Xenoblade Chronicles 3 CRT: Low 1-C Early Game

[CloverDragon03]

Hi there, it's me again, bringing another CRT that'll surely be rather smooth, right guys?

...

Right?

Anyways, I've had this idea in my mind for some time now. I believe that the main party of Xenoblade Chronicles 3 (specifically 3, not 2 or 1 at all) should scale to Low 1-C. Looking through both Xenoblade 3 and its DLC Future Redeemed, I've found a number of points supporting this, especially given that the current rating of "At least 6-C, possibly High 6-A" is pretty arbitrary. My evidence for this is as follows:

1. Ino is stated to be the world's strongest Artificial Blade, making her stronger than Poppi, and Noah scales to her as her Driver. This is already accepted, but for some reason, the fact that Poppi ends up at Low 1-C for fighting True Form Jin and Artifice Aion is completely ignored.
2. Noah can slash the Interlinked Moebius D and J's arm enough to force them to let go of Guernica, as well as take a strong attack from them without too much injury. In addition, the entire early game party can send D and J back and take multiple hits from them, albeit they are inferior. This is important because D and J are capable of fighting the party after they'd defeated N, even taking an attack from an Interlinked Noah and Mio, all while J was holding their power back. Lastly, this is also important because D himself can pierce through Nia, which nearly killed her.
3. Panacea states that being able to defeat Consuls would place someone at Shulk's level, later reinforced by Shulk fighting on par with Consul W, a Consul not noted to be especially strong among their ranks. Noah and the rest of the party fight on par with a Consul early on (Consul K) and later defeat him after they dealt with his constant healing.
4. This isn't as strong a point as the other three, but I did want to bring it up rather than not. There's a precedent for standard Kevesi and Agnian soldiers scaling this high, at least main character ones, as shown with Nikol and Glimmer - as they started as average soldiers from Keves and Agnus fighting one another, with Nikol even being scared of being hit by any stray attacks from other soldiers. Despite this, they could take some hits from Matthew and A, albeit they are inferior to the two, and then go on to fight Consul W alongside the likes of Matthew, A, Shulk, and Rex without much training in between. Again, this is not as strong of a point as the other three, but I'd much rather have brought it up than not.

So yeah, that's everything from me. I feel that early-game Xenoblade 3 characters have a number of reasons to scale to Low 1-C. I also wouldn't consider this an outlier, as I know some may argue that it would be one as N is Low 1-C and he fodderized the Xenoblade 3 party mid-game. However, I disagree, as N would simply be higher into the tier. This is shown by the fact that the Future Redeemed party contends with N later, after their fight with W, and then do so again after training even more, indicating that N simply became a lot stronger over time. In short, N would be Low 1-C in both Future Redeemed and Xenoblade 3, but he'd be higher into the tier in the latter.

Also worth noting, the above statements would also apply to speed, with Ino being faster than Poppi, the early game party being able to somewhat keep up with Moebius D and J, and Panacea's statement putting them on a similar level of speed to Shulk. As such, their speed would be upgraded to "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite"

Anyways, that's about it. As always, let's stay civil about this. I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on this, because I think it's pretty consistent.

Agree: 13 (@Kachon123, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Spinoirr, @Hypertornado099, @Arnoldstone18, @Elizhaa, @The_2nd_Existential_Seed, @Starsprite53, @Eseseso, @ShakeResounding, @Planck69, @SilentLyfe, @Starbrand_Fan)
Disagree: 1 (@Joycap)
Neutral:

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah I agree with this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was about to bring up the Ino statement, as well as the fact that Consul W was someone that took Shulk and Rex working with Matthew and A to bring down.

So I do support this yes.

 

[Spinoirr]

I agree with this

 

[Hypertornado099]

Noah can slash the Interlinked Moebius D and J's arm enough to force them to let go of Guernica, as well as take a strong attack from them without too much injury. In addition, the entire early game party can send D and J back and take multiple hits from them, albeit they are inferior. This is important because D and J are capable of fighting the party after they'd defeated N, even taking an attack from an Interlinked Noah and Mio, all while J was holding their power back. Lastly, this is also important because D himself can pierce through Nia, which nearly killed her.

The first one doesn't look like Noah did real damage. Knocking someone back does not scale you to their durability unless you actually hurt them, and I think D and J notably were not hurt at all by the attack that pushed them back. Sena was knocked away by D's projectile, but she wasn't directly hit by them. It wouldn't make sense for Sena to have higher durability than Nia before she gained Ouroboros.

I think the first and third points are good enough, so I agree with Low 1-C early game for those reasons

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fair enough

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Looks aii

 

[Elizhaa]

Updates seem largely fine.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh yeah, gonna add this to the OP, but this would mean the early game party will receive a speed upgrade to "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite" due to Ino's superiority over Poppi and Panacea's statement placing them on Shulk's level

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

What in the name of powercreep is this ?!

