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so while people like me and this site have massively opposing views regarding Tsukihime, I think there is some middle ground we can agree on and some undeniable scaling that needs to happen. this thread will solely focus on scaling to already established character tiers, as opposed to creating new tiers for characters entirely since that's a whole other ordeal.
this post is going to be scan heavy, even though a lot of this was already accepted because i want to accurately explain why key scales to what and also show multiple scans that prove these aren't outliers or anything.
starting off.
Base Sion should be upgraded to 30% Arcueid's tier for taking hits from and damaging Wallachia in Arcueid's body who can use 30% of her power.
base Sion can also dodge intercept and take a direct bloodlusted attack from Wallachia as Zepia that was directed towards Arcueid and deflect it.
all of this should upgrade base Sion to scale to Wallachia and 30% Arcueid as a whole in speed durability and AP.
Vampire Sion's durability needs to get upgraded accordingly, since it's only city level right now for some reason.
Shiki Tohno also needs a Melty Blood key that scales to Vampire Sion, since he survived attacks from her when he was hesitating to fight and then stomped her immediately without MEoDP (his eyes were closed to not kill her). even saying he would beat her down again and again until she gives up.
Tohno was also capable of reacting to a Tatari Arcueid spawned by Sion and killed her immediately even when caught off guard by the whole situation.
so Tohno needs a Melty Blood key that scales his AP speed and durability above Vampire Sion since he blitz stomped her with physical strikes.
Tohno also should have a "likely none notable" weakness for his Melty Blood key, since his eyes have evolved enough to where he can kill metaphysical Tatari information and Sion states it is likely that he can kill concepts beyond human comprehension.
now on with Akiha, she needs to have different keys and be massively upgraded. the key where she is rated as small building level for ripping out SHIKI's heart is her at her weakest, with her sharing half of her life force with Shiki on top of suppressing her powers to where she's using the bare minimum.
since she is sharing half of her life force with Shiki and using the bare minimum of her powers, this should be its own key and be named "Weakened" or something simple like that. you can keep the AP and speed ratings the same if you want. it's whatever.
what needs to change however is her later selves after she stops sharing half of her life force with Shiki once SHIKI dies and Shiki gets his stolen life force back, which makes Akiha able to use more of her power.
her black haired form in Melty Blood is her actively using her powers to suppress her Oni blood, while her Vermillion form is her using her Oni powers more freely, but restricting them with her willpower still to retain her sanity, since using her full power would cause a complete inversion impulse and loss of sanity similar to Arcueid's vampiric impulses.
it even states that her power as a demon hybrid is among the best of the best.
her black haired form in Melty Blood is capable of defeating Sion.
so base Akiha after not needing to share her life force anymore and not having to use the absolute bare minimum of her powers is superior to Sion.
Akiha when in her Vermillion state in Melty Blood is capable of defeating 50% Arcueid (not a Tatari).
so Vermillion Akiha in Melty Blood (that is still suppressed with her willpower mind you) is above 50% Arcueid.
now we have the strongest version of Akiha that absorbed Roa and fully fell to her inversion impulse, reaching full power and stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid, which would be referring to an Arcueid no longer restricting her bloodlust and operating at full capacity.
now i heard there was attempted arguments against this referring to Red Arcueid not restricting her bloodlust and was referring to the angry Arcueid in the Ciel Route since people seemed to think that this book came out before Melty Blood before concepts like Red Arcueid was established. this is disproven with Akiha's scaling chain I have presented so far, along with the fact that Dokuhan Plus Period came out in October 22, 2004, as shown here, while Melty Blood Re-Act, let alone the first game came out in May 30, 2004 before Dokuhan Plus Period, as you can see on the right side here. this means the concept of Red Arcueid and Arcueid's vampiric impulses were already well established,ignoring the fact Tsukihime already established all of this. regardless, this Akiha would scale above all of her Melty Blood incarnations just due to the fact it was a full inversion and she is capable of using her full power. what tier rating she would be is unknown, since you guys don't have a proper Red Arcueid/100% Arcueid key, but I guess Island Level or whatever? small country? idk. i don't agree with your actual ratings. i'm just trying to get the general scaling of characters correct.
