I'm full of bad ideas

[ALRF]

Anyways. Can CCC or Power Null get Meth? These are usually considered some of her best bets. There's also that attack noping (I think it was Law based?) which people usually argue quite frequently for BB.

Power Null can definitely affect him but she needs to make sure it can attack him, else he can just change the environment and have jaws traps the contents of the Grail.

Dunno about C.C.C

 

[FateAlbane]

I mean. If you can age type 1 immortals that's a bigger point than aging Machines.

Though if what Swag said above is true and Gilgamesh spent a literal eternity without being affected, and BB is more or less the same, It wouldn't be too far-fetched to say she nopes it with what's currently on the table, all things considered.

This is just what I'm pointing out for fairness sake. But both sides seem to have a point open for discussion. I'm just making Alf's life difficult looking from a neutral side here, don't mind me.

 

[ALRF]

Considering Meth is not gonna sit on his ass.

If he see his Time Accel not working, he probably will just close her in his barrier in which, in case she doesn't clear 500,000 layers of night, will either get crushed to death or have her attack herself. And of course, he can BFR her while being trapped inside.

The Jaws will be his shields, since he can make one anywhere and can create hundreds of them in an instant. He can make them tank any of his attacks. He can also make some pop out from her shadow and have them engulf her

Also maybe he can hijack anything that is "related to darkness"? This seems kinda loose as he can screw up Rot Spinne power, Tubal Cai, Wilhelm Ehrenburg blood. But not sure on this one

Btw Fate, i don't mind you making my life difficult since you are my-*shotted, skewered, punched, stabbed, slashed*

 

[DMUA]

I'll side with ALRF here. For now.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Two things on the aging stuff. Other stuff I see nothing wrong with.

1. Masadaverse souls can age and eventually die. That's the whole reason they want the Transmuation of Gold, e.g. immortality. So of course if Meth ages a Masada soul by billions of years, it's going to age to dust and die. Furthermore, the immortality they get by being part of Reinhard's legion is not that their souls stop aging and dying, it's that they get recreated after dying. Barring Reinhard, none of the LDO have unaging souls, einhejar or no.

2. Verse equalisation doesn't work like that. If one verse's souls are legitimately immortal and do not age, that's a hard counter to an ability that works by accelerating time to age the soul.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also, question in the layers of night. It says they are temporally disconnected so they must be destroyed one by one or something, but what does being temporally disconnected actually mean? Been wondering for a while.

 

[ALRF]

1. Except that Einherjar Wilhelm had infinite souls added to him. The whole point is them sucking souls to slow this aging process, having infinite souls practically nulls that. Didn't stop Meth from time acceling

2. Read my point again, i was talking about the whole "soul aging thing" since not all fiction have that. Verse Equalization will just makes them have that. Whether they get affected or not is another case.

 

[ALRF]

Also, Meth can still directly interfer with her soul with his normals attack due to his conceptual nature.

 

[ALRF]

Also, question in the layers of night. It says they are temporally disconnected so they must be destroyed one by one or something, but what does being temporally disconnected actually mean? Been wondering for a while.

Where is this temporally stuff coming from? (I don't even see it in the profile)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Soul sucking doesn't stop the soul aging. It stops the body aging, but Rusalka, who's probably the 2nd or 3rd most knowledgeable in the series about esoteric stuff, very clearly explains that while being an Die Ewigkeit user stops the body aging, it doesn't stop the soul aging. If eating souls halted down the aging process, then there would be no need for the Transmuation of Gold, as they could just keep eating souls to stay alive. They can't. Also, infinite souls is 100% hyperbole, Reinhard doesn't even have that many in his legion. Hell, unless the universe is infinite in size (which it might be, I don't remember if something like that was mentioned), Mercurius doesn't have infinite souls.

Again, that's not how verse equalisation works. Verse equalisation is for equalising energy systems and stuff So chi and chakra are considered comparable and can affect each other. Souls aging or not aging is not covered by that.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I must have misremembered the barriers being "temporally" disconnected. My mistake

 

[ALRF]

>Infinite Souls

>Hyperbole

Nay, it is not.