It seems fine though given the evidence.

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What in the name of powercreep is this ?!

It seems fine though given the evidence.

Idk man Xenoblade 3 powercrept the hell out of the franchise

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo @CrimsonStarFallen @Lonkitt @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @Just_a_Random_Butler Your evaluations here would be appreciated.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Count me as agreeing as well, the evidence presented in OP seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Planck69]

Looks good to me after a once-over.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Looks good

 

[Joycap]

oh no...
oh no no, I cannot allow this

I think I want to first proffer a disclaimer that this is a disagreement from me about the removal of T6 keys, not a disagreement about T1/T2 keys existing. As I said on the SMT Anti-feats page, people act like this is one or the other, and have a kneejerk response to anything to the contrary when it's not - it can be both. I just wouldn't jump straight to T1/T2 because these characters exist in the same series. Speed scaling I can take or leave, though.

So, let's address the OP:

Ino is stated to be the world's strongest Artificial Blade, making her stronger than Poppi, and Noah scales to her as her Driver. This is already accepted, but for some reason, the fact that Poppi ends up at Low 1-C for fighting True Form Jin and Artifice Aion is completely ignored.

The immediate problem here is that this is C3 onward, not any of the early game keys that we have (I take it 3, 4 and 5 are midgame?). Consequently, it would be a hysterical outlier to say that all of the Endless Now fodder that Moebius feeds on are all T1/T2 (a level that early game Kevesi drills would be at, by your logic, and not one that I agree with). I'd make the case for the 8-B/8-Cish bolder feat we had from Ethel when @JoshSSJGod and the rest of us started building these pages.

And speaking of SSJ, you might be thinking 'but wait Joycap! Didn't he already stop you on stuff like N T7 key returning?' - but the problem with that is... we were kinda talking past each other. A reawakened Alvis/Alpha was still adjusting to Na'el as his driver (as proven by the two scenes of the City going Kaput, and Alpha being proven to speak before even being awakened from Ontos's core crystal). So when SSJ mentions A saying that Na'el's emotions are feeding straight into Alpha's power, while that's true, that was WAY after the fact (as proven by Aptitude requirements in XC2, and not just 'emotion' as mentioned here). Consider this more of a 'continuity' point, but if the narrative wants to fixate on the city bust, then why would this automatically connote T1/T2 right then and there?

I'd also argue that True Form Jin and Aion are outliers for Poppi as well (do our pages acknowledge QTPi, out of curiosity?), and that the problem with Aion scaling is that Malos was clearly jobbing, but that's kinda a separate kettle of fish entirely. Although if it's any food for thought, I don't think it's enough for characters to scale if they're not fully aware of the power they have (E.G: Rex defeating Amalthus before any of the cast knew what the Conduit even was).

You didn't want to make this about 1 & 2, and yet 3's scaling by your logic requires knowledge of the other two games. Just putting that out there.

Noah can slash the Interlinked Moebius D and J's arm enough to force them to let go of Guernica, as well as take a strong attack from them without too much injury. In addition, the entire early game party can send D and J back and take multiple hits from them, albeit they are inferior. This is important because D and J are capable of fighting the party after they'd defeated N, even taking an attack from an Interlinked Noah and Mio, all while J was holding their power back. Lastly, this is also important because D himself can pierce through Nia, which nearly killed her.

Panacea states that being able to defeat Consuls would place someone at Shulk's level, later reinforced by Shulk fighting on par with Consul W, a Consul not noted to be especially strong among their ranks. Noah and the rest of the party fight on par with a Consul early on (Consul K) and later defeat him after they dealt with his constant healing.

Simply put, these are weakness exploits (or similar circumstances thereof). A literally states herself (and Matthew himself, for that matter, when saying that they just need to 'smash the core(s), and the job's a good'un') that she 'doesn't normally stoop to this' when stabbing Moebius R in the back. This also applies to Nia's core being missed by 'two cetris' (I assume that this is CM in universe? Idk), and also Moebius K being surprised that Lucky Seven could even cut a flame clock in the first place (meaning that it'd generally be impossible for the rest of special forces above the 'average Aionios soldier' to be able to do this, as proven by the scene in question). As for Moebius D and J, well... D anywhere that wasn't late C6/early C7 was literally ******* with the party until the Annihilator was destroyed (I.E, C4).

Speaking of which...