it should also be pointed out that the wiki summary part of Akiha's profile on the TM Wiki saying her Origimi cannot effect Servants is fanfiction and isn't stated in the source material they cite. it only mentions Arcueid. and that is likely referring to the weakened Akiha, since she was weakened throughout the vast majority of Tsukihime. just thought i'd mention that.
also when she inverts completely in the Kohaku Route, she still seems to have her sanity despite being far more sadistic for the same reason SHIKI did (Roa). her absorbing Roa's concept is what inverted her completely but also kept her sanity, despite her being far darker.
now for the completely busted guy. Nanaya's power level and feats differ depending on what manifestation he is in and we need separate keys to reflect this.
for instance, White Len is just the unused part of Len's personality that was given shape as a Tatari and remained after the death of Wallachia.
White Len is the person behind the Tatari of Re-Act and Act Cadenza, along with being behind some of the Tatari in Actress Again aside from just Dust of Osiris.
we know that White Len's Tatari are less accurate than Wallachia's and presumably Osiris's as well, since Ciel makes a statement saying that Tatari Red Arcueid is not as strong as the real one.
in Tsukihime Plus Period, it further explains that White Len cannot always accurately replicate someone to make them 100% identical to their original self, since Nanaya under White Len cannot use the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
we know this is talking about White Len's Tatari and not Wallachia's because Wallachia even while directly in control of a Tatari Nanaya body himself was able to utilize the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
we do know however that even Wallachia's Tatari can have limits compared to the original like him not being able to draw out Tatari Arcueid's full power.
with that being said, the basic chain should go True Form Nanaya > Wallachia Tatari Nanaya > White Len Tatari Nanaya. and yes they all have their own feats.
starting with White Len Nanaya, he stalemates Kouma and is able to slice his neck physically without MEoDP, but this is especially impressive because Nanaya was injured from prior fights and his combat abilities were directly stated to be hindered, along with killing White Len who was sustaining his existence and leaving town beyond the region the Tatari rumors allowed him to keep existing.
he then kills White Len and goes to fight Kouma, despite his existence rapidly fading, being outside of town and being injured from previous fights that hindered his abilities and of course with no MEoDP. despite all of this, it results in a stalemate mutual kill.
we actually see how Nanaya would fare against Kouma in Act Cadenza without him being injured, but still killing White Len. he basically seems to make light of Kouma after killing him and then fades away since White Len no longer can supply him since she is dead.
so Nanaya as White Len's Tatari defeated Kishima easily in Act Cadenza, while in the Actress Again timeline he was injured from previous fights and had his abilities hindered and still stalemated Kouma.
Nanaya as a Tatari spawned by Wallachia to deal with intruders was able to toy with 50% Arcueid casually to the point she was forced to summon herself as Archetype-Earth to kill him the moment he decided to go on the offensive and rush her.
while we don't get any AP feats here, it should be considered to be likely higher since Wallachia can make more accurate representations of Tataris than White Len.
and since this is a casual Nanaya effortlessly dodging 50% Arc with his hands in his pockets even, his speed should be regarded as above White Len Nanaya even at his peak.
as for the real Nanaya, he has too many feats to list here, but you all seem to accept that he demolished a full power serious Nrvnqsr and cut Arcueid into 17 pieces before she can react for a long time now, so I'm going to skip over those.
what's way more impressive is that he was capable of blitzing a full power Crimson Red Vermillion Akiha with her power restored on top of absorbing Roa.