• Òé░Òâ® Òé║Òü©ÒéñÒâáÒü«þÀÅÞ╗ìÒüïÒéëÒÇü õ┐║Òü»ÚÜøÚÖÉÒü¬ÒüäÕæ¢Òü«Þú£þÁªÒéÆÕÅùÒüæþÂÜÒüæÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇé µòÖõ╝ÜÒüºÒâ╝Õ║ªÒü»þÇòµ¡╗Òü½Þ┐¢ÒüäÞ¥╝Òü¥ ÒéîÒü¬ÒüîÒéëÒÇü ÒüôÒüå ÒüùÒüªÕà¿Õ┐½ÒéÆÚüéÒüÆÒüƒÒü«ÒééÒüØÒü«ÒüèÚÖ░ÒüáÒÇé

Pure blunt statement about him gaining infinite lifesupply from Gladsheimr. You can't handwave it as being hyperbole.

Also what? Mercurius doesn't have infinite souls? Throne God literally have infinite souls and is even bluntly mentioned, because there exist an infinite multiverse

• ÒüôÒüäÒüúÒü«þÑ×Õ¿üÒü»µÄÆÚÖñÒü¿µ«║µê«Òü«Òü┐ÒüùÒüïÒü¬ÒüÅ` ÒüØÒü«þÀÅÒüÅõ¢ôÒü½µè▒Òâ╗ÒüêÞ¥╝ÒéØÒéôÒüáþäíÚÖɵò░Òü«Ú¡éÒéÆÒÇü ÕÀ▒Òü½µÅíÒéÅÒéèõ╗ÿÒüÅõ©ìÕ┐½Òü¬ÕíÁÒü¿ÒüùÒüïµÇØÒüúÒüªÒü¬ÒüäÒü«Òüá

Literally a mention of infinite souls

Also, no that's how verse equalization works. Else Meth's time accel won't even work on say, Goku or Vegeta

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also, Meth can still directly interfer with her soul with his normals attack due to his conceptual nature.

Someone might want to correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I understand, in the Nasuverse, consciousness tends to be synonymous with soul+minds.

BB's consciousness merged with the Moon Cell. If her soul is part of it, it is similarly beyond his reach.

If not, yeah he can soul hax her with his attacks as long as she doesn't counter.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

• reading the whole soul aging thing

Wouldn't that just be simply a way of bypassing durability via soul manip? He's essentially killing a soul, anyway. Just on a... Unconventional way.

 

[ALRF]

@Monarch

Maybe ask Ram about this? (talking about soul + mind thingy)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

snip

Something being a blunt statement doesn't mean it isn't hyperbole. There's plenty of blunt statements that tend to be the biggest hyperboles.

Also, given the context, and that Wilhelm has not become High 3-A as he would if he really absorbed infinite souls, infinite lifesupply is far more likely to be referring to infinite stamina.

I'm remembering the bit in the Reinhard and Merc's fight where Reinhard's got all the souls of his legion, vs Mercurius who has all the souls of the multiverse. Didn't remember any statements of infinite souls, but if there were somewhere else, that's my bad.

However, that doesn't change that Reinhard's legion is finite, and thus not capable of giving "infinite souls". Infinite in supply due to constantly recreating them, but not infinite in amount. Nor does it change that getting an endless supply of souls still won't halt your own soul's aging process.

Is Goku's soul actually unaging? Then yes, Meth's time accel would in fact, not do anything to Goku's soul. His body would still be aged to dust obviously, but having an immortal soul would hard counter Meth trying to age the soul to death. Saying the verse equalisation makes Goku's soul not immortal so it can be aged is a biased interpretation of verse equalisation that swings in Methuselah/Masada's favour.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

> a character is capable of existing for infinite amount of time, showing no negative effects

> soul aging will work via verse equalization

Didn't know that verse equalization makes you lose good feats.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Monarch
Maybe ask Ram about this? (talking about soul + mind thingy)

Yeah I will.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's not, that's ridiculous.

It's the equivalent of me saying a time manipulator will have his time stop work on someone who resists because verse equaliztion

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

*reading the whole soul aging thing
Wouldn't that just be simply a way of bypassing durability via soul manip? He's essentially killing a soul, anyway. Just on a... Unconventional way.

All he's actually doing is accelerating time in an area of effect, and that causes the soul to age because in Dies Irae, souls age and die over time.

He's not directly using age manipulation on the soul. If he was doing that, then there could be an argument that it could affect souls that are traditionally unaging. But he's not.

If your soul doesn't age over time to begin with, accelerating time won't do anything to your soul.

 

[ALRF]

I'm actually wondering if you are reading my sentences properly. Other fictions don't have this whole shit about self destructive factor, which is the whole point of soul aging. But with verse equalization, they will have it. Else any character whose soul is not immortal but doesn't have a certain similar concept to that would bypass Meth soulfuck

You're taking it wrong, With the infinite supply, he could keep up against Methuselah since he is taking souls from Gladsheimr. Soul inside that place is, technically, infinite as every soul comes back from destruction due to its state of creation/destruction.

