JJK - The Speed Ceiling

[ZKillerz]

Obviously disagree given Gege literally just wrote Sukuna dodging an EM wave. Unless you're saying that feat doesn't exist idk why this would take precedent.

Gege also wrote sukuna getting tagged by sound waves cuz...

 

[ZKillerz]

No speed in JJK is consistent. As for the characters this is trying to affect.
20 Finger Sukuna:

• Blocks Sound attack from Kashimo and laughs it off.

Nah we literally see it tag him iirc
Mid combat 2, kashimo uses it against sukuna and his face scrunches up (makes sense since its stated to be extremely loud) this leaves him open to getting punched by kashimo... This attack is supposed to be a million times slower than sukuna, why is it capable of tagging him/being relevant mid combat? Also why does kashimo utilize it twice despite it only being the speed of sound? Realistically kashimo wouldn't utilize it if he knew it had no chance at reaching sukuna...

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah but its entirely possible that CE flow in general is much more difficult than basic movements like dodging or wtvr. Then, applying CE 0.0001 seconds after a hit would be ludicrously hard even if the user is fast enough to react to that time frame. Imo the series doesnt really as a speed feat, but more so as a CE control feat, so arguing that sorcerers being unable to perform BF equates to them being unable to react to said timeframe is a bit unfair no?

No if you can process and react at that speed then BF should be easy as well.

 

[Firedragon7755]

Nah we literally see it tag him iirc
Mid combat 2, kashimo uses it against sukuna and his face scrunches up (makes sense since its stated to be extremely loud) this leaves him open to getting punched by kashimo... This attack is supposed to be a million times slower than sukuna, why is it capable of tagging him/being relevant mid combat? Also why does kashimo utilize it twice despite it only being the speed of sound? Realistically kashimo wouldn't utilize it if he knew it had no chance at reaching sukuna...

He baited sukuna cuz he knew he was gonna try and block the sound waves instead of dodge it becuase they aren’t a threat at all

 

[ZKillerz]

He baited sukuna cuz he knew he was gonna try and block the sound waves instead of dodge it becuase they aren’t a threat at all

We literally see the waves pressing against his hair and blowing it back

I feel like I'm the only one acknowledging the fact that the sound waves are supposedly A MILLION TIMES SLOWER THAN SUKUNA.

You know what that means right? It means kashimo can supposedly land thousands of attacks within the timeframe it takes a single sound wave to land on sukuna. The idea that "its a million times slower but kashimo still views it as a relevant distraction" and that "its a million times slower than sukuna but instead of continuing to fight both parties decide to wait for the sound waves to travel" is incredibly far fetched.

 

[ZKillerz]

I know I'm not crazy here
Imagine your fighting against a pro boxer and mid combat he decides to let his pet snail attack you instead
then you both spend 10 minutes talking about life waiting for the snail to actually travel the distance required to reach you

This is the equivalent of what your proposing (if anything its a huge lowball as the actual difference between sound and light is much more than a snail and a human)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I know I'm not crazy here
Imagine your fighting against a pro boxer and mid combat he decides to let his pet snail attack you instead
then you both spend 10 minutes talking about life waiting for the snail to actually travel the distance required to reach you

This is the equivalent of what your proposing (if anything its a huge lowball as the actual difference between sound and light is much more than a snail and a human)

Bud this is a staff thread I know what you are trying to say Naoya > Sukuna. I agree Naoya speed Bliztes anyone in the verse.
But you should get staff permission to comment here

 

[ZKillerz]

Bud this is a staff thread I know what you are trying to say Naoya > Sukuna. I agree Naoya speed Bliztes anyone in the verse.
But you should get staff permission to comment here

oh fr mb
didn't know it was a staff thread
I can delete my comments if you want

 

[Firedragon7755]

No if you can process and react at that speed then BF should be easy as well.

Not true black flash is random and occurs when your in intense concentration there’s not really a timing to it hence why nobara did it when she was in a state of flow yet she ofc is like human level in perception so she didn’t consciously time it and yuji whos the best at being in the athletic zone pulls it off the best and luck is the final factor hence why it can’t be done at will but yuji is just gifted with luck and flow

We literally see the waves pressing against his hair and blowing it back

I feel like I'm the only one acknowledging the fact that the sound waves are supposedly A MILLION TIMES SLOWER THAN SUKUNA.