White Len also needs to get her AP and durability upgraded to scale to her Tatari Nanaya, which you guys forgot to do, since she's still Small Building level for competing with him.
also for a small little addition, I think Roa's description for his prime key should be slightly updated. it mentions that he defeats Altrouge, but it should also mention that he killed all of the True Ancestors, further solidifying his power.
summary:
Sion: Attack Potency: Island level (Damaged Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power and deflected an attack from Zepia meant to hurt or potentially kill Arcueid) | Island level (Significantly superior to her normal self. Capable of trading blows with the Night of Wallachia and his various Tatari Summons)
Durability: Island level (Took attacks from Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power) | Island level (Can take hits from and should be comparable to Zepia and significantly above her normal self)
Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Kept up with Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power and intercepted an attack from Zepia) | Massively Hypersonic (Significantly superior to her normal self. Can keep up with Zepia and his various Tatari attacks and could hit a hesitant Shiki Tohno)
Striking Strength: Island level | Island level
you can also put that small country stuff or whatever. don't know what that's about so I can't comment much.
Akiha Tohno: Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can rip out SHIKI's heart) | Island level (After regaining half of her life force and no longer being only able to only use the bare minimum of her powers, she is far stronger and defeated Sion) | Island level (As Crimson Red Vermillion, she defeated 50% Arcueid) | At least Island level (Inverted completely and reached full power. Stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid no longer restricting her bloodlust and would be significantly superior to her suppressed Melty Blood self)
Durability Small Building level | Island level | Island level | at least Island level
Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and kill SHIKI) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and defeat Sion) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and defeat 50% Arcueid) | Massively Hypersonic (Superior to other versions of herself and should be comparable to full power Red Arcueid)
Key: Weakened | Base | Restricted Crimson Red Vermillion | Full Power/Complete Inversion
Shiki: Attack Potency: Small Building level (Traded blows with Roa and easily killed Nero's weaker beasts, managed to smash apart a glass table with his head), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (By cutting along the lines and points of death of something, he realizes their death and ultimately destroys them) | Island level (Can severely harm Vampire Sion), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. | Attack Potency: Island level (As a Tatari of White Len, he defeated Kishima Kouma with little issue and stalemated him in Actress Again while injured and hindered from previous fights) | Island Level (As a Tatari of Wallachia, he should be superior to his White Len manifestation as a more accurate Tatari.), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. | Island Level (The real Nanaya should be superior to his Tatari manifestations), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
Durability: Small Building level ( (Was bitten by Nero's weaker beasts with no damage) | Island level (Withstood attacks from Vampire Sion) | Island level | Island level | Island level
Striking Strength: Small Building level | Island Level (Can harm Sion) | Island level (Sliced Kouma's neck) | Island level | Island level
Speed: Subsonic (Can move faster than the eye can see) with Massively Hypersonic reactions and combat speed (Traded blows with Roa and could block attacks from Ciel) | Massively Hypersonic (Can speed blitz Vampire Sion and react to a sudden close range attack from Tatari Arcueid and kill her before her attack lands) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with Kouma) | Massively Hypersonic (Casually toyed with 50% Arcueid to the point she was forced to summon Archetype-Earth to kill him) | Massively Hypersonic (Cut Arcueid into seventeen pieces before she could react. Reacted to Nrvnqsr mid-charge and easily defeated him despite bleeding to death due to Tohno being nearly eaten alive by his beasts. Moved faster than a full power Akiha could track)
Weakness: Shiki can't suppress his supernatural vision on his own, relying on the Mystic Eyes Killer, which will eventually be rendered obsolete over time. Shiki must get into close range to fully utilize his Mystic Eyes. Trying to visualize more complex concepts is very taxing on him mentally and can potentially even kill him. He cannot fully use his abilities without giving in to his Nanaya instincts on the brink of death. | Likely none notable. Shiki by the time of Melty Blood can destroy the metaphysical information of Tatari and is stated by Sion to probably be able to kill concepts beyond human comprehension | Lacks the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception | None notable | None notable
Key: Tsukihime Tohno | Melty Blood Tohno | White Len Tatari Nanaya | Wallachia Tatari Nanaya | True Form Nanaya/Tsukihime Nanaya
Roa: Island Level (Killed all of the True Ancestors except for Arcueid. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, one of the strongest Dead Apostle Ancestors, who could fight Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid Brunestud)
Key: Prime
this post is going to be scan heavy, even though a lot of this was already accepted because i want to accurately explain why key scales to what and also show multiple scans that prove these aren't outliers or anything.
starting off.
