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Immeasurable speed blazblue downgrade

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ThanatosX said:
So there are characters that are able to move throught time without using the Boundary? If so, could you make a collection of scans and videos of all the feats of a character being able to move throught time without using the Boundary?
Because if I am understanding this correctly, than I think this should qualify for the current classification of Immeasurable speed and THIS feats should be used as justifications for this rating rather than the current "able to move throught the Boundary". But context is obviously important, so the scans would be extremely useful.
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Agreed.
 
Antvasima said:
I would also appreciate further input from @Qawsedf234 .
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I have nothing to add that Thanatos didn't already say.

My issue has more or less always been that the justification seems reliant on something that really just doesn't scale to speed in the normal universes.
 
what glassman said is just about transcending time space and that makes this thread unfinished.


as for Blackbeast they don't prove immeasurable at all because they don't pass the time using sheer speed at least from this scene
Theglassman12 said:
@ThanatosX The black beast is the major one. Since it goes back in time in every single timeline reset in Calamity Trigger. The only other being that scales to the same feat is Take Mikazuchi as it's the same type of creature as the black beast. That and Requiem but it barely does much besides being a replacement for god.
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@Fixxed where did I say just transcending time and space and nothing more for the black beast? And the scene literally cuts to the past where the black beast goes rampant and causes the dark war. That's blatant proof right there.
 
Megaraptor149 said:
Its still time travel tho, there is no statement there that shows that they went to the past-present-future with sheer speed.
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i know, i agree with the downgrade

im just trying to prove that Boundary is connected to another dimension/time, and the reason they could travel to another time period is because boundary's nature
 
I don't know if there is any other feat regarding Immeasurable speed because i stop caring about the verse long time ago. But i heavily disagree with scaling to the Black Beast:
1. Somehow the statement about it is contradicted, one said it is cauldron go hireway, and cauldron is just gateway to Boundary, other said it is the Boundary itself.
2. It is not Higher Dimensional being, lack Omnipresent across timeline/all point in time

That it, though
 
Vietthai96 said:
1. Somehow the statement about it is contradicted, one said it is cauldron go hireway, and cauldron is just gateway to Boundary, other said it is the Boundary itself.
2. It is not Higher Dimensional being, lack Omnipresent across timeline/all point in time
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1. The statement isn’t contradictory, it was a cauldron gone haywire, that is now a gateway to the boundary, because it is the boundary itself. It is quite literally a walking boundary.
2. It is higher dimensional due to being the boundary, and existing outside of reason. It is also omnipresent, because it devours all possibilities anywhere whenever there’s a reset / phenomenon intervention is used.
 
Comicgyal said:
1. The statement isn’t contradictory, it was a cauldron gone haywire, that is now a gateway to the boundary, because it is the boundary itself. It is quite literally a walking boundary.
2. It is higher dimensional due to being the boundary, and existing outside of reason. It is also omnipresent, because it devours all possibilities anywhere whenever there’s a reset / phenomenon intervention is used.
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1. Again, still contradicted, a gateway to boundary is not boundary itself. And this Black Beast is just a simple fusion between Ragna and Nu-12, fall to the cauldron, and appear in the past as Black Beast, wrecking havoc
2. Scan, proof, or you talk about an entirely different Black Beast which have nothing to do with scaling, and never actually appear and fight anything??
 
Immeasurable via The Boundary.

Disagree with Immeasurable Speed from Blazblue. The context there is more directed to Time Travel. The mechanism of entering The Boundary to access a temporal point that is useful for ranging all dimensions is not a good argument to say it is Immeasurable Speed. Because after all, this is only a mechanism from The Boundary, not individual characters.

What made me even more convinced that this was nothing more than Dimensional Travel was that there was no evidence that they could access temporal points and travel through time without the help of The Boundary. For the sake of simplicity, I will bring the analogy of the "wormhole" theory used for Time Travel in some science fiction. This time I will bring the implementation of the wormhole in Steins Gate.

