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@Promestein the difference is the other characters that tries to time travel are reliant on the boundary, the black beast is the boundary so it's not the same thing here.
@Fixxed You mean the explanation of moving through worlds as different planets? Because that's not headcanon. And its proof it's actual movement.
Believing it's a parallel universe just going back in time proves how little you know about the story as that's the timeline resets are the entire plot of the series. And even if it's a parallel universe you're still going back in time so that's still moving back in linear time.
@Fixxed You mean the explanation of moving through worlds as different planets? Because that's not headcanon. And its proof it's actual movement.
Believing it's a parallel universe just going back in time proves how little you know about the story as that's the timeline resets are the entire plot of the series. And even if it's a parallel universe you're still going back in time so that's still moving back in linear time.
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Unfortunately, nothing that I read until now indicates Immeasurable speed.
Obviously, characters moving in time thanks to the Boundary doesn't qualify, and even if it did it would be limited to the Boundary itself.
Regarding the Black Beast, him being the Boundary seems more like a simple Omnipresence, and considering that the Boundary itself have access to all points in time he can Time Travel thanks to that. There are no indications that anyone of them travel throught time thanks to sheer speed, but they do thanks to the properties of the Boundary.
And if the feat of the Black Beast is brought up, there really needs to be a separate revision to upgrade him. Because either he is the Boundary and he is Low 1-C or he isn't the Boundary.
Obviously, characters moving in time thanks to the Boundary doesn't qualify, and even if it did it would be limited to the Boundary itself.
Regarding the Black Beast, him being the Boundary seems more like a simple Omnipresence, and considering that the Boundary itself have access to all points in time he can Time Travel thanks to that. There are no indications that anyone of them travel throught time thanks to sheer speed, but they do thanks to the properties of the Boundary.
And if the feat of the Black Beast is brought up, there really needs to be a separate revision to upgrade him. Because either he is the Boundary and he is Low 1-C or he isn't the Boundary.
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I have a misunderstanding about the black beast.
question, how did he pass through time, did he have to enter the boundary too?
or like someone who fell into the cauldron and passed through time?
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The Black Beast literally is the Boundary. We just talked about this in the thread.
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What about this comment:
Also, Black Beast = Boundary is not something that is accepted in the wiki at the moment considering that the Black Beast is not Low 1-C and there is no scan of it even in the profile, so I don't think that this argument can be used for now.
Because if this is right than it disproves that the Black Beast is the Boundary itself, and it's much more credible interpretation.
Also, Black Beast = Boundary is not something that is accepted in the wiki at the moment considering that the Black Beast is not Low 1-C and there is no scan of it even in the profile, so I don't think that this argument can be used for now.
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Even if black beast=boundary it still doesn't have anything to do with immeasurable speed tbh, if anything it will just get an omnipresence on profile (although I highly doubt that black beast is a transcendent realm/low 1-C since 5-A characters can physically fight against it on Earth)
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What I'm saying is that you have to change your original speed into immeasurable to even move in there otherwise you'd get nowhere, you'd have to insert a higher speed to get to anywhere cause the boundary doesn't auto flow you into different timelines.
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That's what I'm saying
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More like the Boundary is a Stargate that lets you go through time, and it has a special "I'm not weak" verification if you want to use it.
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I don't see where the part says that there are certain speed criteria in order to be able to move at the boundary, all I get is feats about strong will which will make you resist the boundary existence erasure.
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(Said 5-A characters wielded weapons that were made to defeat it aka Nox Nyctores)
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That could be too.
Dont have a dog in this race. But it is a highly interesting thread as I feel it could impact other verses as well.
Enjoying my popcorn.
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Same exact thing for me. There's honestly things coming from this discussion that I feel should warrant another look at the rules for I.S., but whether they get put in a thread for it is a different story.
Vietthai96
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1. When did being a gateway = the same as the main thing???
2. Did Black Beast actually demonstrates all the qualities belong to the Boundary, or we all clinging to the only statement about Black Beast is Cauldron this, is the Boundary that, which likely hold no weight at this point. And iic, Black Beast is, again the fusion between Ragna and Nu-13, they both fall into the cauldron then we don't even know what happen after, the Black Beast suddenly appear in the past (which according to the people of that time is, that Beast suddenly appear out of no where)
3. Seithr is a part of Black Beast, yes. Seithr is the Black Beast itself, no. Like....what, Seithr is just a type of energy, or straight from the verse itself - particle substance. its origin is unknown (or not), Black Beast is just a beast made entirely from Seithr and born from the fusion between Ragna and Nu-13, when it die the leftover Seithr intoxicated the world. How in the world Black Beast is Omnipresent via Seithr, while Seithr hold nothing which is Black Beast's counsciousness, mind and soul; just a leftover, residue substance, and Black Beast is confirmed to be destroy because its core got destroyed by Six Heroes, the core which actually hold the beast existence like mind and soul, etc....????