This isn't as strong a point as the other three, but I did want to bring it up rather than not. There's a precedent for standard Kevesi and Agnian soldiers scaling this high, at least main character ones, as shown with Nikol and Glimmer - as they started as average soldiers from Keves and Agnus fighting one another, with Nikol even being scared of being hit by any stray attacks from other soldiers. Despite this, they could take some hits from Matthew and A, albeit they are inferior to the two, and then go on to fight Consul W alongside the likes of Matthew, A, Shulk, and Rex without much training in between. Again, this is not as strong of a point as the other three, but I'd much rather have brought it up than not.

"Odd... you have such a way with words."

All joking aside, Matthew and A were not there to kill Aionios soldiers, they were there to save survivors. There was no lethal intent when telling Nikol and Glimmer to stand down, and it's literally within Matthew's character to be oblivious to the state of his own power (as proven by A's friendly reminders that Moebius have the ability to track Ouroboros powers). This is also another reason that I think Shulk was lying when saying he and Rex 'didn't hold back' when sparring with Nikol and Glimmer, because of the terminals used to amp the Ouroboros stone that Riku had in his possession.

I know you said this was a lesser point, but I might as well have bought it up as well.

Tl;dr: disagree on T6 key removal, neutral on speed, bring back T8 early keys if we can as well.
I will not allow this to become another SMT wank fest.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Makes sense

 

[CloverDragon03]

The immediate problem here is that this is C3 onward, not any of the early game keys that we have (I take it 3, 4 and 5 are midgame?). Consequently, it would be a hysterical outlier to say that all of the Endless Now fodder that Moebius feeds on are all T1/T2 (a level that early game Kevesi drills would be at, by your logic, and not one that I agree with). I'd make the case for the 8-B/8-Cish bolder feat we had from Ethel when @JoshSSJGod and the rest of us started building these pages.

A few things here:

1. I even said that the 4th point, which would be the one that indicates T1/T2 for your everyday Kevesi/Agnian soldier, could be discarded if need be. I just felt like it was worth bringing up.
2. Fan calculations should never take precedents over legitimate scaling.
3. It's not an outlier, as shown by the consistency of such a placement. This is a very liberal use of the term that I am not a fan of, to the point where I would highly urge against the use of the term to dismiss things we don't like.
4. I'd at least say Chapter 3 is still early game, as Chapter 4 onwards is where the feats start ramping up (like Mio punching the Interlinked O and P)

And speaking of SSJ, you might be thinking 'but wait Joycap! Didn't he already stop you on stuff like N T7 key returning?' - but the problem with that is... we were kinda talking past each other. A reawakened Alvis/Alpha was still adjusting to Na'el as his driver (as proven by the two scenes of the City going Kaput, and Alpha being proven to speak before even being awakened from Ontos's core crystal). So when SSJ mentions A saying that Na'el's emotions are feeding straight into Alpha's power, while that's true, that was WAY after the fact (as proven by Aptitude requirements in XC2, and not just 'emotion' as mentioned here). Consider this more of a 'continuity' point, but if the narrative wants to fixate on the city bust, then why would this automatically connote T1/T2 right then and there?

You do realize N fights Alpha very soon after he attacks the City, right? At the very least, it wouldn't be too long after, as Matthew's still an adult during the flashbacks of N attacking the City. I disagree with N having a Tier 7 key, because that would make Alpha Tier 7, which is blatantly false.

You two may be talking past each other on this, but I'm on Josh's side here in saying that we absolutely should not have a Tier 7 key for N.

Simply put, these are weakness exploits (or similar circumstances thereof). A literally states herself (and Matthew himself, for that matter, when saying that they just need to 'smash the core(s), and the job's a good'un') that she 'doesn't normally stoop to this' when stabbing Moebius R in the back. This also applies to Nia's core being missed by 'two cetris' (I assume that this is CM in universe? Idk), and also Moebius K being surprised that Lucky Seven could even cut a flame clock in the first place (meaning that it'd generally be impossible for the rest of special forces above the 'average Aionios soldier' to be able to do this, as proven by the scene in question). As for Moebius D and J, well... D anywhere that wasn't late C6/early C7 was literally ******* with the party until the Annihilator was destroyed (I.E, C4).

All of these have proper retorts to them.

1. The exploitation of any weak points was never brought up, nor did any of Panacea or Shulk know the Moebius were being defeated via such an exploitation. As such, it's ridiculous to assume they already knew they were exploiting this, especially since they didn't even know who was taking out Moebius. That's not even mentioning that this exploitation seems to also be specific to certain weapons, such as Matthew's Ouroboros Knuckles and A's Monado (which the Consuls they were fighting made note of).
2. D missed her Core though, and yet despite this, she was still noticeably injured from his attack.
3. I don't see what this point about Moebius K actually proves. Like yeah, Lucky Seven is superior to what Noah can normally do, and what any Aionios soldier can do. This isn't an anti-feat by any stretch, as Lucky Seven is meant to be this special weapon far above Noah's normal capabilities.
4. D and J were literally fighting to kill Noah and co. in Chapter 1, as he legit says "You've got a real death wish" and is especially trying to kill them after they become Ouroboros.