• ÒüôÒü«ÞíôÒéƵû¢ÒüòÒéîÒüƒÞÇàÒü»ÒÇüÚ¡éÒü«Õø×ÕÅÄÒü«ÒüƒÒéüÒü½µàóµÇºþÜäÒü¬µ«║õ║║ÞíØÕïòÒü½ÚºåÒéëÒéîÒéïÒéêÒüåÒü½Òü¬Òéïõ╗úÒéÅÒéèÒü½ÒÇüµëǵîüÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÞüûÚü║þë®ÒéÆþá┤ÕúèÒüòÒéîÒéïÒüïþçâµûÖÒüîµ×»µ©çÒüùÒü¬ÒüäÚÖÉÒéèÒü»õ©ìµ¡╗Òü¿Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé

This just shows as long as you have a fuel in your HR, you will always be immortal

 

[FateAlbane]

Someone might want to correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I understand, in the Nasuverse, consciousness tends to be synonymous with soul+minds.

Soul for Typemoon is treated like something of the same nature as the astral plane. IIRC it acts like a support/connection/record for the body while the body contains all that stuff such as Magic Circuits, the Mind, Physical Composition, Thoughts, memories, etc.

Closest comparison would be to say if the body, mind etc is like Hardware of a being, the Soul is like the software.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm reading your sentences just fine. We apparently just disagree over when gets equalised. I think you are stretching what verse equalisation actually does.

Ok, I did a google translate. Yeah, deal with it. I want some clarification here.

Those who are subjected to this technique become immortal as long as the possessed relics are (not?) destroyed or the fuel is (not?) exhausted, instead of becoming driven by a chronic homicide urge to recover the soul.

"This technique" -> referring to Die Ewigkeit, or being given the souls from Gladshiemr?

"recover the soul" -> mistranslation of destroy the soul?

 

[FateAlbane]

Also souls by themselves are eternal, as long as the body itself doesn't go dun goofed.

I think there was some plot point in Illya's castle during HF that talks about souls dying or something under certain conditions though it has been ages since I last touched the VN. Take this last part with salt.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Soul for Typemoon is treated like something of the same nature as the astral plane. IIRC it acts like a support/connection/record for the body while the body contains all that stuff such as Magic Circuits, the Mind, Physical Composition, Thoughts, memories, etc.

Closest comparison would be to say if the body, mind etc is like Hardware of a being, the Soul is like the software.

That sounds familiar. Though I don't know if that means BB merged her soul with the Moon Cell as well as the mind

Best to assume not for now. Still, that doesn't guarantee a win for Meth, she's got plenty of ways to defend against his basic attacks even if they will soul **** on hit.

 

[ALRF]

Die Ewigkeit.

Nah it's right. When there is no fuel, HR users get "bloodlusted" (AKA see Ren during the very first parts of the game)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also souls by themselves are eternal, as long as the body itself doesn't go dun goofed.
I think there was some plot point in Illya's castle during HF that talks about souls dying or something under certain conditions though it has been ages since I last touched the VN. Take this last part with salt.

I don't think that's right.

The whole point of the Heaven's Feel ritual is the "Materialisation of the Soul" and make it a properly immortal "perpetual motion machine". If the soul isn't materialised, it will degrade over time, and the body will mimic it. Just look at Zouken Matou, he stuck his soul inside a crest worm to allow make himself immortal, but the soul degraded so much over time that he's all wrinkly and shrunken now.

That being said, that only refers to actual souls in the Nasuverse. Not spiritron particles like BB would(?) have, which have shown to not be subject to that same aging problem.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Monarch

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, the revision was specifically for BB's mind.

Brain of the god, higher perspective and whatnot.

I don't really recall anyone posting stuff about consciousness as a whole or the soul specifically, so that would still be 3-D

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Nah it's right. When there is no fuel, HR users get "bloodlusted" (AKA see Ren during the very first parts of the game)

Oh yeah, remember that bit.

But now I'm not seeing where the quote says Die Ewigkeit also makes their souls immortal? Because it was established that the body's aging can be halted and made immortal, but the souls aging cannot.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I mean, the revision was specifically for BB's mind.
Brain of the god, higher perspective and whatnot.

I don't really recall anyone posting stuff about consciousness as a whole or the soul specifically, so that would still be 3-D

Agreed.