The way wormhole and The Boundary work is very similar. The wormhole connects the realities so that it becomes a shortcut for the user, in the wormhole there is a side effect that will destroy anything that wants to enter it, and the main point is that entering the wormhole will put the user on a 0 second timescale and can go back in time which is sound similar to Immeasurable Speed but it is not and will only be classified as Time Travel and Dimensional Travel.

Just like The Boundary which is said anything that enters it will be destroyed unless it has a strong superpower will that can withstand the effects of madness. We can agree that The Boundary is a wormhole version of Blazblue. Even if there's a description where you get to entering The Boundary to set the time scale to 0 when entering it and even traveling to a temporal point such as going back in time is not an adequate criterion for Immeasurable Speed.

Unless you want to say that everyone who can withstand an effect from wormhole shouldbe atleast Infinite Speed to Immeasurable Speed (because they can acess multiple temporal scale, and the time from them is literal 0). But no that's not how Immeasurable Speed works.

Simply put, based on Occam's Razor principle, entering The Boundary or Wormhole is not an Immeasurable Speed because it takes advantage of conditions that resemble only not actual sheer speed feats.

Blackbeast Another Immeasurable Speed Scans.

And for Blackbeast's Immeasurable speed. I will explain why the reasons for Black Beast also won't adequate to the Immeasurable Speed Rating. Scans that you provide are not solid enough to follow the standard of immeasurable speed, because based on the existing video, the character does fall into Cauldron without any indication back to the past with the Sheer Speed which is the point of the time travel using other media. We know it's not immeasurable speed. And I didn't see him at all going back to past. This is my question, is that a blackbeast that falls in Cauldron? Whatever the answer, at least in the scene it doesn't show someone's speed so that it can return to the past using Sheer Speed. This is the main point I want to convey where the show is really nothing to do with the criteria "speed".

Literally disagree with Immeasurable Speed.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Normal member can't ping other
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Wait that's seriously a rule? Lmao. Weird but uh sure

And yeah as others have brought up, the using the Boundary is seems kinda iffy to use immeasurable for.
If there isn't anything else than the downgrade seems reasonable.
I've said my peace here now
 
Black Beast is not the Boundary, the one who stated that(Clavis) even confessed that he have no idea what Black Beast is.

What he means by saying Black Beast is the "same" as the Boundary is to talk about how both of them is equally dangerous to humankind


"...And then, the Black Beast appeared, right?"

"Exactly. The Black Beast was born from the Cauldron that was discovered in the same place as the Susano'o Unit. That place, too, was where they conducted the test experiment."

Shuuichirou Ayatsuki had made contact with the Boundary, and from the Boundary the Black Beast came. If it was only based on that fact, it was possible to say that his experiment had unleashed the Black Beast.

Celica hung her head. Her long hair weakly slipped from the nape of her neck to her chest. The hands on her knees clenched tightly.

"Is my father... still alive?"

"I do not know. It has only been a few days since we have learned the truth that his experiment was conducted in the same place where the Black Beast had appeared, as well as the same time. But if we could hear the details of the story from Shuuichirou Ayatsuki himself, we might be able to get hold of clues regarding the Black Beast."

Having spoken that far, Clavis sunk his frail body into the wheelchair. Fatigue ran across him as he exhaled a deep, long breath.

A vampire that could age and also become tired. Ragna got an interest to that unusual notion.

"...The Black Beast. It is a monster born from the Boundary... no, it is the Boundary itself. It is not something a man should associate with. Humanity is still immature. Although their immaturity was the reason for their curiosity, a contact with the Boundary must not happen."
Click to expand...
 