We should have better evidences, or this gonna be brought up in the future if this thread get rejected,
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I mean all of those 5-A characters possess a long list of low-1C hax and resistance that their pages are pretty much walls of text
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I already said "physically", don't know why you bring hax here, plus black beast is not bigger than a planet so being a low 1-C realm sounds wrong
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That's a way bigger assumption to say it's like a super computer now with a strength verification code when I already said it's not a time machine. And even then that verification analogy would only go to resistances to sither
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Since when did you have to be gigantic to qualify for a tier? Also, you're completely ignoring that the Black Beast can change its size.
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Have I ever said that he need to be gigantic to qualify for a tier? Stop twisting my word, I only said that his size is not as big as a low 1-C realm (which is the argument for low 1-C AP in the first place) as there is no actual evidence about that and its profile doesn't even have any scan about it being able to change the size to be equal to the boundary
Low 1-C black beast is kinda relevant because some people actually believe that being a boundary is same as having immeasurable speed, although I have no idea why being omnipresent gains immeasurable speed
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Glass, it seems like your claims have been rejected, both by our staff and arguments provided by regular members. As such, I would appreciate if you try to be reasonable, and help us properly revise the BlazBlue character profile pages' speed sections. This thread is turning into a neverending waste of time, and we need to wrap it up now. Thank you.
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Isn't omnipresent > immeasurable anyway, all other things being equal?
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No, omnipresence is a state of being
Vietthai96
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No, Omnipresent is a state of being, it have nothing to do with speed equal, speed is physical movement
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It doesn't inherently need to say that cause we already know what happens when that speed criteria isn't met, you wind up lost in the boundary like hakumen until someone who actually meets that speed criteria could pull him out.
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Which hasn't been shown to be a speed criteria.
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I'm not talking about speed being equal.
I mean if you have two opponents with equal AP and abilities and one is omnipresent and one is immeasurable, the omnipresent one should win.
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I already explained how moving in a 2nd temporal dimension requires immeasurable as the main criteria to no get stuck in the boundary. Which plenty of OPs keep ducking my point on movement through multiple temporal dimensions.
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Except you never proved the existence of a second dimension of time.
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https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-blazblue-downgrade.131371/post-4494403
Medeus and gilver thrown there point on this out there that the boundary would be a 5D space due to having a 2nd temporal dimensional axis to these alternate realities with their own spacetimes and getting there would require movement through the 2nd temporal dimension which you can't do via time travel cause it would be a different line of time you can't reach on only a x axis of linear time and it can't be dimensional travel cause time would have to be presumed relative within all different spacetimes.
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Plus the black beast was already mentioned of being 5D via it being the boundary and was elaborated on having a 2nd temporal dimension. Even though it doesn't help the black beast for speed but it helps everyone else in terms of speed cause it proves there's a 2nd temporal dimension in the boundary with it being 5D.
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@ThanatosX The scan on the atmosphere being time compared to the vastness of space that is the boundary and entering into planets implies speed, because you're traveling to other worlds through time, that's not a simple time travel mechanic.
The scan literally says the black beast is the boundary itself from a highly credible source, where exactly is the contradiction?
@Delta333 said characters needed specific weapons made to harm the beast and their 5-A ratings scale from it in the first place.
Also the black beast does have size manipulation on its page.
@Fixxed it is the boundary, why would it enter what is essentially itself?
@Vietthai96 you're not making any sense with this line, elaborate on this.
You mean it being a chaotic thing that can inflict hax passively and has endless amounts of seithr that comes from its being just like how the boundary has endless amounts of seithr? Because yes it has plenty of connections to it being the boundary.
Everything the black beast does is related to seithr, it's mere presence allows it to go everywhere and anywhere, and its dead body spread all the seithr across the planet. Also no the black beast isn't' destroyed, the body still exists, which is where all the seithr comes from.
@Antvasima Again stop jumping the gun for once and let us finish with the debate. It's not the end of the world if this thread lasts longer if it means we finish discussing this stuff and not have another thread debating the same arguments that haven't been concluded.
The scan literally says the black beast is the boundary itself from a highly credible source, where exactly is the contradiction?