For now.

• begins searching Beast's Lair and Type-Moon for anything saying BB merged her soul (or even better) didn't have one to begin with due to being an A.I. not a spiritron hacker.*

Ah, vs debating

The only place where not having a soul is considered a good thing.

 

[ALRF]

It's not, that's ridiculous.

It's the equivalent of me saying a time manipulator will have his time stop work on someone who resists because verse equaliztion

Don't think you understood my argument. Basically, in Masadaverse, souls ages because of self-destructive factors. Now does other ficions have this? Some don't. But that doesn't mean the soul hax doesn't work, with verse equalization, it will make it so that the souls will have this and allow Meth time hax to work UNLESS the opposite has some legit reasoning to not be affected by it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That legit reasoning is that "my soul doesn't age or have a self destructive factor"

 

[ALRF]

Your reasoning is wrong though.

You're pretty much limiting a character powerset just because of cosmological settings difference, when the verse equalization will have them have this factor unless they have a counter to this.

It's the rule of thumb in our site and your basically ignoring it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No... adding a self destructive factor and aging soul is limiting the character. You're adding weaknesses to a character so that they can be affected by something that they would not be.

Things that make it actually impossible to fight unless equalised (e.g. Spirit Reaper invisible, Stands invisible/intangible, Servants having mystery, etc) -> these get equalised.

Having a soul not aging is not those things.

 

[ALRF]

How they would not be? Unless they have strong reasoning to be able to bypass it, it should work on them via verse equa.

Not gonna keep arguing in circles, so let's see what the others would be thinking

And i won't be able to reply for a while

 

[FateAlbane]

• half snip*

The whole point of the Heaven's Feel ritual is the "Materialisation of the Soul" and make it a properly immortal "perpetual motion machine". If the soul isn't materialised, it will degrade over time, and the body will mimic it. Just look at Zouken Matou, he stuck his soul inside a crest worm to allow make himself immortal, but the soul degraded so much over time that he's all wrinkly and shrunken now.

I was talking about that particular event with the Illya stuff. I'm trying to remember the particular event here but my memory is failing hard. It's the one where Illya says the soul is normally eternal, but once it gets a body, then it gets destined with death

EDIT: Actually found it.

"The only eternal things in this physical world are souls.
But nobody can keep souls by themselves. A soul cannot stay in this world without a body, and it will be destined with 'eventual death' once it obtains a body.
Well, it just means that's the limit of magic by Einzbern and Tohsaka."

As for Zouken, you mean that thing he talks about with True!Assassin in Gap Between the two/Madness? I dunno. As I said, I haven't been very much in touch with F/SN these days, but the exchange between him and assassin did leave me with that impression. As I don't have a proper opinion on this and may be forgetting other important parts of context, I'll just quote the parts I directly remember/have access to:




"I see. You keep your soul alive, while taking the bodies of other creatures as your ownso that is the trick behind your immortality.
That must be why you cannot turn yourself into anything else. What you are keeping alive is your soul, not your body.
So that is why you cannot take any other form but that of Matou Zouken?"

"Of course. I am not taking form as an old man because I want to.
…Look, this is the only form I can create. And it is a poor creation that rots away unless I exchange it periodically. I used to be able to last fifty years before I had to exchange my body, but I have to exchange it every few months now.
…Who can understand the pain I feel as I rot away? Do not misunderstand, Assassin of this generation. Do not call such a thing immortality"

Irritation can be heard in the voice of the old magus.
It has been three days since Assassin's summoning.
He finally sees the true nature of his summoner.

"…I understand now. So what is rotting is not your body, but…"
"…Yes, my soul is rotting.
Time even affects ethereal bodies. Therefore, my physical body will rot. It is natural for my body to rot if my soul, the blueprint of my body, is rotten."

 

[FateAlbane]

That being said, if Spiritron Particles don't age like your everyday soul, then I suppose the only thing you two can do is compare feats.

If the character has an "Eternal-Non aging soul", I think Meth would probs need a feat of aging proper eternal/unaging stuff.

Huh, that's pretty strange. I always assumed DI had eternal souls.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Spiritrons are different though. They don't seem to age at all.

 

[FateAlbane]

I mean. If BB's soul isn't of the kind that ages and Meth can't age souls that are eternal in the time whimey sense... Sorry, Alf, but I actually have to - from my neutral position - agree with the side that's saying that probs won't work.

Unless there's something else about this power of his I'm unaware of.