is all about applying one's ce in that timeframe, this is not simply about "reaction speed", Idk how that became the focus of this crt, this is about the fact that none of the characters can operate within this timeframe consistently. They are not capable of applying their ce at such a speed to do this feat meaning that their ce flow is not at this level and ce flow is something conscious, this is why the word concentration is important here because what is concentration? From google "focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity." The sorcerer can not focus their attention to apply their ce within 0.000001s of their physical hit at will, its something that just might happen from the intense concentration they have in the moment.
 
This is wrong as its equating the timeframe as for reaction speeds instead for what its actually for. The reason Black Flash is not something possible to do is because of the skill issue being able to lag cursed energy not the speed of it. Characters can be FTL, MFTL, or even infinite in speed but would still never be able to to perform black flash as they aren't able to actively lag curse energy behind their strikes. Yuji, the character closest to being able to use it at will is only so good because he was so bad at controlling cursed energy that is lagged behind, creating the divergent fist, and once he got better he lost the ability for a period of time.

Black flash is not an issue of the timeframe being to fast, but an issue of skill.

The series is inconsistent with its speed, yes, but this is not one of those instances.


That was a base Hakari watching the fight from a TV somewhere, while the Hakari that performed was in Jackpot mode in combat. they aren't the same ones, that Hakari isn't scaling to the lightning feat.
basically this
 
"when impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit"
So we know that in order to activate BF one's ce must be applied within that timeframe of a physical hit, but no one can do this at will, why? The reason is due to how extreme the concentration needs to be, without this level of concentration you can not get there.

Black flash is all about applying one's ce in that timeframe, this is not simply about "reaction speed", Idk how that became the focus of this crt, this is about the fact that none of the characters can operate within this timeframe consistently. They are not capable of applying their ce at such a speed to do this feat meaning that their ce flow is not at this level and ce flow is something conscious, this is why the word concentration is important here because what is concentration? From google "focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity." The sorcerer can not focus their attention to apply their ce within 0.000001s of their physical hit at will, its something that just might happen from the intense concentration they have in the moment.
As I again "Either way, Black Flash is primarily a skill issue not a speed issue.".
Black Flash is not merely about speed but more about the ability to apply the lag and then application of curse energy within that extremely tight timeframe. Characters in JJK might can perform impressive speed and reaction times in or above the timeframes, showing the level of concentration is there. But it's the concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit, the lag before applying cursed energy, that makes Black Flash and seemingly impossible technique to use at will.

As mentioned before, a JJK character could have reactions and speeds in the nanoseconds if they wanted to but even then, they would not be able to do a black flash at will without the ability to consciously lag their cursed energy until 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. That’s the whole point you need to things two perform black flash:
  • The skills to lag cursed energy at will to create a concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit.
  • The reactions and control speeds, the level of concentration, to perform the delayed to create that application of cursed energy in 0.000001 second’s physical hit.
If you can’t do one or the other black flash cannot be done at will, using the characters as examples:

Gojo, Sukuna, Hakari, Kashimo all through their feats would have the reaction times and speeds to perform the Black flash, but they aren’t able to do a concentrated application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. They aren’t able to purposely create that application of their curse energy within 0.000001 seconds because they aren’t skilled enough, therefore black flash can’t be done at will by them. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Yuji who is far from being able to do Black Flashes at will, is the only character to make a delayed application for cursed energy (Which is still far from the skills to being able to do a black flash) but he does not have the level of concentration, the ability to operate at those speeds to be able to perform in the needed timeframe.
Black flash is all about applying one's ce in that timeframe, this is not simply about "reaction speed", Idk how that became the focus of this crt, this is about the fact that none of the characters can operate within this timeframe consistently.
No speed in JJK is consistent. As for the characters this is trying to affect.
20 Finger Sukuna:
  • Blocks Sound attack from Kashimo and laughs it off.
  • Actively dodges the electromagnetic waves as they are dangerous to him and swiftly avoids them.
  • Returns to full health again and blitz's Kashimo and is able to chant and fire a slash before Kashimo's electromagnetic wave shit him.
Gojo (All out)
  • Is able Hakari Jackpot who's only feats are reacting and dodge lightning and fighting a post timeskip Uruame off screen.
  • Is able to keep up with a healthy 20 finger Sukuna
  • Has reacted and dodged explosions at close ranges.
Both All out Gojo and 20 Finger Sukuna are consistent operating at these timeframes. But both can create applications of cursed energy within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit at will due to skills.
 
