Infinite Zamasu and God's Revision

[Nullflowerblush]

Because if I recall correctly, not even ghosts can use Ki.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Dude we have sentient voids and crazy whatnots doing even crazier feats thoughout fiction.
A disembodied willpower can definitely shoot ki blasts lmao.

 

[Rez]

Time Ring users and Angels can return to the past of the same timeline, which is how Whis prevented Vegeta's death in RoF (by the Earth being destroyed), and Gowasu's death by the hands of Present Zamasu.

False time ring users can't travel to past they can only go to future

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Okay, but do you have proof of this for, like I dunno, Dragon Ball, and not Blazblue or something?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

False time ring users can't travel to past they can only go to future

They can actually

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Okay, but do you have proof of this for, like I dunno, Dragon Ball, and not Blazblue or something?

Infinite Zamasu

 

[Rez]

They can actually

Goku black only did it once and that was because trunks time travel caused an time rift to open

 

[Rez]

And, where are you getting Type 1 Acausality Negation from, again? I got lost.

Again beerus stated that him killing zamasu will cause changes in space time instead of creating a new timeline like what happened with Androids

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay, but do you have proof of this for, like I dunno, Dragon Ball, and not Blazblue or something?

So you mean because this is Dragon Ball. they not qualify then

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Since when AE beings can't shoot energy blasts? I'm sorry but that argument is absolutely wrong

And no, "cause it's Dragon Ball" Is not a debunk

 

[Rez]

Just read the reasoning for type 4 acausilty and it's more like type 1 negation actually since Beerus is stating him killing zamasu will not result in an alternate timeline and instead will directly affect the future zamasu and casue changes in the event throughout space time

That is just Type 1...

...of which Goku Black is an example.

And, where are you getting Type 1 Acausality Negation from, again? I got lost.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Again beerus stated that him killing zamasu will cause changes in space time instead of creating a new timeline like what happened with Androids

Yes, the Hakai would have directly affected Goku Black because he is the future version of Zamasu. That is simply erasing someone across history, which is something that Existence Erasure can just do; you are erasing their existence.

Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

However, Goku Black was unaffected by his past self being erased because of the Time Ring. That is Type 1 Acausality. Beerus, though, has no reason to have this "Acausality Negation" thingy because he is negating nobody's Acausality.

 

[Rez]

This is definitely not Acausality Type 2, but rather how timelines work in Dragon Ball. If you go and kill someone in the past, then it won't erase his present self, but rather create a new timeline where he or she is dead.

Time Ring users and Angels can return to the past of the same timeline, which is how Whis prevented Vegeta's death in RoF (by the Earth being destroyed), and Gowasu's death by the hands of Present Zamasu.

Had they got Acausality Type 2, they wouldnt find them when they return to the past since they wouldn't exist there, meaning Vegeta will stay dead and so does Gowasu

Gowasu was not in possession of a time ring when he died and time ring can't travel to past and Angel time manipulation and time rings are different

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Because if I recall correctly, not even ghosts can use Ki.

People not properly reading his thought process and automatically being uppity. Jesus christ.

He is using an example within Dragon Ball itself to show that some incorporeal beings can't use ki. He simply is mistaken in this case, since Zamasu didn't become a normal ghost that lack the function of using ki. Just explain that, people. Not that hard.

 

[sanicspood]

People not properly reading his thought process and automatically being uppity. Jesus christ.

He is using an example within Dragon Ball itself to show that some incorporeal beings can't use ki. He simply is mistaken in this case, since Zamasu didn't become a normal ghost that lack the function of using ki. Just explain that, people. Not that hard.

literally no ones getting uppity.

 

[Rez]

Yes, the Hakai would have directly affected Goku Black because he is the future version of Zamasu. That is simply erasing someone across history, which is something that Existence Erasure can just do; you are erasing their existence.

In db universe that would have only resulted in an different timeline and hakai isn't history Erasure

 

[StrymULTRA]

also, i just remembered that infinite zamasu could use energy blasts. not too sure if beings of pure willpower could do that.