"Odd... you have such a way with words."

All joking aside, Matthew and A were not there to kill Aionios soldiers, they were there to save survivors. There was no lethal intent when telling Nikol and Glimmer to stand down, and it's literally within Matthew's character to be oblivious to the state of his own power (as proven by A's friendly reminders that Moebius have the ability to track Ouroboros powers). This is also another reason that I think Shulk was lying when saying he and Rex 'didn't hold back' when sparring with Nikol and Glimmer, because of the terminals used to amp the Ouroboros stone that Riku had in his possession.

I know you said this was a lesser point, but I might as well have bought it up as well.

My point isn't that Matthew and A were trying to kill Nikol and Glimmer, I know they were trying to save them. My point is that Nikol and Glimmer could still force them on the defensive, especially when R tells Glimmer to attack Matthew.

Also, whether or not you personally believe Shulk and Rex were lying, that personal belief doesn't hold up much compared to what they actually tell them. It's never at all noted that they're lying, and this seems more like an argument from incredulity, believing that there's no way Nikol and Glimmer should be on par with Shulk and Rex

I will not allow this to become another SMT wank fest.

Really not a fan of the obvious motive for shooting this down, claiming I'm "wanking the verse" despite the clear support

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'd also argue that True Form Jin and Aion are outliers for Poppi as well (do our pages acknowledge QTPi, out of curiosity?), and that the problem with Aion scaling is that Malos was clearly jobbing, but that's kinda a separate kettle of fish entirely. Although if it's any food for thought, I don't think it's enough for characters to scale if they're not fully aware of the power they have (E.G: Rex defeating Amalthus before any of the cast knew what the Conduit even was).

Somehow I completely missed this so I'll address this too. To begin with, again, this is going back to my point of "dismissing feats as outliers simply because we don't like them." If they were outliers and Poppi was still Tier 6, there's no reason to bring Tora and Poppi along because otherwise they'd die instantly. The fact of the matter is that Tora and Poppi can fight alongside the rest of the party, including Master Driver Rex and Pneuma.

Also, not exactly sure what Malos jobbing has to do with anything...

Lastly, this personal belief of how character scaling should work, while potentially food for thought, is just that at the end of the day: personal belief. I don't really buy into it.

You didn't want to make this about 1 & 2, and yet 3's scaling by your logic requires knowledge of the other two games. Just putting that out there.

This is a bit of a misinterpretation of my words. I meant that early game 1 and 2 characters would stay the way they are, and that this proposed upgrade doesn't affect them.

 

[Joycap]

A few things here:

1. I even said that the 4th point, which would be the one that indicates T1/T2 for your everyday Kevesi/Agnian soldier, could be discarded if need be. I just felt like it was worth bringing up.
2. Fan calculations should never take precedents over legitimate scaling.
3. It's not an outlier, as shown by the consistency of such a placement. This is a very liberal use of the term that I am not a fan of, to the point where I would highly urge against the use of the term to dismiss things we don't like.
4. I'd at least say Chapter 3 is still early game, as Chapter 4 onwards is where the feats start ramping up (like Mio punching the Interlinked O and P)

1. Right, but my point is were Noah & Co not 'average soldiers' at one point? And wouldn't there be a specific point where Noah understood his power enough to justify this scaling? (I.E keeping Lucky Seven sheathed outside of specific circumstances)? I'd also suggest 'key per chapter', bringing us to...
2. I never argued this (or at the very least, I am not the one who bought up the T8 calc, if that's what you're saying - SSJ was at least front and centre when it was calced).
3. Oh hey, you have the same concern for loaded terms that I do . But then that beggars the question as for what we consider an outlier on this site?
4. See ending line of point 1 (I.E see above)

You do realize N fights Alpha very soon after he attacks the City, right? At the very least, it wouldn't be too long after, as Matthew's still an adult during the flashbacks of N attacking the City. I disagree with N having a Tier 7 key, because that would make Alpha Tier 7, which is blatantly false.

You two may be talking past each other on this, but I'm on Josh's side here in saying that we absolutely should not have a Tier 7 key for N.

Yes, I am well aware that N fights Alpha here (or at the very least, Na'el amped in some way by Alpha). In fact, that's half my problem with the scaling itself, because the City blowing up is far before the feed of emotions can even begin. This is also partly why I bring up 'Malos jobbing' - because it's a similar problem here: Na'el isn't pushing herself there (in the City, I mean) in the same way that she does at Ragwell Lake, because she just sees 'another Moebius' and is immediately punished for it. Same applies to N, he didn't know how far his powers could take him, and looks down at who he sees as just another little girl (even when he DOES acknowledge Alpha, it's more to stop him getting to that point, and not because Alpha was already at his peak).