Base Sion should be upgraded to 30% Arcueid's tier for taking hits from and damaging Wallachia in Arcueid's body who can use 30% of her power.
base Sion can also dodge intercept and take a direct bloodlusted attack from Wallachia as Zepia that was directed towards Arcueid and deflect it.
all of this should upgrade base Sion to scale to Wallachia and 30% Arcueid as a whole in speed durability and AP.
Vampire Sion's durability needs to get upgraded accordingly, since it's only city level right now for some reason.
Shiki Tohno also needs a Melty Blood key that scales to Vampire Sion, since he survived attacks from her when he was hesitating to fight and then stomped her immediately without MEoDP (his eyes were closed to not kill her). even saying he would beat her down again and again until she gives up.
Tohno was also capable of reacting to a Tatari Arcueid spawned by Sion and killed her immediately even when caught off guard by the whole situation.
so Tohno needs a Melty Blood key that scales his AP speed and durability above Vampire Sion since he blitz stomped her with physical strikes.
Tohno also should have a "likely none notable" weakness for his Melty Blood key, since his eyes have evolved enough to where he can kill metaphysical Tatari information and Sion states it is likely that he can kill concepts beyond human comprehension.
now on with Akiha, she needs to have different keys and be massively upgraded. the key where she is rated as small building level for ripping out SHIKI's heart is her at her weakest, with her sharing half of her life force with Shiki on top of suppressing her powers to where she's using the bare minimum.
since she is sharing half of her life force with Shiki and using the bare minimum of her powers, this should be its own key and be named "Weakened" or something simple like that. you can keep the AP and speed ratings the same if you want. it's whatever.
what needs to change however is her later selves after she stops sharing half of her life force with Shiki once SHIKI dies and Shiki gets his stolen life force back, which makes Akiha able to use more of her power.
her black haired form in Melty Blood is her actively using her powers to suppress her Oni blood, while her Vermillion form is her using her Oni powers more freely, but restricting them with her willpower still to retain her sanity, since using her full power would cause a complete inversion impulse and loss of sanity similar to Arcueid's vampiric impulses.
link is here.
it even states that her power as a demon hybrid is among the best of the best.
link here.
her black haired form in Melty Blood is capable of defeating Sion.
so base Akiha after not needing to share her life force anymore and not having to use the absolute bare minimum of her powers is superior to Sion.
Akiha when in her Vermillion state in Melty Blood is capable of defeating 50% Arcueid (not a Tatari).
so Vermillion Akiha in Melty Blood (that is still suppressed with her willpower mind you) is above 50% Arcueid.
now we have the strongest version of Akiha that absorbed Roa and fully fell to her inversion impulse, reaching full power and stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid, which would be referring to an Arcueid no longer restricting her bloodlust and operating at full capacity.
link is here and here.
now i heard there was attempted arguments against this referring to Red Arcueid not restricting her bloodlust and was referring to the angry Arcueid in the Ciel Route since people seemed to think that this book came out before Melty Blood before concepts like Red Arcueid was established. this is disproven with Akiha's scaling chain I have presented so far, along with the fact that Dokuhan Plus Period came out in October 22, 2004, as shown here, while Melty Blood Re-Act, let alone the first game came out in May 30, 2004 before Dokuhan Plus Period, as you can see on the right side here. this means the concept of Red Arcueid and Arcueid's vampiric impulses were already well established,
it should also be pointed out that the wiki summary part of Akiha's profile on the TM Wiki saying her Origimi cannot effect Servants is fanfiction and isn't stated in the source material they cite. it only mentions Arcueid. and that is likely referring to the weakened Akiha, since she was weakened throughout the vast majority of Tsukihime. just thought i'd mention that.