You literally see characters as Madoka Kaname who use ******* ARROWS, how the hell is that a counter I dunno.

 

[manu_zarri]

Because if I recall correctly, not even ghosts can use Ki.

and why we are using Incorporeal ghosts which can't use Ki to prove that Abstract beings that embody will can't either? Being a ghost isn't equal to embody will which is a "emotions" that come from our mind.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

People not properly reading his thought process and automatically being uppity. Jesus christ.

He is using an example within Dragon Ball itself to show that some incorporeal beings can't use ki. He simply is mistaken in this case, since Zamasu didn't become a normal ghost that lack the function of using ki. Just explain that, people. Not that hard.

Even then the instance is wrong, the fighters that die (heroes or villains) and go to afterlife maintain normal like body, ghosts(the cloudy beings) which you see are entirely normal people.

 

[manu_zarri]

Even then the instance is wrong

the dude is saying that too

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Even then the instance is wrong, the fighters that die (heroes or villains) and go to afterlife maintain normal like body, ghosts(the cloudy beings) which you see are entirely normal people.

And that's all you needed to say. No need to go "but muh fiction" "oh, because this is DB, right?"

However, it should be noted the fighters are a special case that King Yama let them keep their bodies.

 

[Orange]

Because if I recall correctly, not even ghosts can use Ki.

what does ghosts have to do with will?
also Ghosts and souls use ki in dbz, remember that people in the afterlife can keep thier bodies and use ki

 

[StrymULTRA]

I literally don't care anymore about how Zamasu is, but some of the counters agasint him here are really bad. Tho we should still wait AKM giving their opinions on Zamasu becoming a will, as TTGL characters are Type 1 AE due of them being thoughts.

 

[Rabbit2002]

although I'm fine with acausality negation type 1
However, treating it as something that only applies to hakai is quite misleading
1/ Beerus says "A God destroying/kill another God affect space-time" he doesn't specifically mention it's hakai or its role as god of destruction. He mentioned any god
The 2nd reason I grant this acausality type 4 is simply because we have a lot of characters that achieve this by existing beyond logic or another logic. This case happen because Gods don't follow mortal logic. Also this case only happens when gods interact, heavily implying they operate in a their causal/logic system instead of a particular gods's ability that can be applied to all.

 

[sanicspood]

I literally don't care anymore about how Zamasu is, but some of the counters agasint him here are really bad. Tho we should still wait AKM giving their opinions on Zamasu becoming a will, as TTGL characters are Type 1 AE due of them being thoughts.

fr

 

[Maskofthedragon]

So you mean because this is Dragon Ball. they not qualify then

VSBW in a nutshell

 

[StrymULTRA]

also, i just remembered that infinite zamasu could use energy blasts. not too sure if beings of pure willpower could do that.

If we go with your logic Anti-Spiral can't be Type 1 AE as they can use evergy attacks and even physically attack with punch and kicks.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Bruh

 

[manu_zarri]

The 2nd reason I grant this acausality type 4 is simply because we have a lot of characters that achieve this by existing beyond logic or another logic. This case happen because Gods don't follow mortal logic. Also this case only happens when gods interact, heavily implying they operate in a their causal/logic system instead of a particular gods's ability that can be applied to all.

Ye but behind those dudes there is a particolar context, like NEP bubbles from jojolion which trascends the logic of calamity which manipulate logic (law), fate and other stuff. here the context is the logic of mortals, which is "the future didn't change" but it's actually changed due to having an inpact on space-time, im not even sure if this is actually acausality anymore..

EDIT: i remember that we proposed acausality type 1 negation, it does makes sense

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Forget whether this is DB or any other franchise.
Even as a default you don't assume a AE is a helpless entity on this site.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Forget whether this is DB or any other franchise.
Even as a default you don't assume a AE is a helpless entity on this site.

Unless they show otherwise, which was the logic used to argue it in the first place.

