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Isekai Maou Cosmology and Diablo CRT
(EDIT: For the sake of brevity I have changed this CRT to just cover the Cosmology. I will leave the link to the updated Diablo profile for those that want to familiarize themselves before we move on to the next thread which will likely be Diablo's AP for each key. For now, please keep discussion limited to the Cosmology.)
This has been a long time coming, and I’ve put it off for long enough. So much new information has come out with the last few volumes that Diablo’s current profile feels like a disservice. Most of my evidence and scaling is based on the official translation of the light novels, since I own all of them and had to put them to good use, but I’ve taken some images from the manga as well. Admittedly I am new at this, so feel free to disagree with any of my scaling, all I’m really trying to do is gather all the relevant evidence. This CRT will coverall the changes to Diablo’s profile, and the cosmology of the verse, because previously there wasn’t really any, and deciding on its scaling will determine the tier of top tiers like Emperor Gelmed and Demon Lord Form Diablo. I plan on making a future CRT for all the other characters who need updates, but getting this out of the way first will be a good baseline.
First off, we have to establish the cosmology, and oh boy is there a lot to go over. Prior to the latest few volumes, we only had a general sense that alternate worlds besides Diablo’s own probably exist, but not much more was known at the time. Now however, we have definitive statements including context from the original kanji that give a far more precise understanding of the verse’s cosmological structure. Unfortunately, much of this isn’t as explicit as one would expect, hence why I had to find the original kanji scans for certain clarifications. But thanks to that, I believe the author has a very clear image of their verse’s structure. Here are my drafted pages for Diablo and the verse's cosmology, everything in these should line up with the claims and evidence provided in this thread, and of course will be subject to change as we iron out some of the more exact scaling for certain attributes:
Diablo Updated Profile vs Diablo Current Profile
Isekai Maou Cosmology
To start, I’ll break down the dimensionality of the verse, as well as all of the relevant evidence.
Alternate Worlds
The building blocks of the Isekai Maou verse, alternate worlds serve as far more than just fantastical planets. Each “world” represents an entirely distinct space-time continuum, and thus includes the physical universe it resides in. These worlds also include their own karmic dimensions, and while Buddhism has multiple heavenly and hellish dimensions, no specification is made in Maou, so I assume there to be one hell and heaven dimension each. There is also a dimension of summon beasts, as it’s known in verse that these beasts are being summoned “from another world”, however it’s from a lower vertical karmic dimension rather than a separate horizontal macrocosm that contains its own karmic dimensions. This is why Celestine immediately doubts Rem’s claim that she summoned a demon lord from another world. Such a thing isn’t possible, as each macrocosm only has one demon lord and one God. Diablo, while not technically an actual demon lord, was still transported by a means only possible with the assistance of a God. Summon beasts can be summoned by anyone with the relevant class levels, and going in line with Buddhist cosmology, one can normally only interact with karmic dimensions below their own, explaining my placement of the summon beast realm below the realm of the races.
The Interstice Between Worlds
This is the realm that encompasses all of the alternate worlds in the Isekai Maou verse. It is visualized as being a black void like outer space filled with countless specks of light that look like stars. I see this as a representation of the Buddhist universe model on a multiversal scale, as a cakkavāla is a single solar system with its own corresponding karmic dimensions. Thus the appearance of the “multiverse” looking like a universe of stars makes far more sense than a literal single universe interpretation. The description of there being “countless” worlds and universes isn’t enough to say there are an infinite amount, but when the original kanji used is 三千大千世界, or “Sanzen Daisen Sekai”, literally meaning “Three Thousand Great Worlds”, it becomes obvious that the author is referring to the Buddhist cosmological model. This model is built around the cakkavāla and the increasingly larger collective sets that they comprise. To quote wikipedia, the Buddhist horizontal cosmology is: “the distribution of these world-systems into an infinite sheet of existential dimensions included in the cycle of samsara”. This is my primary reason for scaling the Interstice Between Worlds and the totality of its infinite universes as 2-A. The Interstice is also the place that spells like Gravity Abyss and Naraku banish their victims to. This realm is even used for means of temporary storage as we learn from Sylvie's otherworldy crystal that stores people in the Interstice, and the Empire of Gelmed storing Magimatic Sols in the "dimensional interstice".
(EDIT: New information which is broken down in the replies shows that the Spear of Helvetia is described as such in the original Kanji:
"此は運命律を歪曲できる《ヘルヴェティアの槍》―異なる世界から持ちこまれた、定められし無限 記憶に縛られぬ超越魔法具。"
The literal translation of this is as follows: "The "Spear of Helvetia" - a transcendent magical tool brought from another world, unbound by memories of a predetermined infinity, capable of distorting the rules of destiny."