You know what that means right? It means kashimo can supposedly land thousands of attacks within the timeframe it takes a single sound wave to land on sukuna. The idea that "its a million times slower but kashimo still views it as a relevant distraction" and that "its a million times slower than sukuna but instead of continuing to fight both parties decide to wait for the sound waves to travel" is incredibly far fetched.

I know I'm not crazy here
Imagine your fighting against a pro boxer and mid combat he decides to let his pet snail attack you instead
then you both spend 10 minutes talking about life waiting for the snail to actually travel the distance required to reach you

This is the equivalent of what your proposing (if anything its a huge lowball as the actual difference between sound and light is much more than a snail and a human)

Well then you can just chalk that up as half dead sukuna aim dodging the em waves and tried to dodge sound attack then just use the other much better speed feat the next chapter in his heian form when he casually chants and dismantles em waves.

 

[Firedragon7755]

ima not text anymore my fault

 

[Outcast]

No if you can process and react at that speed then BF should be easy as well.

Except that assumes that CE control ~ processing and reacting in difficulty which may or may not be true.

 

[noisyPitta]

Don't know if it means anything at this point (considering the 7 pages of thread) but I agree with the proposed changes.

 

[KingTempest]

This is a staff discussion thread

Disperse

 

[Panache_x]

Man, I dunno why I'm always late to these things. Fully aware it's not a Staff Discussion (would love it if @KingTempest could pay attention to this, and the rest of the post), but accordingly feel a sensible, non-violent or toxic but reasonable comment should be fine, ain't it? That said, I believe most here (including me) are against FTL Jujutsu Kaisen (it's absurd to even think of it, I personally still do not believe they can be far above the ranges of Mach 100s), but I'm presently against two things:

• Applying this as a discussion rule ban (feels too early for that).
• The reason behind the Speed Ceiling.

So this is something we as JJK supporters have forgotten for a very long time, something Gege put in the manga pretty early and established to us several times how ridiculous accomplishing such a task is in the world. That is Black Flash. Black Flash is when an impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit, space is distorted.

Great deduction really. Noticing this is indeed noteworthy. But
You are making a proposal (note that you are the one proposing) based on a specific conception (Black Flash) in the verse that has "issues" when attempted to be scaled according to this wiki. The issue of exponents is the initial notable element.

That aside, but correlatively, the Black Flash aswell, presents issues in not only the Potency aspect, but in Speed:

• It Is Contradictory To The Character's Independent Progressive Speed: Yuji and Nobara, who at the Kyōto Goodwill Event and Origin Of Obedience arcs respectively, were able to first pull a Black Flash which according to the OP's proposal is a MHS/MHS+ speed feat. You really can't just say these characters left their Subsonic - Sonic speeds zone and jumped onto Lightning-level speed while performing their Black Flash.
• It Is Contradictory To The Verse's General Relative Speed: Yuji and Nobara once again (three dudes ass fr) who are massively slower in comparison to Satoru's speed (there's a whole infinite chain they'll have to climb to get to Satoru. From Naobito to Vengeful Naoya to Toji to Jackpot Hakari to maybe the likes of Kenjaku who are still massively below Satoru) are able to achieve this MHS/MHS+ Speed. The relevance of this is that, the OP's proposal is implying Satoru Gojo himself is relatively below this Speed and struggles to achieve landing a Black Flash due to his slowness (by "struggle", I mean not being able to do it freely at will). Now, this is criminal. It's absurd. It is appalling. The suggestion that Nobara Kugisaki and Satoru Gojo both struggles to reach a certain speed level is implying a relativity between them. This is highly destructive to the verse's general scale. It is literally stating Satoru and Nobara equally have a hard time to reach 5m/s. This implies Satoru is relatively below a Speed that Nobara can achieve, and only high concentration can put him on equal level as Nobara's speed.

Then, for the other side of the argument, the opposers are giving an interpretation that is not because of speed that character's can't willingly perform this Spark, but because of the Timing. That is, their ability to exactly apply the Cursed Energy impact on exactly 0.000001 Seconds.
Basically, the arguments states that even if you are at a FTL speed level, it doesn't necessarily mean you can focus enough to apply this impact at the specified amount of time. Further explanatory, even if you miss the specified amount of time by a very, very, very negligible time lag, your Black Flash will not actualise. It must be  EXACTLY on the 0.000001 Seconds timeframe, which is difficult for Sorcerers to do. It both a matter of Cursed Energy manipulation and your ability to innately time your attack. Not solely on one.