 

[Orange]

I mean do we even have rules for AE can't fight, preform action or something? Also saying AE that shoots ki blast isn't a "real" AE is wrong, it just means that AE in dbz shoots ki blast

 

[Nullflowerblush]

what does ghosts have to do with will?
also Ghosts and souls use ki in dbz, remember that people in the afterlife can keep thier bodies and use ki

cough
anyway

In db universe that would have only resulted in an different timeline

That still is not anything close to Acausality Negation, because again, he is not negating Acausality.

and hakai isn't history Erasure

Hmmm, the ability that erases a target from across history is not history erasure.
Actually, "across space-time" would be more fitting; I apologize.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Unless they show otherwise, which was the logic used to argue it in the first place.

Unless they show incapability of interaction you mean??

 

[Rez]

cough
anyway

That still is not anything close to Acausality Negation, because again, he is not negating Acausality.

Hmmm, the ability that erases a target from across history is not history erasure.
Actually, "across space-time" would be more fitting; I apologize.

Space time Erasure will also erase the target from past so no it's not

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Unless they show incapability of interaction you mean??

In general, yeah.

Which simply isn't the case here. That's all to be said about that.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

In general, yeah.

Which simply isn't the case here. That's all to be said about that.

Okay, now I got it. With my sleepy droooping eyelids I need 5-6 reads to undertand which side you were speking from lol.
Now my last comment befor sleep. Bye.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Ye but behind those dudes there is a particolar context, like NEP bubbles from jojolion which trascends the logic of calamity which manipulate logic (law), fate and other stuff. here the context is the logic of mortals, which is "the future didn't change" but it's actually changed due to having an inpact on space-time, im not even sure if this is actually acausality anymore..

EDIT: i remember that we proposed acausality type 1 negation, it does makes sense

but it's too limited
Like limit acausality type 1 negation or similar
However, this is not good if you look more closely. If not every character in the db already has acausality type 1, Acausality type 1 is usually naturally immune to time paradoxes even they exist (like Dr Paradox (ben10). In dragon ball this exists because the timeline splits in two to overcome/erase paradox. The term "mortal logic" is really a thing, as it describes how timelines try to solve **** timeline creating paradoxes (e.g. grandfather paradox) by rationalizing them into two timeline. The gods don't obey this, it's not like their one ability can be applied to everyone, it is only passive applie to them and their interact.

 

[manu_zarri]

but it's too limited
Like limit acausality type 1 negation or similar
However, this is not good if you look more closely. If not every character in the db already has acausality type 1, Acausality type 1 is usually naturally immune to time paradoxes even they exist (like Dr Paradox (ben10). In dragon ball this exists because the timeline splits in two to overcome/erase paradox. The term "mortal logic" is really a thing, as it describes how timelines try to solve **** timeline creating paradoxes (e.g. grandfather paradox) by rationalizing them into two timeline. The gods don't obey this, it's not like their one ability can be applied to everyone, it is only passive applie to them and their interact.

In the context they aren't talking about that tho. they are talking about black goku which there wasn't now, and they say that since there isn't he anymore, the future changed whitin his space-time, he was refering as "god destroying a god" implying that normally it wouldn't effect the space-time, and if it's killed by another god then it would change.

so basically acausality type 1 and acausality type 1 negation.
also it's not type 4 because we don't have details, and working in a different system is only theory, dosen't always apply to "practice". also every acasual works on a different casual system, just like in different ways. so ye type 1 and type 1 negation is fine

 

[Rabbit2002]

In the context they aren't talking about that tho. they are talking about black goku which there wasn't now, and they say that since there isn't he anymore, the future changed whitin his space-time, he was refering as "god destroying a god" implying that normally it wouldn't effect the space-time, and if it's killed by another god then it would change.

so basically acausality type 1 and acausality type 1 negation.
also it's not type 4 because we don't have details, and working in a different system is only theory, dosen't always apply to "practice". also every acasual works on a different casual system, just like in different ways. so ye type 1 and type 1 negation is fine

hmm make sense to me
So i will fix it to limited Acausality negation type 1
But God don't have acausal type 1 unless they wear time ring