All of these have proper retorts to them.

1. The exploitation of any weak points was never brought up, nor did any of Panacea or Shulk know the Moebius were being defeated via such an exploitation. As such, it's ridiculous to assume they already knew they were exploiting this, especially since they didn't even know who was taking out Moebius. That's not even mentioning that this exploitation seems to also be specific to certain weapons, such as Matthew's Ouroboros Knuckles and A's Monado (which the Consuls they were fighting made note of).
2. D missed her Core though, and yet despite this, she was still noticeably injured from his attack.
3. I don't see what this point about Moebius K actually proves. Like yeah, Lucky Seven is superior to what Noah can normally do, and what any Aionios soldier can do. This isn't an anti-feat by any stretch, as Lucky Seven is meant to be this special weapon far above Noah's normal capabilities.
4. D and J were literally fighting to kill Noah and co. in Chapter 1, as he legit says "You've got a real death wish" and is especially trying to kill them after they become Ouroboros.

1. I'm sorry, but are we seriously implying that Shulk and Rex, who had been fighting and defeating Moebius for over a decade (possibly longer) since 'Alpha seized Origin' didn't know about cores as weak points in that time? Even when Rex ordered Matthew to 'take out the Moebius' (his words, not mine) vs W? Okay :kekw:. Also you're arguing 'specific weapons' whilst also trying to justify verse scaling when basically every weapon is data linked to Origin. I think that would be most if not all of them.
2. ...Yes, that's what I just said, and all things considered, D was still in his '******* about' mood until the fight with Noah started proper.
3. I never said this was an anti-feat? Quite the opposite, actually, because Noah is far beyond anything at that point in the story should he decide to use L7. That's his character, he wants to restrain that power as best he can and force surrenders/don't kill, before Riku literally says during his arrest 'heyo maybe L7 could have helped you out here?'
4. 'You've got a real death wish' is not an explanation of feats. I just took this as D saying that the lack of killing going on meant that Noah/Mio and every soldier in that skirmish were out of line in Moebius's eyes. I could die to a bullet tomorrow, does this mean I survived a nuke strike?

My point isn't that Matthew and A were trying to kill Nikol and Glimmer, I know they were trying to save them. My point is that Nikol and Glimmer could still force them on the defensive, especially when R tells Glimmer to attack Matthew.

Do you mind clarifying this? Matthew literally had full initiative until R said to Glimmer that 'he's not looking at you' (which is what you said, but I can't think of any other instance beyond that).

Also, whether or not you personally believe Shulk and Rex were lying, that personal belief doesn't hold up much compared to what they actually tell them. It's never at all noted that they're lying, and this seems more like an argument from incredulity, believing that there's no way Nikol and Glimmer should be on par with Shulk and Rex

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying not literally in the first hour of the game (or 5-10 minutes if you're looking at the in-game cutscenes).

Really not a fan of the obvious motive for shooting this down, claiming I'm "wanking the verse" despite the clear support

Man is naught but motive, I think you'll find.

Somehow I completely missed this so I'll address this too. To begin with, again, this is going back to my point of "dismissing feats as outliers simply because we don't like them." If they were outliers and Poppi was still Tier 6, there's no reason to bring Tora and Poppi along because otherwise they'd die instantly. The fact of the matter is that Tora and Poppi can fight alongside the rest of the party, including Master Driver Rex and Pneuma.

See above (again).

Also, not exactly sure what Malos jobbing has to do with anything...

Bro literally needed additional sirens to blow up a planet, and yet we're putting him at T1/T2 like...



(but this can be a different CRT)

This is a bit of a misinterpretation of my words. I meant that early game 1 and 2 characters would stay the way they are, and that this proposed upgrade doesn't affect them.

Never argued that last bit, but thanks for clarifying.