Theglassman12 said:
Ah yes, claiming I have no knowledge on a subject while not elaborating what's the problem. Great way of debating someone.
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Okay, i Will explain again.
I think you agree for "Boundary Not giving immeasurable speed anymore"

So i Will explain the next case (Black beast).
Theglassman12 said:
@ThanatosX The black beast is the major one. Since it goes back in time in every single timeline reset in Calamity Trigger. The only other being that scales to the same feat is Take Mikazuchi as it's the same type of creature as the black beast. That and Requiem but it barely does much besides being a replacement for god.
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in this video there is absolutely no correlation with immeasurable speed, I have watched it but there is only an explanation of someone who fell in the cauldron and met a woman and finished. WHICH PART RELATED TO THE SPEED OF THAT VIDEO. that's why I say you don't know how immeasurable speed works. it might sound a little harsh but you like to give explanations but it doesn't match the scans given. and considering your explanation it is clear that it is not an immeasurable speed criterion. the point you emphasize is just going back to the past. but what I'm asking is "How did he/her go to the past". is this enough?
 
Theglassman12 said:
And the scene literally cuts to the past where the black beast goes rampant and causes the dark war. That's blatant proof right there.
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Did you mean to link something else? Because the video you showed was about Jin's False Hero Ending. The only line I can kinda assume is the Black Beast is him stating he knows what will happen, but he also says he only travelled into the past because of the cauldren.
 
If the Black Beast is the Boundary and all that, whatever, that's more acceptable than slapping on Immeasurable for moving in the Boundary, though if the Black Beast is the Boundary and also Low 1-C I feel like you should be making a thread more substantiative than this one.

But like... yeah, just because these things happen doesn't mean it's because of speed, and examples of time travel that are enabled by another thing - the Boundary - keep on being brought up as examples of Immeasurable speed when they're just blatantly not.

But... is the Black Beast the Boundary? I don't see anything saying this from other sources and our own page just says it's a Cauldron, not the Boundary itself. Again, if you're trying to revise this just make a thread and get it on the page.
 
@Vietthai96 that's not a contradiction, a cauldron is a gateway to the boundary and that's it, the black beast is it going out of control and having its power go haywire.

It exists anywhere there's seithr so saying it lacks some form of omnipresence isn't really true as seithr's a part of its being.

@EinelRendezvous we're not talking about the characters moving through the boundary as a speed feat anymore.

@Fixxed The black beast went through time with its powers.

@Qawsedf234 Jin travels into the past through the cauldron, the black beast appears right after, though that's my bad because I forgot the novel elaborates further what happens in the scene.

"Mr. Hero." The girl's lips teasingly spoke.
"How would you like to become a real hero?" The wind blew through the girl's hair.For him, it was a moment of one's end, and one's beginning.
Before long, a rumble could be heard from far away. It gradually grew larger and more violent, shaking both the night sky and solid earth... and became a beast's roar that was thundering throughout the world. It was a roar that made every existence shiver. The being that would be called Black Beast, a monster that drove the world to destruction, let out its first cry.
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@Promestein here's the text for the black beast and the boundary.

"...The Black Beast. It is a monster born from the Boundary... no, it is the Boundary itself. It is not something a man should associate with. Humanity is still immature. Although their immaturity was the reason for their curiosity, a contact with the Boundary must not happen."
Click to expand...
 
Is that literal? Is it referred to again? Given that the Black Beast is more often referred to as a Cauldron, a gateway to the Boundary, rather than the Boundary itself... this seems like a question of whether or not this like, actually makes any sense or is consistent.
 
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It's mentioned by Clavis, who knows virtually anything about the world due to his status as an observer, so his word should be taken as legit. The black beast being stated to be a cauldron is mentioned once by Terumi as it going out of control, which isn't the exact same as a normal cauldron. The azure grimoire, which came from the black beast itself, is stated more to be a normal cauldron.
 
Alright. I'll sit this out then. I stand by simply moving through the Boundary not meaning anything, though. Just get better justifications and make a proper upgrade thread if the Black Beast is gonna be Low 1-C.
 