Back, was busy for a few hours. I would like to note that my comment was made with no ill-intent. I tend to exaggerate things to a silly degree for humor/conveyance purposes. I realized after coming back the 5 y/o thing may have come off as an insult, lol. I think you got what I meant tho. I'll drop this now.

I agree with a speed cap, but not for the premise presented here. So you can put my as agree with those stipulations Arkenis.
 
If Yuji ends up being the first to do a Black Flash at will, we can handle that then, but atm I don't think the fact that it "seemed" like he did really means much in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, the point remains that no one can do it at will
I'm not in disagreement that people can't do it at will. I disagree with it being some type of limitation on speed when this is a problem of deduction/skill. Though Itadori was able to pull off Black Flash against Mahito when he wanted to. I do agree though that that should be saved for later when it's explicitly stated as opposed to hinted to.
 
Why does the 0.000001 second time frame apply but the ^2.5 multiplier does not?
Exponential multipliers legitimately just don't work, because how much they buff the user can vary wildly depending on how the AP is represented.

For example, let's say someone is baseline 7-C. This is 5.8 kilotons, also known as 5800 tons, also known as 2.42672e+13 Joules. Now let's say this person does a Black Flash, gaining a ^2.5 increase. Let's test each of these values and see what the result looks like.

Example 1: 5.8^2.5 = 81.02 kilotons; Town level+ (7-C)
Example 2: 5800^2.5 = 2.56194e+9 tons, or 2.56 gigatons; Large Mountain level (High 7-A)
Example 3: (2.42672e+13)^2.5 = 2.9010097e+33 Joules, or 6.93 yottatons; Large Planet level (5-A)

This is why we don't use any exponential multipliers. Because despite the same AP value being able to be represented in different ways, taking each different way of representing it to a power results in a radically different value for the final result.

This is the last I'll say on the subject, as the AP multiplier isn't relevant here, but I did wanna clear this up.
 
Why does the 0.000001 second time frame apply but the ^2.5 multiplier does not?
Because the exponential multiplier doesn't work within the story itself, if Hanami can survive being hit by 5 Black Flashes then why should he be getting hurt by Todo and Yuji's regular punches, if Mahito's punch was amplified by a power of 2.5 then he should've donutted Todo regardless of how concentrated Todo's 8-A durability was because Mahito's Black Flash would've been a 5-C+ attack, if Yuji's punch was amplified by that too then Mahito shouldn't have been able to resist Yuji's Black Flash at all, the punch would've went straight through him. That's not to mention the issue with what units would be used on top of Gege making up Cursed Energy "starting at 2" and the fact that using an exponential would mean the unit would be a squared one (Joules^2, Tons^2)
The only feat that surpasses the time frame rn is the EM wave shenanigans.
 
20 Finger Sukuna:
  • Blocks Sound attack from Kashimo and laughs it off.
  • Actively dodges the electromagnetic waves as they are dangerous to him and swiftly avoids them.
  • Returns to full health again and blitz's Kashimo and is able to chant and fire a slash before Kashimo's electromagnetic wave shit him.
Gojo (All out)
  • Is able Hakari Jackpot who's only feats are reacting and dodge lightning and fighting a post timeskip Uruame off screen.
  • Is able to keep up with a healthy 20 finger Sukuna
  • Has reacted and dodged explosions at close ranges.
The only feat on there that surpasses MHS+ is the EM waves
 
Though Itadori was able to pull off Black Flash against Mahito when he wanted to.
no he didn't.
XPLupMC.jpg

"[he's] so amazing that he makes you THINK that's what he's doing"
 
no he didn't.
XPLupMC.jpg

"[he's] so amazing that he makes you THINK that's what he's doing"
Yeah, this doesn't really change what I said tho. I wasn't trying to say he could use it at will, but he was able to pull it off on the punch he wanted to. I prolly shoulda worded that better. It's more like it went off conveniently when he wanted it to land. I was mentioning it because it seems like foreshadowing for Itadori being able to use Black Flash whenever he wants later down the line. Or will at least evolve his use of it soon.