While this argument doesn't possess the second issue I gave about Black Flash speed problems, it still encompasses the first. Hence, the conclusion on the matter can be drawn:
The Black Flash is greatly damaging to the verse's Potency and Speed scaling, thanks to Gege Akutami once again, who enjoys utilising real life mathematical and physics concepts, but some most times doesn't think as far to this extent and the damage it will cause to the verse's and notable character's scale.
Because of this discovery, a proposal based on Black Flash should not be used to on the verse, same way any proposal on Black Flash's contribution to potency are discarded. Speed should also be thrown away.

Now, I'm not in actuality, arguing from both sides of this whole Thread (the Proposers and the Opposers), I'm introducing a new argumentation and interpretation that solves the issue of dispute and contradistinction in the verse's speed scale. Well, although it works in favour of the Opposers in this thread, it addresses the issue from another point of view. Yeah, that should be all.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I was given permission from @KingTempest to reply here

• It Is Contradictory To The Character's Independent Progressive Speed: Yuji and Nobara, who at the Kyōto Goodwill Event and Origin Of Obedience arcs respectively, were able to first pull a Black Flash which according to the OP's proposal is a MHS/MHS+ speed feat. You really can't just say these characters left their Subsonic - Sonic speeds zone and jumped onto Lightning-level speed while performing their Black Flash.

Nobody arguing for JJK scaling below the Black Flash timeframe is saying the characters jump to MHS+ reactions when performing Black Flash, that is a complete strawman. In the arguments they have brought up, hitting Black Flash is likened to a frame perfect input which is possible in real life despite being beyond human reaction time.

• It Is Contradictory To The Verse's General Relative Speed: Yuji and Nobara once again (three dudes ass fr) who are massively slower in comparison to Satoru's speed (there's a whole infinite chain they'll have to climb to get to Satoru. From Naobito to Vengeful Naoya to Toji to Jackpot Hakari to maybe the likes of Kenjaku who are still massively below Satoru) are able to achieve this MHS/MHS+ Speed. The relevance of this is that, the OP's proposal is implying Satoru Gojo himself is relatively below this Speed and struggles to achieve landing a Black Flash due to his slowness (by "struggle", I mean not being able to do it freely at will). Now, this is criminal. It's absurd. It is appalling. The suggestion that Nobara Kugisaki and Satoru Gojo both struggles to reach a certain speed level is implying a relativity between them. This is highly destructive to the verse's general scale. It is literally stating Satoru and Nobara equally have a hard time to reach 5m/s. This implies Satoru is relatively below a Speed that Nobara can achieve, and only high concentration can put him on equal level as Nobara's speed.

You're using a Subsonic to Supersonic gap to justify Supersonic characters not being capped below MHS+

Then, for the other side of the argument, the opposers are giving an interpretation that is not because of speed that character's can't willingly perform this Spark, but because of the Timing. That is, their ability to exactly apply the Cursed Energy impact on exactly 0.000001 Seconds.
Basically, the arguments states that even if you are at a FTL speed level, it doesn't necessarily mean you can focus enough to apply this impact at the specified amount of time. Further explanatory, even if you miss the specified amount of time by a very, very, very negligible time lag, your Black Flash will not actualise. It must be  EXACTLY on the 0.000001 Seconds timeframe, which is difficult for Sorcerers to do. It both a matter of Cursed Energy manipulation and your ability to innately time your attack. Not solely on one.

The prime character being lobbied to FTL is Sukuna, who quite literally has the best understanding and manipulation of Jujutsu in the whole verse to the point where he learnt to target existence with his technique.

While this argument doesn't possess the second issue I gave about Black Flash speed problems, it still encompasses the first. Hence, the conclusion on the matter can be drawn:
The Black Flash is greatly damaging to the verse's Potency and Speed scaling, thanks to Gege Akutami once again, who enjoys utilising real life mathematical and physics concepts, but some most times doesn't think as far to this extent and the damage it will cause to the verse's and notable character's scale.
Because of this discovery, a proposal based on Black Flash should not be used to on the verse, same way any proposal on Black Flash's contribution to potency are discarded. Speed should also be thrown away.