The phrasing of "predetermined infinity" is in reference to all the worlds of the Interstice, which should cement the Interstice as being 2-A. The kanji for infinite/infinity (無限) is explicitly used, unlike previous vaguer references to the scale of verse such as "countless".)
The White Place/Corridor Between Worlds
Transcending the Interstice Between Worlds, the White Place is an infinite non-existent realm where one exists in half-spirit form, and is the only known way to travel to other worlds. Few ever step foot in this place, as the only way of accessing it is via divine miracles. Any outsider who was summoned or reincarnated into another world traveled through the White Place in the process of their summoning, however they don’t seem to remember the experience until present in the realm once again. Should someone die while in the White Place, their soul will be trapped outside the cycle of Samsara, wandering the infinite empty world for eternity. Along with being qualitatively superior to the Interstice, the White Place is physically demonstrated to be “above” the Interstice, as when Diablo accepts the summon, the “floor” disappears from beneath his feet and he falls into and begins to fly through the Interstice along with Klem. Based on this, the White Place serves as essentially a shortcut through the infinite multiverse. Those who are summoned enter the realm, and are then deposited in the local region of the Interstice where their destination world resides, whereupon the summoning spell carries them the rest of the way as shown with Diablo and Klem. I believe this warrants it to be a tier above the Interstice, but if it doesn't qualify for low 1-C I'd understand.
Overall Cosmology
The overall structure of the verse is predominantly Buddhist in nature, but there is still a significant Christian influence. Each universe has its own primary world, similar to the Earth in Christian theology. This explains the similarity of humanlike races across the alternate worlds, as they were made “in God’s image” (God is shown to be a child sized humanoid). Further parallels to Christianity can be seen with Rem being the Girl of Vessel, an allusion to the Virgin Mary as Gelmed says himself by calling her “Holy Mother”, as well as the mention of saints. There’s even a reference that suggests God once walked the Earth and created bread and wine, so it’s possible that even Jesus is a constant across universes. Each world has its own respective God and Demon Lord equivalent, and while they may differ in appearance, they represent the same primordial constants across every macrocosm. This also explains Klem’s statement of their world existing in a stream of countless possibilities. They all share the same origin and structure, having two primordial beings, one of light, the other of dark, but their respective futures differ. While the alternate worlds may operate on the same fundamentals, they are distinct realities on the level where Diablo and Klem’s magic simply doesn’t work once they first arrived in a new world. Yet while augmenting the summoning spell to include Klem, Diablo remarked how it was similar to his own, and shared the same fundamentals. It would also seem that fate exists in the Maou verse, and the futures of all the Gods and Demon Lords are already ordained. Gelmed’s use of the {Lance of Helvetia} was said to “change God’s future”, so it can be assumed that while not every future is one where God survives, none of them are meant to be ones where they are killed by a mortal. At the very end of the latest volume, Mariabelle tells Diablo about the Demon Star Manuscript, a tome handed down by her world’s God detailing the past and future of their world, which cements the idea of fate/destiny in verse. It also serves my idea of Diablo having type 4 Acausality, as the series has implied that outsiders operate outside the rules of magic, and also seem capable of “changing the future”. In my boredom I whipped up a beautiful representation of the verse’s cosmology in MS Paint which will conclude this section of the CRT.
Tiering
=========================================================================================================
(Please note as mentioned at the start of the thread, this CRT is only covering the Cosmology. Please agree or disagree only on that basis as everything else will be discussed in future threads)
Agree: Spectra_Schiffer, Mizuki67, henryzx900ruly, ProfectusInfinity
Disagree:
Neutral:
(EDIT: For the sake of brevity I have changed this CRT to just cover the Cosmology. I will leave the link to the updated Diablo profile for those that want to familiarize themselves before we move on to the next thread which will likely be Diablo's AP for each key. For now, please keep discussion limited to the Cosmology.)
This has been a long time coming, and I’ve put it off for long enough. So much new information has come out with the last few volumes that Diablo’s current profile feels like a disservice. Most of my evidence and scaling is based on the official translation of the light novels, since I own all of them and had to put them to good use, but I’ve taken some images from the manga as well. Admittedly I am new at this, so feel free to disagree with any of my scaling, all I’m really trying to do is gather all the relevant evidence. This CRT will cover
First off, we have to establish the cosmology, and oh boy is there a lot to go over. Prior to the latest few volumes, we only had a general sense that alternate worlds besides Diablo’s own probably exist, but not much more was known at the time. Now however, we have definitive statements including context from the original kanji that give a far more precise understanding of the verse’s cosmological structure. Unfortunately, much of this isn’t as explicit as one would expect, hence why I had to find the original kanji scans for certain clarifications. But thanks to that, I believe the author has a very clear image of their verse’s structure. Here are my drafted pages for Diablo and the verse's cosmology, everything in these should line up with the claims and evidence provided in this thread, and of course will be subject to change as we iron out some of the more exact scaling for certain attributes:
Diablo Updated Profile vs Diablo Current Profile
Isekai Maou Cosmology
To start, I’ll break down the dimensionality of the verse, as well as all of the relevant evidence.