I will admit it was my mistake for wording it that way.
 
i honestly just see black flash as analogous to a frame-perfect input
iF you really really focus you can get it, especially with practice, even without actively being able to see each 1/60s interval
 
i honestly just see black flash as analogous to a frame-perfect input
iF you really really focus you can get it, especially with practice, even without actively being able to see each 1/60s interval
I can understand that. But I don't think it's an issue of speed for reasons stated before. Clearly they have the speed if the cursed energy can travel over a meter from center body mass down to the fist (point of impact) in a millionth of a second (This would by default mean Cursed Energy travels at MHS speed inside the body). I think it's just an issue of timing it. Humans aren't computers. So even when it comes to timeframes we can easily grasp/react to, it's hard to pin-point accurately time smth. Obviously we can to some degree though. But when you consider things like Cursed Energy lag and timing an "input" for when you think you're about to make contact and what not mid-combat, it becomes very hard.
 
How many more mods do I need before this gets accepted and I can put it somewhere on the verse page?
 
This seems logical to me, unless things change in the future of the series the discussion rule makes sense.
 
I also think that, for the time being, the OP makes sense. If things change in the future, a discussion can definitely be had about removing the rule, but for now, this is appropriate imo.
 
I deeply disagree with using Black Flash as a cap to speed in the verse because very simply, the reasons why no one can do it at will is never explained nor explored. It could be because of speed, but that isn't the only nor is it the obvious answer.

It could be a matter of control that no character can truly achieve.
It could be based purely on a state of mind that is hard for characters to achieve and maintain in the series.
It could be because the technique itself has a will of its own

We have no clue, nor support that outlines why blackflashes are impossible to do at will. And using a known mystery of the series to handicap the entire verse when we still don't really understand it makes no sense.

It is never stated nor implied that the black flash is impossible at will because no one being fast enough, that is something the OP is asserting without any scans which outline this.

To better tackle the OP in general:
The Hakari who can't perceive the difference in domain isn't Jackpot Hakari who has the major boost from infinite CE so it isn't really an anti-feat going against such fast reactions. He's stronger and fast enough to be on the level of Special Grade Sorcerers with Jackpot while in base he's comparable to some new ungraded sorcerer, so an extreme difference in reactions and such should be acceptable.

That's really the only support the OP has.

So once again, I disagree with the OP.
 
I deeply disagree with using Black Flash as a cap to speed in the verse because very simply, the reasons why no one can do it at will is never explained nor explored. It could be because of speed, but that isn't the only nor is it the obvious answer.

It could be a matter of control that no character can truly achieve.
It could be based purely on a state of mind that is hard for characters to achieve and maintain in the series.
It could be because the technique itself has a will of its own

We have no clue, nor support that outlines why blackflashes are impossible to do at will. And using a known mystery of the series to handicap the entire verse when we still don't really understand it makes no sense.

It is never stated nor implied that the black flash is impossible at will because no one being fast enough, that is something the OP is asserting without any scans which outline this.

To better tackle the OP in general:
The Hakari who can't perceive the difference in domain isn't Jackpot Hakari who has the major boost from infinite CE so it isn't really an anti-feat going against such fast reactions. He's stronger and fast enough to be on the level of Special Grade Sorcerers with Jackpot while in base he's comparable to some new ungraded sorcerer, so an extreme difference in reactions and such should be acceptable.

That's really the only support the OP has.