This is a complete misunderstanding of why Black Flash's exponent isn't used. Black Flash's exponent can't be used for AP because the value will change with whatever unit of measure you use:

• 5 Tons of TNT^2.5 = 55.9016994 Tons of TNT (City Block level+)
• 5 Tons of TNT = 2.092e+10 Joules
• 2.092e+10 ^2.5 = 6.3300071e+25 Joules (Multi Continent level)

Furthermore, when you square values, the unit would be squared too so Joules would become Joules^2 and Tons would become Tons^2. We also have Gege saying Cursed Energy starts at 2 which makes the unit topic even messier. Even then, Black Flash being an exponent of 2.5 is contradicted in the series itself when we have people like Hanami surviving 4 consecutive Black Flashes while being harmed by Yuji and Todo's regular attacks which shouldn't even scratch him if Yuji's Black Flashes were that much stronger than his regular power and Mahito is also able to block Yuji's Black Flash. In order for Black Flash's 1 microsecond cap to be unapplicable to JJK, we need consistent feats with a faster timeframe, the only feat that can put the verse above it is Sukuna dodging EM waves and then being tagged by sound waves right afterwards.

 

[Panache_x]

Hope futher replies are still permitted

Nobody arguing for JJK scaling below the Black Flash timeframe is saying the characters jump to MHS+ reactions when performing Black Flash, that is a complete strawman. In the arguments they have brought up, hitting Black Flash is likened to a frame perfect input which is possible in real life despite being beyond human reaction time.

Nobody's arguing for the Black Flash users jumping to MHS+ while using Black Flash ≠ The implication doesn't mean the Black Flash users jump to MHS+ while using it. Not a strawman, just interpreting the implication of taking Black Flash as a speed scale for the verse. You didn't dispute the character jumps there, you just said "We know they'll jump to MHS+, but we ain't gonna talk bout that."

You're using a Subsonic to Supersonic gap to justify Supersonic characters not being capped below MHS+

No, I'm using the narrative of the verse, depicting Satoru's superiority to the likes of Kugisaki

The prime character being lobbied to FTL is Sukuna, who quite literally has the best understanding and manipulation of Jujutsu in the whole verse to the point where he learnt to target existence with his technique.

Satoru and Sukuna are relative. I made mention of Cursed Energy Manipulation and Timing. Regardless, that is not my proposal, so, negligible. I never implied it's my argument.

This is a complete misunderstanding of why Black Flash's exponent isn't used. Black Flash's exponent can't be used for AP because the value will change with whatever unit of measure you use:

• 5 Tons of TNT^2.5 = 55.9016994 Tons of TNT (City Block level+)
• 5 Tons of TNT = 2.092e+10 Joules
• 2.092e+10 ^2.5 = 6.3300071e+25 Joules (Multi Continent level)

Furthermore, when you square values, the unit would be squared too so Joules would become Joules^2 and Tons would become Tons^2. We also have Gege saying Cursed Energy starts at 2 which makes the unit topic even messier. Even then, Black Flash being an exponent of 2.5 is contradicted in the series itself when we have people like Hanami surviving 4 consecutive Black Flashes while being harmed by Yuji and Todo's regular attacks which shouldn't even scratch him if Yuji's Black Flashes were that much stronger than his regular power and Mahito is also able to block Yuji's Black Flash. In order for Black Flash's 1 microsecond cap to be unapplicable to JJK, we need consistent feats with a faster timeframe, the only feat that can put the verse above it is Sukuna dodging EM waves and then being tagged by sound waves right afterwards.

I didn't give a particular reason as to why Black Flash exponent isn't used. I simply said it becomes messy when attempting to scale with it. You are simply giving the reason why now, thanks. Doesn't change my stance. I dunno if you got confused over there. You've mentioned how Black Flash Potency in the verse damages the verse's general scale in various ways. That's exactly my point. The Speed application of Black Flash does same.

• Nobara's and Satoru's speed relativity remains.
• Subsonic characters jumping to MHS+ remains. In as much as Black Flash is being treated for Speed scaling, it must apply completely. You can't exclude the fact that Nobara using Black Flash under 0.000001 Seconds would range to the MHS+ speeds, just because you don't want a drawback to your proposal.

 

[KingTempest]

...nobody is jumping to MHS+. They just luckily managed to time it.

 

[SunDaGamer]

You didn't dispute the character jumps there, you just said "We know they'll jump to MHS+, but we ain't gonna talk bout that."

In the arguments they have brought up, hitting Black Flash is likened to a frame perfect input which is possible in real life despite being beyond human reaction time.

People don't jump to Subsonic reaction speed when they hit a frame perfect input.

No, I'm using the narrative of the verse, depicting Satoru's superiority to the likes of Kugisaki

And the narrative doesn't say Gojo is >MHS+

Satoru and Sukuna are relative. I made mention of Cursed Energy Manipulation and Timing. Regardless, that is not my proposal, so, negligible. I never implied it's my argument.

Someone with FTL reactions and an extremely precise control and manipulation of CE down to an atomic level should be able to release their power in a MHS+ timeframe easily

I didn't give a particular reason as to why Black Flash exponent isn't used. I simply said it becomes messy when attempting to scale with it. You are simply giving the reason why now, thanks. Doesn't change my stance. I dunno if you got confused over there. You've mentioned how Black Flash Potency in the verse damages the verse's general scale in various ways. That's exactly my point. The Speed application of Black Flash does same.

Black Flash's AP wasn't the only issue with the exponent, the unit issue is just as significant, your argument only works on the pretence that characters jump to MHS+ reaction speed when they perform Black Flash which has already been extensively argued isn't the case.

 

[KingTempest]

Scalers: Narrative
Sukuna: Piercing Water against bloodlusted Gojo

 

[Giannysmag]

Sukuna: Piercing Water against bloodlusted Gojo

Gojo dodged that every time it was used and blatantly outspeeds it near the end of the fight

 

[KingTempest]

What he using Piercing Water for against somebody MHS

 

[Giannysmag]

Piecring blood's speed can vary depending on how condensed it initially is. It's entirely possible for Sukuna's piercing water to be fater than Choso's piercing blood

 

[KingTempest]

So instead of him to use his regular attacks which should/would be fast enough to just form slashes on the man, he's gonna waste time condensing water until it shoots out hundreds of times faster than sound

I'm gonna stop since I caused that derailment that the OP didn't care about, but still. Wth

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So instead of him to use his regular attacks which should/would be fast enough to just form slashes on the man, he's gonna waste time condensing water until it shoots out hundreds of times faster than sound

I'm gonna stop since I caused that derailment that the OP didn't care about, but still. Wth

You can delete my comment I just wanted to say this Sukuna can't use his CT when he uses Ten Shadows or DA. So he had to use whatever he has in his hands. Also Sukuna uses PW only twice
01. Gojo was fighting Mahogara Sukuna fires it from blindspot if i remember properly alongside with fire extinguisher coverage
02. Again Gojo was fighting Mahogara Sukuna uses it to take down red so there is nowhere it's stated or implied Gojo was slower.
Beside as @Giannysmag stated PB speed depends on how much they condenses.

 

[Arkenis]

7 pages.... Mods agree overall, I'm gonna ask for this to be closed

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

7 pages.... Mods agree overall, I'm gonna ask for this to be closed

So what should we apply?

 

[Arkenis]

So what should we apply?

I've already added a note on it

Note on Speed Calculations higher than MHS+:

Within this speed CRT thread Mods accepted the barring of calculations that get characters beyond the timeframe that Black Flash has, therefore any speed calculation resulting in higher speed than Black Flash is to be dismissed.

As brought up in the thread, the story can change and allow for characters to reach higher tiers of speed, and even then we should take how consistent this may be and how valid it is within the context of Jujutsu Kaisen.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I've already added a note on it

Note on Speed Calculations higher than MHS+:

Within this speed CRT thread Mods accepted the barring of calculations that get characters beyond the timeframe that Black Flash has, therefore any speed calculation resulting in higher speed than Black Flash is to be dismissed.

As brought up in the thread, the story can change and allow for characters to reach higher tiers of speed, and even then we should take how consistent this may be and how valid it is within the context of Jujutsu Kaisen.

@Dereck03 Lock this, then.

 

[Dereck03]

Done.