also when she inverts completely in the Kohaku Route, she still seems to have her sanity despite being far more sadistic for the same reason SHIKI did (Roa). her absorbing Roa's concept is what inverted her completely but also kept her sanity, despite her being far darker.
now for the completely busted guy. Nanaya's power level and feats differ depending on what manifestation he is in and we need separate keys to reflect this.
for instance, White Len is just the unused part of Len's personality that was given shape as a Tatari and remained after the death of Wallachia.
White Len is the person behind the Tatari of Re-Act and Act Cadenza, along with being behind some of the Tatari in Actress Again aside from just Dust of Osiris.
we know that White Len's Tatari are less accurate than Wallachia's and presumably Osiris's as well, since Ciel makes a statement saying that Tatari Red Arcueid is not as strong as the real one.
in Tsukihime Plus Period, it further explains that White Len cannot always accurately replicate someone to make them 100% identical to their original self, since Nanaya under White Len cannot use the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
link is here.
we know this is talking about White Len's Tatari and not Wallachia's because Wallachia even while directly in control of a Tatari Nanaya body himself was able to utilize the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
we do know however that even Wallachia's Tatari can have limits compared to the original like him not being able to draw out Tatari Arcueid's full power.
with that being said, the basic chain should go True Form Nanaya > Wallachia Tatari Nanaya > White Len Tatari Nanaya. and yes they all have their own feats.
starting with White Len Nanaya, he stalemates Kouma and is able to slice his neck physically without MEoDP, but this is especially impressive because Nanaya was injured from prior fights and his combat abilities were directly stated to be hindered, along with killing White Len who was sustaining his existence and leaving town beyond the region the Tatari rumors allowed him to keep existing.
he then kills White Len and goes to fight Kouma, despite his existence rapidly fading, being outside of town and being injured from previous fights that hindered his abilities and of course with no MEoDP. despite all of this, it results in a stalemate mutual kill.
we actually see how Nanaya would fare against Kouma in Act Cadenza without him being injured, but still killing White Len. he basically seems to make light of Kouma after killing him and then fades away since White Len no longer can supply him since she is dead.
so Nanaya as White Len's Tatari defeated Kishima easily in Act Cadenza, while in the Actress Again timeline he was injured from previous fights and had his abilities hindered and still stalemated Kouma.
Nanaya as a Tatari spawned by Wallachia to deal with intruders was able to toy with 50% Arcueid casually to the point she was forced to summon herself as Archetype-Earth to kill him the moment he decided to go on the offensive and rush her.
while we don't get any AP feats here, it should be considered to be likely higher since Wallachia can make more accurate representations of Tataris than White Len.
and since this is a casual Nanaya effortlessly dodging 50% Arc with his hands in his pockets even, his speed should be regarded as above White Len Nanaya even at his peak.
as for the real Nanaya, he has too many feats to list here, but you all seem to accept that he demolished a full power serious Nrvnqsr and cut Arcueid into 17 pieces before she can react for a long time now, so I'm going to skip over those.
what's way more impressive is that he was capable of blitzing a full power Crimson Red Vermillion Akiha with her power restored on top of absorbing Roa.
White Len also needs to get her AP and durability upgraded to scale to her Tatari Nanaya, which you guys forgot to do, since she's still Small Building level for competing with him.
also for a small little addition, I think Roa's description for his prime key should be slightly updated. it mentions that he defeats Altrouge, but it should also mention that he killed all of the True Ancestors, further solidifying his power.
summary:
Sion: Attack Potency: Island level (Damaged Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power and deflected an attack from Zepia meant to hurt or potentially kill Arcueid) | Island level (Significantly superior to her normal self. Capable of trading blows with the Night of Wallachia and his various Tatari Summons)
Durability: Island level (Took attacks from Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power) | Island level (Can take hits from and should be comparable to Zepia and significantly above her normal self)
Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Kept up with Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power and intercepted an attack from Zepia) | Massively Hypersonic (Significantly superior to her normal self. Can keep up with Zepia and his various Tatari attacks and could hit a hesitant Shiki Tohno)
Striking Strength: Island level | Island level
you can also put that small country stuff or whatever. don't know what that's about so I can't comment much.