@Delta333 said characters needed specific weapons made to harm the beast and their 5-A ratings scale from it in the first place.
Also the black beast does have size manipulation on its page.
@Fixxed it is the boundary, why would it enter what is essentially itself?
@Vietthai96 you're not making any sense with this line, elaborate on this.
You mean it being a chaotic thing that can inflict hax passively and has endless amounts of seithr that comes from its being just like how the boundary has endless amounts of seithr? Because yes it has plenty of connections to it being the boundary.
Everything the black beast does is related to seithr, it's mere presence allows it to go everywhere and anywhere, and its dead body spread all the seithr across the planet. Also no the black beast isn't' destroyed, the body still exists, which is where all the seithr comes from.
@Antvasima Again stop jumping the gun for once and let us finish with the debate. It's not the end of the world if this thread lasts longer if it means we finish discussing this stuff and not have another thread debating the same arguments that haven't been concluded.
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Medeus litteraly just said they were neutral and waiting from proof from the "pro-immeasurable" side.
They also emphasizes the "could" a lot. So I'm asking again: where's your proof of a 2nd temporal dimension?
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I am not saying that speed is not involved in this, because obviously the characters needs to travel inside the Boundary to reach the gateway to the time they want to reach.
But there is no evidence that the speed needed to travel thought the Boundary is Immeasurable. The Boundary is simply a dimension where a person can go into different points in time, but if you are not powerful enough it will erase you. I don't see anything that hints toward Immeasurable speed being needed to travel in it.
On top of this, they need the Boundary to travel throught time, which by itself disprove them having Immeasurable speed because if they did have it they wouldn't need to go to the Boundary in the first place.
A character with Immeasurable speed is able to travel throught the time axis without the need to go to any other dimension. Time Travel in BlazBlue is archivable only because of the properties of the Boundary, therefore it's not Immeasurable speed unless a supporter of the verse is able to bring a feat of a character being able to travel throught time without the Boundary being involved in the slightest.
The statement of the Black Beast being the Boundary itself was already disproven in this comment:
And Vietthai96 explanation about the origin of the Black Beast further proves that he is not the Boundary at all:
And on top of this, the Wiki currently doesn't accept that the Black Beast is the Boundary, otherwise he would be Low 1-C as explained before.
Overall it really looks like we are going in circle with the arguments, so new points should be brought up because otherwise I think it's pointless to continue the debate since both parties seems unable to reach an agreement.
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@ThanatosX Again, it's needed by lower tier characters, not the top tiers who do not remotely use the boundary to time travel as there's no need for them to time travel at all.
The comment didn't debunk it at all, the quote literally has Clavis mention what the black beast is and what happened when Celica's dad was researching the boundary.
Vietthal's explanation on the origin of the black beast isn't a debunk because it being a fusion of two characters doesn't remotely change the fact it's an out of control cauldron, every description of the black beast talks about it being something connected to the boundary as if it's the same thing.
The comment didn't debunk it at all, the quote literally has Clavis mention what the black beast is and what happened when Celica's dad was researching the boundary.
Vietthal's explanation on the origin of the black beast isn't a debunk because it being a fusion of two characters doesn't remotely change the fact it's an out of control cauldron, every description of the black beast talks about it being something connected to the boundary as if it's the same thing.
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Boundary is connected to all dimension
(https://gyazo.com/59335f6d9464aced1aacf404922af94e)
and people can go to another event(refering to time, past-future) by going to the boundary
(https://gyazo.com/0ef30f15362dd717905f2f06fefa4dd4)
Meaning the boundary would have to have a 2nd temporal dimension to connect to time and other dimensions.
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All of the feats of Time Travel brought up until now are done by using the Boundary. If there are feats of characters being able to travel throught time without using the Boundary then scans about that should be provided.
If the character that says that statement is not sure himself about what the Black Beast is, then he is an unrelable source. Eithet the Black Beast is a Cauldron of he is the Boundary. He can't be both a gateway and the dimension itself. So either the numerous description of him being a Cauldron are wrong or Clavis is wrong.
And the fact that the Black Beast is the fusion of two characters disproves him being the Boundary, because the Boundary already existed before this two characters fused.
And as I said before, the Black Beast being the Boundary is not accepted by the Wiki as of now, so to bring up this feat a CRT to accept this needs to be made.
Again, the same arguments are being repeated in circle, so I think there is no need to continue this debate.
I will state once again that none of the stuff brought up here is Immeasurable speed by our current standards, and I am personally in agreement with the downgrade.
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