 

[CloverDragon03]

1. Right, but my point is were Noah & Co not 'average soldiers' at one point? And wouldn't there be a specific point where Noah understood his power enough to justify this scaling? (I.E keeping Lucky Seven sheathed outside of specific circumstances)? I'd also suggest 'key per chapter', bringing us to...
2. I never argued this (or at the very least, I am not the one who bought up the T8 calc, if that's what you're saying - SSJ was at least front and centre when it was calced).
3. Oh hey, you have the same concern for loaded terms that I do . But then that beggars the question as for what we consider an outlier on this site?
4. See ending line of point 1 (I.E see above)

1. I don't think I follow. Like, yes, but what exactly are you arguing here? I don't understand how what you're saying constitutes a refute to my proposed scaling.
2. If that's the case, then the existence of Tier 8 calcs shouldn't be a factor if the characters themselves have scaling to Tier 1 characters.
3. That's a question that can't exactly be answered at this very moment, it really depends on who you ask.
4. I'm not very big on this idea, like I'd much rather just keep it as Early Game (Chapters 1-3), Mid-Game (Chapters 4-5), and Late/End-Game (Chapters 6-7)

Yes, I am well aware that N fights Alpha here (or at the very least, Na'el amped in some way by Alpha). In fact, that's half my problem with the scaling itself, because the City blowing up is far before the feed of emotions can even begin. This is also partly why I bring up 'Malos jobbing' - because it's a similar problem here: Na'el isn't pushing herself there (in the City, I mean) in the same way that she does at Ragwell Lake, because she just sees 'another Moebius' and is immediately punished for it. Same applies to N, he didn't know how far his powers could take him, and looks down at who he sees as just another little girl (even when he DOES acknowledge Alpha, it's more to stop him getting to that point, and not because Alpha was already at his peak).

I don't think I follow... again. I'll get to the Malos part later, which I think is a non-factor for reasons you'll see below. As for Na'el, Alpha is amping her to be stronger than the Alpha that Shulk, Rex, and Z fought (as Rex literally notes at Ragwell Lake). That's a focal point of this whole debacle in Future Redeemed, that Na'el's strong emotions are what are fueling Alpha.

If you're saying this hadn't started yet, I'd have to disagree. The feed of emotions isn't something that happens over time, Alpha just immediately gets stronger in response to Na'el's emotions. And such emotions were shown to have existed well before Alpha took control of her.

Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

1. I'm sorry, but are we seriously implying that Shulk and Rex, who had been fighting and defeating Moebius for over a decade (possibly longer) since 'Alpha seized Origin' didn't know about cores as weak points in that time? Even when Rex ordered Matthew to 'take out the Moebius' (his words, not mine) vs W? Okay :kekw:. Also you're arguing 'specific weapons' whilst also trying to justify verse scaling when basically every weapon is data linked to Origin. I think that would be most if not all of them.
2. ...Yes, that's what I just said, and all things considered, D was still in his '******* about' mood until the fight with Noah started proper.
3. I never said this was an anti-feat? Quite the opposite, actually, because Noah is far beyond anything at that point in the story should he decide to use L7. That's his character, he wants to restrain that power as best he can and force surrenders/don't kill, before Riku literally says during his arrest 'heyo maybe L7 could have helped you out here?'
4. 'You've got a real death wish' is not an explanation of feats. I just took this as D saying that the lack of killing going on meant that Noah/Mio and every soldier in that skirmish were out of line in Moebius's eyes. I could die to a bullet tomorrow, does this mean I survived a nuke strike?

1. We literally don't know how Shulk and Rex have been taking down the Moebius. How Matthew did so against W is one thing, Rex literally just told him to take out the Moebius but didn't explain how. And we know Moebius don't need to have their cores destroyed in order to be defeated, as shown by the multiple Moebius that Noah and co. have defeated without destroying their cores.
2. D in his "******* about" mood did significant damage to Nia so...
3. Okay? Like, I don't get what this debunks. All of this is still well within my proposed scaling.
4. That's not what this meant, especially in context. Noah attacked D, and in response, he said this. He's saying that Noah must really want to die if he's attacking him, meaning D is in fact trying to kill Noah and co. And yet despite this, they survive several hits.

Do you mind clarifying this? Matthew literally had full initiative until R said to Glimmer that 'he's not looking at you' (which is what you said, but I can't think of any other instance beyond that).

What I mean is that when Glimmer attacks Matthew on R's orders, he's forced to block her attacks, indicating that her attacks could hurt him if he hadn't done so. If they couldn't have hurt him, he would've just tanked them and kept fighting R rather than Glimmer actually being able to occupy him.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying not literally in the first hour of the game (or 5-10 minutes if you're looking at the in-game cutscenes).

Except, again... This isn't substantiated at all.

See above (again).

What specifically? My point is that dismissing major boss battles and the entire party's ability to combat such foes isn't something that should just be handwaved as an outlier.

Bro literally needed additional sirens to blow up a planet, and yet we're putting him at T1/T2 like...