Akiha Tohno: Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can rip out SHIKI's heart) | Island level (After regaining half of her life force and no longer being only able to only use the bare minimum of her powers, she is far stronger and defeated Sion) | Island level (As Crimson Red Vermillion, she defeated 50% Arcueid) | At least Island level (Inverted completely and reached full power. Stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid no longer restricting her bloodlust and would be significantly superior to her suppressed Melty Blood self)
Durability Small Building level | Island level | Island level | at least Island level
Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and kill SHIKI) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and defeat Sion) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with and defeat 50% Arcueid) | Massively Hypersonic (Superior to other versions of herself and should be comparable to full power Red Arcueid)
Key: Weakened | Base | Restricted Crimson Red Vermillion | Full Power/Complete Inversion
Shiki: Attack Potency: Small Building level (Traded blows with Roa and easily killed Nero's weaker beasts, managed to smash apart a glass table with his head), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (By cutting along the lines and points of death of something, he realizes their death and ultimately destroys them) | Island level (Can severely harm Vampire Sion), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. | Attack Potency: Island level (As a Tatari of White Len, he defeated Kishima Kouma with little issue and stalemated him in Actress Again while injured and hindered from previous fights) | Island Level (As a Tatari of Wallachia, he should be superior to his White Len manifestation as a more accurate Tatari.), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. | Island Level (The real Nanaya should be superior to his Tatari manifestations), ignores conventional durability with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
Durability: Small Building level ( (Was bitten by Nero's weaker beasts with no damage) | Island level (Withstood attacks from Vampire Sion) | Island level | Island level | Island level
Striking Strength: Small Building level | Island Level (Can harm Sion) | Island level (Sliced Kouma's neck) | Island level | Island level
Speed: Subsonic (Can move faster than the eye can see) with Massively Hypersonic reactions and combat speed (Traded blows with Roa and could block attacks from Ciel) | Massively Hypersonic (Can speed blitz Vampire Sion and react to a sudden close range attack from Tatari Arcueid and kill her before her attack lands) | Massively Hypersonic (Can keep up with Kouma) | Massively Hypersonic (Casually toyed with 50% Arcueid to the point she was forced to summon Archetype-Earth to kill him) | Massively Hypersonic (Cut Arcueid into seventeen pieces before she could react. Reacted to Nrvnqsr mid-charge and easily defeated him despite bleeding to death due to Tohno being nearly eaten alive by his beasts. Moved faster than a full power Akiha could track)
Weakness: Shiki can't suppress his supernatural vision on his own, relying on the Mystic Eyes Killer, which will eventually be rendered obsolete over time. Shiki must get into close range to fully utilize his Mystic Eyes. Trying to visualize more complex concepts is very taxing on him mentally and can potentially even kill him. He cannot fully use his abilities without giving in to his Nanaya instincts on the brink of death. | Likely none notable. Shiki by the time of Melty Blood can destroy the metaphysical information of Tatari and is stated by Sion to probably be able to kill concepts beyond human comprehension | Lacks the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception | None notable | None notable
Key: Tsukihime Tohno | Melty Blood Tohno | White Len Tatari Nanaya | Wallachia Tatari Nanaya | True Form Nanaya/Tsukihime Nanaya
Roa: Island Level (Killed all of the True Ancestors except for Arcueid. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, one of the strongest Dead Apostle Ancestors, who could fight Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid Brunestud)
Key: Prime
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