The black beast being Low 1-C is a whole nother can of worms that I'm not touching until I finish some other revisions. Plan on doing some changes to the verse if I'm in the mood and once more translations come out. Right now I'm just focusing on speed.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The black beast went through time with its powers.
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Yeah i know, but i still disagree with blackbeast immeasurable speed, that's because he lack context of speed.(because you only give an explanations if black beast through time to past, but without speed context)
 
Him moving through time as his powers in the boundary with everything else I've said that you keep ignoring is the proof of speed.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Him moving through time as his powers in the boundary with everything else I've said that you keep ignoring is the proof of speed
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Then can you send how exactly he through time to past? Because i still don't see about this feats. Or this?
Theglassman12 said:
@ThanatosX The black beast is the major one. Since it goes back in time in every single timeline reset in Calamity Trigger. The only other being that scales to the same feat is Take Mikazuchi as it's the same type of creature as the black beast. That and Requiem but it barely does much besides being a replacement for god.

Only other ones I can think of is Terumi just going to alternate realities in Continuum Shift but moving to alternate timelines apparently doesn't count so whatever.
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but I still see a difference about what a black beast is
Catpija said:
Black Beast is not the Boundary, the one who stated that(Clavis) even confessed that he have no idea what Black Beast is.

What he means by saying Black Beast is the "same" as the Boundary is to talk about how both of them is equally dangerous to humankind
Click to expand...
 
it should be noted that even you can also go to the past using your own power but this will still get time travel abilities if the context to the past has nothing to do with speed
 
It's still done through movement and not some otherworldly ability like opening portals, so it should count for speed.
 
I mean. No. You can move through these spaces without Immeasurable speed. We've been over this, this is something that has been discussed at length in the past.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Literally an explanation that describes it as moving through space to other planets or stars. So the context for it is speed.
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1. if there is no definite explanation then it will only be considered as a headcanon, because it mentions travel to another dimension but there is no explanation about passing through time to the past.


2. if we talk about context there, it is only explained to travel to another dimension which is included in the dimensional travel.

Dimensional Travel is the ability to move through alternate universes (or "dimensions"), crossing over across different planes of existence to reach other, far-off locations. This is rarely an ability on its own, often being achieved through other means such as Teleportation used to teleport into other universes, and Portal Creation used to open doorways into these universes.
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just an IMO cause I don't know Blazblue. it is possible if the black beast goes to a parallel universe but the time setting is in the past. anyway everything is just dimensional travel
 
Fixxed said:
just an IMO cause I don't know Blazblue. it is possible if the black beast goes to a parallel universe but the time setting is in the past. anyway everything is just dimensional travel
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Hold on here this wouldn't be dimensional travel cause he's still going through time in this case perpendicularly on the 2nd temporal dimension, which alot of OPs have been still ducking my point on that for a good 3 pages anytime I bring it up and just ignoring it cause he's moving through multiple temporal dimensions of time.
 
Fixxed said:
Oh sorry, can you send again?
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https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-blazblue-downgrade.131371/post-4495344

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-blazblue-downgrade.131371/post-4496381

These two points got lost in the last page. But I think I did make this point twice and even medeus at one point mentioned but you only answered it back with question that had a little confusion in it when you asked "How does the logic of a creature that exists in the 1st temporal dimension but is able to pass through the 2nd temporal dimension get immeasurable speed, but the original creature from the 2nd temporal dimension does not get immeasurable speed?"
Well that's easy the creature in the 2nd temporal dimension would be moving above the linear x axis of time but also be able to move across from it like drawing graph lines that have free space to move in.
And most OPs counters by saying the rest of cast movement through the boundary would just be timetravel and not immeasurable speed only really works if the boundary was something like a timemachince with set date to launch you through time or just a portal that sends you through time automatically the moment you step through it, even if you have all the resists to not die in there you'd just be stuck like hakumen just floating . Which means even if every character had alternative ways to go back in time, the boundary would be the lowest common denominator choice cause without immeasurable speed your just stuck in the equivalent of the ocean with no paddle for years to hopefully get good fortune to get out.
 
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