So once again, I disagree with the OP.
Wrong. Ya keep acting like the manga isn't telling us
This is how it's done. Therefore if the person can not flow their ce at this exact moment then it won't activate bf. This isn't speculation

The novel also tells us that extreme concentration is what's essential to actually get to that "zone" where Black Flash is activate-able. So this idea that we don't know what is required is a bit disingenuous, Gege has given us what and how is needed to reach BF and I think everything I've laid out prior to this is reasonable to assert timing is a major factor as it blatant says the impact of ce within the timeframe is what allows bf.
 
If they moved at MHS speeds then applying CE within a microsecond would be the easiest shit ever
 
Here are all my explanations/arguments for BF being a big cap on the speed for now

"when impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit"
So we know that in order to activate BF one's ce must be applied within that timeframe of a physical hit, but no one can do this at will, why? The reason is due to how extreme the concentration needs to be, without this level of concentration you can not get there.

Black flash is all about applying one's ce in that timeframe, this is not simply about "reaction speed", Idk how that became the focus of this crt, this is about the fact that none of the characters can operate within this timeframe consistently. They are not capable of applying their ce at such a speed to do this feat meaning that their ce flow is not at this level and ce flow is something conscious, this is why the word concentration is important here because what is concentration? From google "focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity." The sorcerer can not focus their attention to apply their ce within 0.000001s of their physical hit at will, its something that just might happen from the intense concentration they have in the moment.
It's like you just wanna throw out consistency for the speed scaling and go with every fast result we get. You must make speed like LS, FTL extremely consistent and shown to be apparent within the story. BF is an incredibly big nod that these characters are not FTL. Gojo the guy with godly eyes, being able to see and process the world around him greater than others still can not perform BF at will, that is a blatant showing of these characters not being FTL
This isn't about the rareness, its about the timeframe. The varying tiers of characters doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if people have done it, the point is that the timeframe in which to do it is not readily accessible to high tiers like Gojo, the timeframe is what's required to activate BF and the concentration is what's needed to reach that. Given no one can stay at that level of concentration is what shows that the characters aren't at that level, they are getting lucky through concentrating. As we saw with Yuji he tried hitting BF but since he was not concentrating to such a level that's needed so he couldn't do it.


Another way we can look at this is that we take someone playing a game where they have to be precise with their timing to hit a certain target at an exact moment, unfortunately for this person (sorcerers) they can never quite do this accurately nor can they do this with readability. Instead this person (sorcerers) require themselves to focus greatly to the point they might just hit the target and even then given this concentration they still can not hit it at will.

If this doesn't explain it, I don't know what will.
 
If they moved at MHS speeds then applying CE within a microsecond would be the easiest shit ever
Permission from KingTempest to respond

I disagree with this notion on the basis of Yuji. He's pretty much the best representative example we have regarding watching someone go from no cursed energy to cursed energy, and he began from a higher baseline stat-wise then most sorcerers. Despite that, his "superhuman speed" did not help him control and coordinate his cursed energy. So based on this, we can clearly see speed alone is not the determining factor, or else Yuji would have been able to master regular control extremely easily.
 
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I don’t mind if we either accept or reject this, if JJK is really a MHS+ verse we will see the most explicit feats ever from Greg.
 
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Permission from KingTempest to respond

I disagree with this notion on the basis of Yuji. He's pretty much the best representative example we have regarding watching someone go from no cursed energy to cursed energy, and he began from a higher baseline stat-wise then most sorcerers. Despite that, his "superhuman speed" did not help him control and coordinate his cursed energy. So based on this, we can clearly see speed alone is not the determining factor, or else Yuji would have been able to master regular control extremely easily.
Nobody is saying speed alone is the determining factor.

If their speed was high enough, then even with their average CE control, they would be able to do it
 
There was not even a single thread for FTL speed so far. I don't see a reason for this rule even in the first place.
So far I know discussion rules are made in wiki when a topic gets repeated over again and again.
 
There was not even a single thread for FTL speed so far. I don't see a reason for this rule even in the first place.
So far I know discussion rules are made in wiki when a topic gets repeated over again and again.
This isn’t for FTL. It’s for MHS+ and above
 
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