(but this can be a different CRT)

Since you said this can be discussed later, this will be the last response I make on this:

This is a classic case of a fundamental concept on the site: Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I agree with Clover Dragon. Most of those arguments are knit picky as heck as the Tier 1 scaling chains from characters who also have a bunch of extremely casual Low 2-C feats have been blatant as early as mid game XB1. But as for XB3 cast, Ino being the strongest Artificial Blade was a pretty face value statement despite knowing how strong End Game Poppi is by XB2 and is still considered strong for FR Rex's standards. And to further back this up, Ino is empowered by some "Otherworldly form of Ether" that is stated to be far more potent than most Ether many others are used to seeing and even stronger than the ones used to empower various Ferronis' (Including the one piloted by Consul W) that was a thread even when Shulk and Rex were in the party. The fuel source of Ino is also something typical Ether cannisters would get utterly destroyed by.

Also, Nikol and Glimmer being the weakest party members of FR is canon early on. As Shulk and Rex sensed their powers being low and "Their sparks haven't enlightened." Which despite Shulk already being part of the scaling chain long before Future Redeemed and his "Spark" being something that made him stronger and Rex being his equal makes it pretty face value. But when they fought, they wanted nothing more than their kids to get stronger and wanted to give it their all to awaken their sparks. And when it finally did happen, Nikol and Glimmer won. They had not reason to lie about not holding back and now they got no regrets letting them fight Alpha.

While I'm unsure about saying every common foot soldier is Low 1-C, I still think it's pretty in our faces that the very second the cast became Ouroboros is when they're in comparable scaling chain to the likes of FR Shulk and Rex, and before that is too short lived to really be necessary. So I still see no reason for Tier 6 keys to really exist. But given fodder soldiers are hard to judge, I'd argue super early game to be unknown or removed outright; but leaning towards the latter.

 

[Hypertornado099]

This is a classic case of a fundamental concept on the site: Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

One of the justifications used for Aion is a Tier 1 destructive capacity statement

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

One of the justifications used for Aion is a Tier 1 destructive capacity statement

The main reason for Aion's tier is a statement that it's "The only one powerful enough to kill the Architect" who has Tier 1 durability.

 

[CloverDragon03]

One of the justifications used for Aion is a Tier 1 destructive capacity statement

Where? I see nothing of the sort on the profile

And like DDM said, Aion is able to kill the Architect, who is Low 1-C

 

[Hypertornado099]

And to further back this up, Ino is empowered by some "Otherworldly form of Ether" that is stated to be far more potent than most Ether many others are used to seeing and even stronger than the ones used to empower various Ferronis' (Including the one piloted by Consul W) that was a thread even when Shulk and Rex were in the party. The fuel source of Ino is also something typical Ether cannisters would get utterly destroyed by.

Do you have a scan of this?

The main reason for Aion's tier is a statement that it's "The only one powerful enough to kill the Architect" who has Tier 1 durability.

Oh it got changed. But the range still says Low 1-C because Aion can destroy all existence and it uses the Conduit, the first reason should probably get removed due to Aion's destructive capacity not being that high

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh it got changed. But the range still says Low 1-C because Aion can destroy all existence and it uses the Conduit, the first reason should probably get removed due to Aion's destructive capacity not being that high

No, it's fine as is, especially since Malos could've very easily just been starting with Alrest

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, I agree with Clover Dragon. Most of those arguments are knit picky as heck as the Tier 1 scaling chains from characters who also have a bunch of extremely casual Low 2-C feats have been blatant as early as mid game XB1. But as for XB3 cast, Ino being the strongest Artificial Blade was a pretty face value statement despite knowing how strong End Game Poppi is by XB2 and is still considered strong for FR Rex's standards. And to further back this up, Ino is empowered by some "Otherworldly form of Ether" that is stated to be far more potent than most Ether many others are used to seeing and even stronger than the ones used to empower various Ferronis' (Including the one piloted by Consul W) that was a thread even when Shulk and Rex were in the party. The fuel source of Ino is also something typical Ether cannisters would get utterly destroyed by.

Also, Nikol and Glimmer being the weakest party members of FR is canon early on. As Shulk and Rex sensed their powers being low and "Their sparks haven't enlightened." Which despite Shulk already being part of the scaling chain long before Future Redeemed and his "Spark" being something that made him stronger and Rex being his equal makes it pretty face value. But when they fought, they wanted nothing more than their kids to get stronger and wanted to give it their all to awaken their sparks. And when it finally did happen, Nikol and Glimmer won. They had not reason to lie about not holding back and now they got no regrets letting them fight Alpha.

While I'm unsure about saying every common foot soldier is Low 1-C, I still think it's pretty in our faces that the very second the cast became Ouroboros is when they're in comparable scaling chain to the likes of FR Shulk and Rex, and before that is too short lived to really be necessary. So I still see no reason for Tier 6 keys to really exist. But given fodder soldiers are hard to judge, I'd argue super early game to be unknown or removed outright; but leaning towards the latter.