Alternate Worlds
The building blocks of the Isekai Maou verse, alternate worlds serve as far more than just fantastical planets. Each “world” represents an entirely distinct space-time continuum, and thus includes the physical universe it resides in. These worlds also include their own karmic dimensions, and while Buddhism has multiple heavenly and hellish dimensions, no specification is made in Maou, so I assume there to be one hell and heaven dimension each. There is also a dimension of summon beasts, as it’s known in verse that these beasts are being summoned “from another world”, however it’s from a lower vertical karmic dimension rather than a separate horizontal macrocosm that contains its own karmic dimensions. This is why Celestine immediately doubts Rem’s claim that she summoned a demon lord from another world. Such a thing isn’t possible, as each macrocosm only has one demon lord and one God. Diablo, while not technically an actual demon lord, was still transported by a means only possible with the assistance of a God. Summon beasts can be summoned by anyone with the relevant class levels, and going in line with Buddhist cosmology, one can normally only interact with karmic dimensions below their own, explaining my placement of the summon beast realm below the realm of the races.
- Klem mentions “salvation” and Hell.
- Noah describes how the girl of the vessel functions and the Church’s teachings on reincarnation.
- Klem states that Gelmed paid the price of “a thousand incarnations”, but the original kanji shows this as 輪廻, specified as “rinne” by the furigana, which literally means Samsara or the Buddhist transmigration of souls.
- Celestine tells Rem that she's never heard of a demon lord existing in another world.
- Shera tells Rem that Diablo being summoned from another world qualifies him as a summoned beast. (World in this case refers to another dimension in their macrocosm and not an entirely different macrocosm like Diablo is actually from)
The Interstice Between Worlds
This is the realm that encompasses all of the alternate worlds in the Isekai Maou verse. It is visualized as being a black void like outer space filled with countless specks of light that look like stars. I see this as a representation of the Buddhist universe model on a multiversal scale, as a cakkavāla is a single solar system with its own corresponding karmic dimensions. Thus the appearance of the “multiverse” looking like a universe of stars makes far more sense than a literal single universe interpretation. The description of there being “countless” worlds and universes isn’t enough to say there are an infinite amount, but when the original kanji used is 三千大千世界, or “Sanzen Daisen Sekai”, literally meaning “Three Thousand Great Worlds”, it becomes obvious that the author is referring to the Buddhist cosmological model. This model is built around the cakkavāla and the increasingly larger collective sets that they comprise. To quote wikipedia, the Buddhist horizontal cosmology is: “the distribution of these world-systems into an infinite sheet of existential dimensions included in the cycle of samsara”. This is my primary reason for scaling the Interstice Between Worlds and the totality of its infinite universes as 2-A. The Interstice is also the place that spells like Gravity Abyss and Naraku banish their victims to. This realm is even used for means of temporary storage as we learn from Sylvie's otherworldy crystal that stores people in the Interstice, and the Empire of Gelmed storing Magimatic Sols in the "dimensional interstice".
(EDIT: New information which is broken down in the replies shows that the Spear of Helvetia is described as such in the original Kanji:
"此は運命律を歪曲できる《ヘルヴェティアの槍》―異なる世界から持ちこまれた、定められし無限 記憶に縛られぬ超越魔法具。"
The literal translation of this is as follows: "The "Spear of Helvetia" - a transcendent magical tool brought from another world, unbound by memories of a predetermined infinity, capable of distorting the rules of destiny."
The phrasing of "predetermined infinity" is in reference to all the worlds of the Interstice, which should cement the Interstice as being 2-A. The kanji for infinite/infinity (無限) is explicitly used, unlike previous vaguer references to the scale of verse such as "countless".)
- Klem states that the “world” exists in a stream of countless possibilities.
- Gelmed mentions Klem’s knowledge of the “countless worlds and universes”
- When casting her {Gravity Abyss} against Gelmed, Noah says she’s sending him to the “void between worlds”, which is most likely the Interstice Between Worlds.
- Noah remarks during Gelmed’s return after being hit by her {Gravity abyss} that the hole he re-enters from might be a hole to another world, as well as being the same phenomenon as {Gravity Abyss}, except much larger.
- Sylvie tells Diablo that her crystal traps people in the ‘Interstice’.
- Aira tells Doriadanph that the damaged Magimatic Sol, Arjanos of the Silver, is being stored in the 'dimensional interstice'.