My sentiments exactly, pretty much, especially as far as the main cast is concerned. Every common foot soldier being that high, sure you can go ahead and dismiss that, I even said that was a pretty minor point by comparison and I wouldn't really be losing much by that point being discarded. However, the early game party very evidently has the scaling to justify this level of power

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Do you have a scan of this?

Bit tired to look for specific time stamp but recommend entire video. But High Ether is what she calls it. As well as a statement about normal canisters being unable to contain it is explained shortly after that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, I'd like to add to this with something that I feel makes sense for if this thread is accepted. I'd like to propose splitting N and Z into two keys: Future Redeemed and Xenoblade Chronicles 3.

N and Z are comparable to Shulk and Rex in Future Redeemed, whereas in Xenoblade 3, N stomps a mid-game Noah and co. (even when they're Interlinked), with this scaling placing Noah on Shulk's level. Z is also stated to be far stronger than all other Moebius in Xenoblade 3, making him far stronger than N.

Side Note: M's profile says she's comparable to N... No she isn't, she was fighting on par with the Xenoblade 3 party while N effortlessly stomped them. Or well, her body was, I know it was actually Mio in her body, but she had to be going all-out so as to not draw suspicion from the other Moebius.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Planck69 Since you've commented here before, I'd like to know what you think of the above suggestion

 

[Hypertornado099]

Also, I'd like to add to this with something that I feel makes sense for if this thread is accepted. I'd like to propose splitting N and Z into two keys: Future Redeemed and Xenoblade Chronicles 3.

N and Z are comparable to Shulk and Rex in Future Redeemed, whereas in Xenoblade 3, N stomps a mid-game Noah and co. (even when they're Interlinked), with this scaling placing Noah on Shulk's level. Z is also stated to be far stronger than all other Moebius in Xenoblade 3, making him far stronger than N.

Side Note: M's profile says she's comparable to N... No she isn't, she was fighting on par with the Xenoblade 3 party while N effortlessly stomped them. Or well, her body was, I know it was actually Mio in her body, but she had to be going all-out so as to not draw suspicion from the other Moebius.

What feats does M even have? Technically anything Mio does in M's body, M is amped by both Moebius and Ouroboros power

Also, I agree with the key split. The game takes place like a hundred years after the DLC and N could have gained more power from souls

 

[CloverDragon03]

What feats does M even have? Technically anything Mio does in M's body, M is amped by both Moebius and Ouroboros power

Also, I agree with the key split. The game takes place like a hundred years after the DLC and N could have gained more power from souls

M should at least be comparable to the early game Consuls, making her Low 1-C still

Her current justifications are just wrong though, she is most definitely not comparable to N and the "fought against Z numerous times" part means nothing because she died to his mere presence every time

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, I'd like to add to this with something that I feel makes sense for if this thread is accepted. I'd like to propose splitting N and Z into two keys: Future Redeemed and Xenoblade Chronicles 3.

N and Z are comparable to Shulk and Rex in Future Redeemed, whereas in Xenoblade 3, N stomps a mid-game Noah and co. (even when they're Interlinked), with this scaling placing Noah on Shulk's level. Z is also stated to be far stronger than all other Moebius in Xenoblade 3, making him far stronger than N.

I agree with a key split given the upgrades that happen later on.

Side Note: M's profile says she's comparable to N... No she isn't, she was fighting on par with the Xenoblade 3 party while N effortlessly stomped them. Or well, her body was, I know it was actually Mio in her body, but she had to be going all-out so as to not draw suspicion from the other Moebius.

I believe it comes from the fact that Mio in M's body was able to repel N's sword and save Noah; I agree she's weaker overall, but I'm not sure about calling her a lot weaker.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I believe it comes from the fact that Mio in M's body was able to repel N's sword and save Noah; I agree she's weaker overall, but I'm not sure about calling her a lot weaker.

I mean sure, but Noah and co. got a lot stronger just by being in prison, so who's to say M's body didn't get stronger as well? And when we take the two in the same instance, we see that N is stomping characters that M is comparable to.

Imo her justification should look like this: "Low Complex Multiverse level (Should at least be comparable to other Consuls, making her comparable to Shulk. When fighting in her body, Mio could fight and damage the likes of Noah)"

 

[CloverDragon03]

Aight, it's been over 48 hours and this has received sufficient agreement from staff, so I can begin to apply changes.

Time to pester ask for a whopping 6 profiles to be unlocked...

 

[Hypertornado099]

I believe it comes from the fact that Mio in M's body was able to repel N's sword and save Noah

I don't think Josh used that as the reason, M doesn't repel things with her ability. She most likely controlled Noah's body to prevent N from hitting him and killing her in the process

 

[CloverDragon03]

I've applied the changes. This can now be closed