- Diablo remarks about the void they’ve begun flying through, and Klem tells him that if the summoning fails they will fall into the Interstice Between Worlds.
- The discrepancy between the timing of Noah’s reincarnation and Diablo’s summoning show that this world and their original world operate within separate space-time continuums.
- Travel between alternate worlds is only possible via a Corridor, which can only be accessed via divine miracle.
The White Place/Corridor Between Worlds
Transcending the Interstice Between Worlds, the White Place is an infinite non-existent realm where one exists in half-spirit form, and is the only known way to travel to other worlds. Few ever step foot in this place, as the only way of accessing it is via divine miracles. Any outsider who was summoned or reincarnated into another world traveled through the White Place in the process of their summoning, however they don’t seem to remember the experience until present in the realm once again. Should someone die while in the White Place, their soul will be trapped outside the cycle of Samsara, wandering the infinite empty world for eternity. Along with being qualitatively superior to the Interstice, the White Place is physically demonstrated to be “above” the Interstice, as when Diablo accepts the summon, the “floor” disappears from beneath his feet and he falls into and begins to fly through the Interstice along with Klem. Based on this, the White Place serves as essentially a shortcut through the infinite multiverse. Those who are summoned enter the realm, and are then deposited in the local region of the Interstice where their destination world resides, whereupon the summoning spell carries them the rest of the way as shown with Diablo and Klem. I believe this warrants it to be a tier above the Interstice, but if it doesn't qualify for low 1-C I'd understand.
- The aptly named White Place is an endless silent white realm with no discernable floor, walls, or ceiling.
- The White place functions as a corridor with access to the infinite alternate worlds of the verse, however one can only access a given world if they receive a summoning.
- All outsiders have traveled through the White Place before.
- Narrator Diablo states the White place is a “world of frozen time”.
- Klem describes the Corridor as a “nonexistent place”.
- Klem realizes that she and Diablo are in “half-spirit form” after noting their lack of battle wounds or hunger.
Overall Cosmology
The overall structure of the verse is predominantly Buddhist in nature, but there is still a significant Christian influence. Each universe has its own primary world, similar to the Earth in Christian theology. This explains the similarity of humanlike races across the alternate worlds, as they were made “in God’s image” (God is shown to be a child sized humanoid). Further parallels to Christianity can be seen with Rem being the Girl of Vessel, an allusion to the Virgin Mary as Gelmed says himself by calling her “Holy Mother”, as well as the mention of saints. There’s even a reference that suggests God once walked the Earth and created bread and wine, so it’s possible that even Jesus is a constant across universes. Each world has its own respective God and Demon Lord equivalent, and while they may differ in appearance, they represent the same primordial constants across every macrocosm. This also explains Klem’s statement of their world existing in a stream of countless possibilities. They all share the same origin and structure, having two primordial beings, one of light, the other of dark, but their respective futures differ. While the alternate worlds may operate on the same fundamentals, they are distinct realities on the level where Diablo and Klem’s magic simply doesn’t work once they first arrived in a new world. Yet while augmenting the summoning spell to include Klem, Diablo remarked how it was similar to his own, and shared the same fundamentals. It would also seem that fate exists in the Maou verse, and the futures of all the Gods and Demon Lords are already ordained. Gelmed’s use of the {Lance of Helvetia} was said to “change God’s future”, so it can be assumed that while not every future is one where God survives, none of them are meant to be ones where they are killed by a mortal. At the very end of the latest volume, Mariabelle tells Diablo about the Demon Star Manuscript, a tome handed down by her world’s God detailing the past and future of their world, which cements the idea of fate/destiny in verse. It also serves my idea of Diablo having type 4 Acausality, as the series has implied that outsiders operate outside the rules of magic, and also seem capable of “changing the future”. In my boredom I whipped up a beautiful representation of the verse’s cosmology in MS Paint which will conclude this section of the CRT.
Tiering
- Each alternate “World” includes the totality of its physical universe as well as its corresponding karmic dimensions, making them 2-C as they’re composed of 4 space-time continuums.
- The Interstice Between Worlds and the totality of its countably infinite macrocosms scale to 2-A.
- The White Place/Corridor Between Worlds scales to 2-A for being relative to the Interstice. (I still believe the White Place to be dimensionally superior to the Interstice, currently waiting to see if those who disagreed with the initial Low 1-C scaling was because they didn't agree with an infinite Interstice or if they think the White Place isn't dimensionally superior to the Interstice)
=========================================================================================================
(Please note as mentioned at the start of the thread, this CRT is only covering the Cosmology. Please agree or disagree only on that basis as everything else will be discussed in future threads)
Agree: Spectra_Schiffer, Mizuki67, henryzx900ruly, ProfectusInfinity
Disagree:
Neutral:
Last edited:
