Nasuverse god tiers revision

[Maxeez]

Okay so, after thinking about it for quite a long time, I think I should try this revision since it seems to make sense. Feel free to correct me as I don't know if any counters have been made before about that.

It has been accepted here that Outer Gods scale to 7D, possibly 9D due to them being "in an even higher dimension than the World and its inhabitants", to quote Crimson.
An example of a page that has been affected by this revision is Abigail William's, since she scales off of Sut-Typhon.
Now, it has been a long time since CCC Kiara was described (and applied on her profile) as a True Daemon due to this/this scan.
But, in the same scan, it is stated that :

The existence of a True Demon is close to that of the evil gods from a certain creation mythology that was popular in the twentieth century.

Meaning that True Daemons are comparable to Outer Gods ; of course talking about their nasuverse counterpart, such as Sut-Typhon, which is supported by this quote :

Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

Which directly parallels the Outer Gods' descriptions and their living location in the Outer Universe. As well as her profile's reasoning being :

Kiara gained full control of the Moon Cell and became an existence close to a True Daemon, higher-dimensional lifeforms who transcend the universe.

That being said, I propose that CCC Kiara and characters who scale to or above her in some way get the same tiers as Abigail. That is : 7D, possibly 9D (in simpler terms, "at least Complex Multiverse level").

Feel free to share this thread by the way.

Agree :
Disagree : Mageman460, RetroWeeeb, Small_Ophion
Neutral :

 

[Mageman460]

Disagree.
Kiara as a True Daemon is the actual weakest existence in that scale according to Tsukihime Remake. On top of that, there is no reason to scale her to Sut Typhon when weaker Outer gods exist such as Cthulu.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Disagree.
Kiara as a True Daemon is the actual weakest existence in that scale according to Tsukihime Remake. On top of that, there is no reason to scale her to Sut Typhon when weaker Outer gods exist such as Cthulu.

Don't know about Tsukihime to comment about what you said, just want to point out that all Outer Gods, in general, are accepted as one dimension above the rest of things, so they all indeed are 7D-9D

All in all, it can be discerned that Outer Gods exist in an even higher dimension than the World and its inhabitants, making them 7-D, possibly 9-D. Currently, this scales to no one in particular, with the exception to Abigail’s noble phantasm, which opens a portal to beyond the Ultimate Gate. This should net her NP a 1-C rating.

Is just that Abigail and MHXX are currently the only characters with profile that scale to that, and from those two Abigail is the only one who scale from be connected to an Outer God (MHXX is for be able to fight them) so I suppose that's why he specifically mentioned Sut Typhon.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Wondering when we’re getting profiles for Yang guifei and the other foreigners

 

[Maxeez]

Disagree.
Kiara as a True Daemon is the actual weakest existence in that scale according to Tsukihime Remake. On top of that, there is no reason to scale her to Sut Typhon when weaker Outer gods exist such as Cthulu.

I see your point, but why would that matter if the outer gods / true daemons are all described as higher dimensional in the same description ? Weakest or not, she would fall under that same description anyways. Besides, I mentioned Sut-Typhon only because he's the only one that has a significant impact on a character's profile as of right now.

 

[Maxeez]

Don't know about Tsukihime to comment about what you said, just want to point out that all Outer Gods, in general, are accepted as one dimension above the rest of things, so they all indeed are 7D-9D

Is just that Abigail and MHXX are currently the only characters with profile that scale to that, and from those two Abigail is the only one who scale from be connected to an Outer God (MHXX is for be able to fight them) so I suppose that's why he specifically mentioned Sut Typhon.

Yeah, that's right.

 

[Maxeez]

Wondering when we’re getting profiles for Yang guifei and the other foreigners

I don't know if some sandboxes have already been made but it just needs a crt to be applied I think ?

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Gotta disagree as well.

Outer Gods are currently accepted as 7-D, possibly 9-D due to existing beyond the reach/scope of Goetia's Demon Pillars (look at Abigail's page), which have been shown accessing the Moon Cell in FGO. This would imply that Outer Gods are above the Moon Cell, which is the source of Kiara's power.
To quote the original CRT

Outer Gods, as established in Salem, are beings of a higher level of existence in relation to the Demon God Pillars of Goetia, existing beyond that of their reach, beyond that which can be found in parallel dimensions. This is important, as the reach of the Demon God Pillars of Goetia is immense, enough for them to reach into the Extra timeline and into the Moon Cell.

There's also the fact that the wiki accepts Goetia as > CCC Kiara, and the Outer Gods appear to be beyond Goetia's reach.

Also, the quote from Kiara's profile that you're using says:

Kiara gained full control of the Moon Cell and became an existence close to a True Daemon, higher-dimensional lifeforms who transcend the universe...

"Close", as in, not there yet.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I don't know if some sandboxes have already been made but it just needs a crt to be applied I think ?

I don’t remember any sandboxes

 

[Maxeez]

Outer Gods are currently accepted as 7-D, possibly 9-D due to existing beyond the reach/scope of Goetia's Demon Pillars (look at Abigail's page), which have been shown accessing the Moon Cell in FGO. This would imply that Outer Gods are above the Moon Cell, which is the source of Kiara's power.

Well, the Outer Gods were given such tiers particularly because they transcend the universe and its structures, not just because of demon god pillars.
And, while the MoonCell is one of the sources of her power, she absorbed many other things such as BB, Meltryllis and Lip, thus getting such an existence.
In this case, why would the materials point out that she gained an existence comparable to beings that have never been mentionned in CCC before, especially when said beings are known to be also comparable to Outer Gods, who are in turn higher dimensional compared to the rest of the universe (including the MoonCell since it obtained 7D-9D scaling) ?

There's also the fact that the wiki accepts Goetia as > CCC Kiara, and the Outer Gods appear to be beyond Goetia's reach.

Beyond the demon god pillars', yes, but doesn't Goetia tell us that he became a higher dimensional being because of his Beast class nature ? It would make sense imo since separate demon god pillars don't specifically seem to be higher dimensional by themselves thus explaining why outer gods are out of their reach.

"Close", as in, not there yet.

Can't say much about this, "close to" is a synonym of "near" which can indicate that Kiara is comparable to True Daemons while not being literally one herself.
As the scan itself says :

In the True End Route of CCC, a certain reincarnated person who has essentially attained True Demon level

This seems to point out that she did get on their level, just in her own way.

Still counted both of your votes though.

 

[Small_Ophion]

Put me up for disagree as well for reasons mentioned by RetroWeeb, tho I disagree with Mageman's reason.

 

[Maxeez]

Put me up for disagree as well for reasons mentioned by RetroWeeb, tho I disagree with Mageman's reason.

Damn . What about what I said ?

 

[Small_Ophion]

Damn . What about what I said ?

Read what you said but I still agree with the guy.

 

[Small_Ophion]

I'd also like to add that from my understanding, the scan from Extra came before Outer Gods were introduced in Fate. So I don't believe they were talking about the Outer Gods we see later on, but simply making a comparison in the sense of higher dimensional cosmic horrors.

 

[Theoretical]

It has been accepted here that Outer Gods scale to 7D, possibly 9D due to them being "in an even higher dimension than the World and its inhabitants", to quote Crimson.
An example of a page that has been affected by this revision is Abigail William's, since she scales off of Sut-Typhon.
Now, it has been a long time since CCC Kiara was described (and applied on her profile) as a True Daemon due to this/this scan.
But, in the same scan, it is stated that

I disagree with ccc Kiara scaling to outer gods there's little to no evidence that attest for that other than the materials which themselves can be interpreted in many ways her showings in ccc don't make it any easier for her to scale

Meaning that True Daemons are comparable to Outer Gods ; of course talking about their nasuverse counterpart, such as Sut-Typhon, which is supported by this quote

I mean I've always held an interpretation that the qoute was just explaining how just like the outer gods are higher dimensional true daemons are indistinguishable from outer gods in the sense that they're higher dimensional too not that they're on the same scale I mean literally after the statement of them being indistinguishable they only ever make the comparison with both of them being higher dimensional and nothing more

That being said, I propose that CCC Kiara and characters who scale to or above her in some way get the same tiers as Abigail. That is : 7D, possibly 9D (in simpler terms, "at least Complex Multiverse level").

The chain scale wouldn't make sense either way outer gods are accepted as 1 dimension above goetia and goetia is accepted as being above Kiara meaning they should be both 1 dimension below outer gods either way

Well, the Outer Gods were given such tiers particularly because they transcend the universe and its structures, not just because of demon god pillars

Being above the demon God pillars was part of the reason as well so it really doesn't matter

Wondering when we’re getting profiles for Yang guifei and the other foreigners

Same

 

[Maxeez]

I'd also like to add that from my understanding, the scan from Extra came before Outer Gods were introduced in Fate. So I don't believe they were talking about the Outer Gods we see later on, but simply making a comparison in the sense of higher dimensional cosmic horrors.

Well that doesn't make much more sense than simply assuming the statement talked about the same outer gods that were introduced later in FGO. Because the purpose is that : introducing something that hasn't been really elaborated on before. Additionally, their descriptions are pretty much similar so I don't see why you are making a difference between them.

 

[Maxeez]

I disagree with ccc Kiara scaling to outer gods there's little to no evidence that attest for that other than the materials which themselves can be interpreted in many ways her showings in ccc don't make it any easier for her to scale.

I don't see why you're calling them vague in some way when the statement is straightforward enough to scale her, even if she was the weakest out of the true daemons. The materials are supposed to clear up misunderstandings and add some more informations for global comprehension, so could you elaborate about that ?

I mean I've always held an interpretation that the qoute was just explaining how just like the outer gods are higher dimensional true daemons are indistinguishable from outer gods in the sense that they're higher dimensional too not that they're on the same scale I mean literally after the statement of them being indistinguishable they only ever make the comparison with both of them being higher dimensional and nothing more

It says that their existence is indistinguishable from higher dimensional lifeforms, not outer gods. This description is used to define them independently from the outer gods, then the daemons are later directly compared to the outer gods in the next paragraph. So it makes sense they are similar life forms in terms of both existence and role in the verse (both can possess people btw).

The chain scale wouldn't make sense either way outer gods are accepted as 1 dimension above goetia and goetia is accepted as being above Kiara meaning they should be both 1 dimension below outer gods either way.

That seems to be the only real problem here, but why wouldn't it ? Goetia has been stated a higher dimensional being right after being introduced as a beast, not specifically because he's a demon god. In this case, demon god pillars wouldn't hold back Goetia himself from scaling off of outer gods. Besides, it would be weird that only MHXX can slay outer gods despite not being one of the strongest top tiers.

Being above the demon God pillars was part of the reason as well so it really doesn't matter.

Yeah, because demon god pillars can reach to parallel universes but not outer gods because they are higher dimensional, thus supporting the outer gods' scaling.

 

[Maxeez]

I forgot to add that Kiara has already been accepted as a :

Higher-Dimensional Existence (Is on a similar level to True Demons, being above Demons who are higher dimensional existences from beyond the universe.)

Beyond the universe huh ? That's the same reasoning as the Outer Gods'. While it is true that Demon Gods can reach to parallel universes, I'd like to point out that Rayshift (which essentially also can reach to alternate timelines, as per this quote : "Through pseudo-spiritron transference, individuals with aptitude can be projected into a different time axis.") is a higher dimensional way of travelling (mentioned by Fujimaru), which explains that the higher dimensions of the Demon God Pillars is only based on reaching other timelines, and not regular higher dimensional spaces like we know them.
Now, Goetia, as Beast I, classifies for the same higher dimensional existence as the other beasts such as Kiara (herself being above beings like BB and her higher dimensional powers and perspective), and not for the Demon God Pillars' alone (which is a pretty standard higher dimensional thing we saw throughout the nasuverse).

So then, why wouldn't we continue to follow Kiara's already accepted reasonings to scale her to the outer gods, as well as people scaling off of her ?

 

[Small_Ophion]

Well that doesn't make much more sense than simply assuming the statement talked about the same outer gods that were introduced later in FGO. Because the purpose is that : introducing something that hasn't been really elaborated on before. Additionally, their descriptions are pretty much similar so I don't see why you are making a difference between them.

That's a fair point, but this uncertainty is what making me completely disagree with a full on change, a possibly/likely would seem much better in this case if it does get accepted.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I disagree fra

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I tend to think nasuverse revisions that don’t involve tier 1 are easier to do.

 

[Maxeez]

That's a fair point, but this uncertainty is what making me completely disagree with a full on change, a possibly/likely would seem much better in this case if it does get accepted.

I see. I’m gonna wait for further responses/input anyways.

 

[Maxeez]

I disagree fra

Why ? Could you please reply to the counterarguments I made ?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Why ? Could you please reply to the counterarguments I made ?

I disagree based on what everyone else says, if most people disagree then I’ll disagree too.

 

[Maxeez]

I disagree based on what everyone else says, if most people disagree then I’ll disagree too.

Yeah I got this part, but since I responded to their arguments, I want to know what you think about my counter arguments.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah I got this part, but since I responded to their arguments, I want to know what you think about my counter arguments.

Not really good at tier 1 stuff so not sure

 

[Maxeez]

Not really good at tier 1 stuff so not sure

Alright fair, then just at least wait for their response please.


I also wanted to add that a part of Kiara's reasoning about her tier is that she :

became an existence close to a True Daemon, higher-dimensional lifeforms who transcend the universe

and :

(Is on a similar level to True Demons, being above Demons who are higher dimensional existences from beyond the universe.)

Since she already fully scales to true daemons, who in turn scale to Outer Gods, she should already be "at least 1-C", because the outer gods transcend the universe which is 6 to 8D ; thus explaining their 7 to 9D rating. If her reasoning was referring to the MoonCell being beyond the universe, it would in turn make no sense that Outer Gods scale beyond a structure that is transcending the universe when their own reasoning is already based on transcending the universe.
What I'm proposing is basically already partly included in Kiara's profile, nothing more than that.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It may not be my place to say this, but...a Foreigner?
My understanding is that consorting with Servants of that sort is dangerous.
And I sense something especially sinister from that Abigail girl. A remote universe beyond even the Buddha's reach... I cannot help but to be intrigued...
Oh, no, I am absolutely not saying that because I am envious of her swimsuit that absolutely screams "cute!"

-Kiara

Kiara is relative to Buddha very explicitly, being a bodhisattva and all, even when she has reached her peak and is an existence similar to a true daemon

Additionally, what was said earlier about her being weaker than everything else on that Daemon level is true

In Tsuki R when talking about her, they say that once she ascended, she saw what was beyond us, and they were so much stronger she elected to stay in our world, since it's better to be a god down here than a speck of dust up there basically, of note, she also calls Fate Kiara a lesser her, so if you take that as a power thing, a stronger Kiara was the weakest being on that scale

I have saved sentient beings and ascended to the throne of the demon heaven, but there I am a novice, a mere speck of dust.
I spent my whole life trying to gain insight, but what those eyes saw was not only the truth of the world, but also a lesser me.
It is as if I had strived to know my own miserable self.
That is why I am staying here.
No matter how small the world may be, I am worth somewhat more here than I am there...

 

[Maxeez]

-Kiara

Kiara is relative to Buddha very explicitly, being a bodhisattva and all, even when she has reached her peak and is an existence similar to a true daemon

Additionally, what was said earlier about her being weaker than everything else on that Daemon level is true

In Tsuki R when talking about her, they say that once she ascended, she saw what was beyond us, and they were so much stronger she elected to stay in our world, since it's better to be a god down here than a speck of dust up there basically, of note, she also calls Fate Kiara a lesser her, so if you take that as a power thing, a stronger Kiara was the weakiest being on that scale

Welp, I haven't read TsukiRe yet, I think this could only apply to the Kiara when she ascended then. As she still ascended to that "realm" when becoming a True Daemon and then decided to go back to her previous state when she was powerful enough to make it to the god tiers. Her being the weakest in that realm doesn't necessarily prevent her from scaling above the 6-8D universe anyways.

In that case, would you be fine with two separate keys ? One for her universe/MoonCell scaling and one for her true daemon scaling.
Of course, this would just scale to her on the second key (and no one else), since she apparently decided to go back afterwards.

 

[Maxeez]

I can't really search in deeper details but using what the wiki says :

He recounts of a "sister who is now part of the Burial Agency", who became a higher dimensional demon through the sabbath. But all it did was make her more aware of her own limits, and so she returned to humanity. For this reason he sought not power, but simply to continue being, until the world comes to a close.

From Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- - Rainbow in the Night route - True End - Day 15: "The Blue of a Bright Day".

I think a new key would be fine for her Maradeva self. What do y'all think ?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Welp, I didn't read TsukiRe yet, I think this could only apply to the Kiara when she ascended then. As she still ascended to that "realm" when becoming a True Daemon and then decided to go back to her previous state when she was powerful enough to make it to the god tiers. Her being the weakest in that realm doesn't necessarily prevent her from scaling above the 6-8D universe anyways.

In that case, would you be fine with two separate keys ? One for her universe/MoonCell scaling and one for her true daemon scaling.
Of course, this would just scale to her on the second key (and no one else), since she apparently decided to go back afterwards.

No because as the first thing I posted says, Outer Gods are beyond Buddha's reach, that's the level she's at however, as detailed by her mats and stuff saying that she'd lose to him without Nega Saver, and her NP fron CCC making it clear that at that level, she's the same type of being as Saver.

So the Kiara who has reached the level of true daemons is also on the level of Buddha (she reached this level in CCC). Kiara then says that the Outer Gods are from outside of Buddha's control and reach. The Tsukihime thing was just support for this fact, she's self admittedly, no more than a speck of dust to them, which is consistent with FGO saying that they are beyond Buddha's reach, which is her level, these combined implies she may just not be 7/9d like an Outer God is.

But in any case, a key for Tsuki Kiara doesn't work because we don't know what powers she has, she likely wouldn't share powers with her other two forms

 

[Maxeez]

No because as the first thing I posted says, Outer Gods are beyond Buddha's reach, that's the level she's at however, as detailed by her mats and stuff saying that she'd lose to him without Nega Saver, and her NP fron CCC making it clear that at that level, she's the same type of being as Saver.

So the Kiara who has reached the level of true daemons is also on the level of Buddha (she reached this level in CCC). Kiara then says that the Outer Gods are from outside of Buddha's control and reach. The Tsukihime thing was just support for this fact, she's self admittedly, no more than a speck of dust to them, which is consistent with FGO saying that they are beyond Buddha's reach, which is her level, these combined implies she may just not be 7/9d like an Outer God is.

I mean, Outer Gods being outside of his reach is because he also would be one of the weakest beings among them, not something like being infinitely below them. Buddha can control what is below him, that being the rest of the universe but not beings that are much, much stronger than him but still outside and transcending the universe.
Do you get what I mean ? Basically, he cannot control nor beat Outer Gods since they are on a whole other level of sheer strength but still within the same realm he attained as a Bodhisvatta. In Kiara's case, she attained both the existence of a True Daemon and Buddha, thus benefitting from the same reasoning.

Essentially, being much weaker than them doesn't mean they are below their state of existence, so I don't see why they can't get the same tier (since it comes from the outer universe being above the universe in terms of dimensionality).

But in any case, a key for Tsuki Kiara doesn't work because we don't know what powers she has, she likely wouldn't share powers with her other two forms

I don't think that's much of a problem ? I mean, why wouldn't she ? She is pretty much described to be similar to her CCC version in the regard of attaining true daemon level. Besides, I didn't propose a "Tsuki Kiara" key, just a key for her maradeva self.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I mean, Outer Gods being outside of his reach is because he also would be one of the weakest beings among them, not something like being infinitely below them. Buddha can control what is below him, that being the rest of the universe but not beings that are much, much stronger than him but still outside and transcending the universe.
Do you get what I mean ? Basically, he cannot control nor beat Outer Gods since they are on a whole other level of sheer strength but still within the same realm he attained as a Bodhisvatta. In Kiara's case, she attained both the existence of a True Daemon and Buddha, thus benefitting from the same reasoning.

No this doesn't make sense, outside of his reach really sorta just like, describes them as outside of his scope and beyond him, not just "he's on the same level but weaker". The wording used in JP is that they are beyond the reach or hands of the Buddha. Buddha notably has the entire multiverse in his reach according to mats (the trillochism and what not) so they're entirely beyond the world where Buddha is, which is the level Kiara is on. The way Kiara talks about it also implies she doesn't know much about it, implying even further she's just not in that same scale with her "I can not help but be intrigued" being "I have no end of interest in it" in the Japanese

Essentially, being much weaker than them doesn't mean they are below their state of existence, so I don't see why they can't get the same tier (since it comes from the outer universe being above the universe in terms of dimensionality).


I don't think that's much of a problem ? I mean, why wouldn't she ? She is pretty much described to be similar to her CCC version in the regard of attaining true daemon level. Besides, I didn't propose a "Tsuki Kiara" key, just a key for her maradeva self.

Because CCC Kiara got her powers through very specific means, FGO Kiara got them through fussing with Zepar and then although CCC Kiara

Tsuki Kiara has none of that. Further, the maradeva is Tsuki Kiara, that's where her being that comes from. If you just meant true demon in general, then CCC and FGO are already that

 

[Maxeez]

No this doesn't make sense, outside of his reach really sorta just like, describes them as outside of his scope and beyond him, not just "he's on the same level but weaker". The wording used in JP is that they are beyond the reach or hands of the Buddha. Buddha notably has the entire multiverse in his reach according to mats (the trillochism and what not) so they're entirely beyond the world where Buddha is, which is the level Kiara is on. The way Kiara talks about it also implies she doesn't know much about it, implying even further she's just not in that same scale with her "I can not help but be intrigued" being "I have no end of interest in it" in the Japanese

Well, being outside of your reach doesn't imply being "infinitely above" someone else, just that you aren't on the same level of strength or anything else. Buddha has the entire multiverse in his reach, that's right, but that's because he transcends it by being above the whole notion of space-time and stuff.
The fact that Kiara could sense and observe such beings and then decided to go back to the universe would indicate that she did reside in such a realm, acknowledged the outer gods, and then dipped outside of it.

Tsuki Kiara has none of that. Further, the maradeva is Tsuki Kiara, that's where her being that comes from. If you just meant true demon in general, then CCC and FGO are already that

Yeah.

But you know what, if you disagree with me that's fine, I did know there would be opposition but still tried, so I had enough fun debating this topic.
Though, I still think something can come out of this thread, even if it's not what I expected in the first place.

 

[Theoretical]

I don't see why you're calling them vague in some way when the statement is straightforward enough to scale her, even if she was the weakest out of the true daemons. The materials are supposed to clear up misunderstandings and add some more informations for global comprehension, so could you elaborate about that ?

I gave you an alternative interpretation for the the statement suggesting that they're indistinguishable and materials don't always clear up misunderstandings but I didn't say they were wrong I just said I interpret it differently you just misconstrued what I said

It says that their existence is indistinguishable from higher dimensional lifeforms, not outer gods. This description is used to define them independently from the outer gods, then the daemons are later directly compared to the outer gods in the next paragraph. So it makes sense they are similar life forms in terms of both existence and role in the verse (both can possess people btw).

Okay so if you interpret like that it still doesn't necessitate that fact that they'd scale they're still just close to the existence of outer gods in a sense that they're higher dimensional so even with your interpretation my still holds and supports it

Also I don't think the statement saying they're close to them would suffice to say they scale to them at all

That seems to be the only real problem here, but why wouldn't it ? Goetia has been stated a higher dimensional being right after being introduced as a beast, not specifically because he's a demon god. In this case, demon god pillars wouldn't hold back Goetia himself from scaling off of outer gods

Like I said I'm pretty sure you used accepted stuff considering that it's already accepted that goetia is below them as basis to support them being 7D relative to goetia who's 6D it doesn't make sense for you to go back and jus go against what's accepted even tho you used what's accepted as part of the basis for what you're saying

Besides, it would be weird that only MHXX can slay outer gods despite not being one of the strongest top tiers.

Did she slay outer gods or did she slay foreigners possessed by outer gods? which are two separate things despite the former bordering the powers of the outer gods it's only a figment of the outer gods true power

Yeah, because demon god pillars can reach to parallel universes but not outer gods because they are higher dimensional, thus supporting the outer gods' scaling.

And goetia was a part of it too what was accepted of them being 7D was supported by the demon God pillars to which was interpreted as an implication that they're above goetia too? Who's 6D hence supporting them being 7D you know this

Beyond the universe huh ? That's the same reasoning as the Outer Gods'.

Are you sure it's the same reasoning universe can mean just the texture in the planet and the actual universe outer gods is specifically in reference to the universe and has waaay more consistency than anything that Kiara has been shown to do

 

[Maxeez]

Okay so if you interpret like that it still doesn't necessitate that fact that they'd scale they're still just close to the existence of outer gods in a sense that they're higher dimensional so even with your interpretation my still holds and supports it.

Them being described as similar means they are close in existence. It'd make no sense to say they're comparable just in the regard of higher dimensional existence when Kiara was able to access their realm as a true daemon, but whatever.

Also I don't think the statement saying they're close to them would suffice to say they scale to them at all.

I can't say much more than what has been already said, I think it does since there is a significant number of different supporting evidence.

Like I said I'm pretty sure you used accepted stuff considering that it's already accepted that goetia is below them as basis to support them being 7D relative to goetia who's 6D it doesn't make sense for you to go back and jus go against what's accepted even tho you used what's accepted as part of the basis for what you're saying.

And I disagreed with this particular reason, the rest is fine (scaling above all the possible dimensions of the universe including Avalon and the MoonCell). Outer gods are above demon god pillars, not necessarily Beast I since he's above Kiara who could attain such an existence. But it doesn't matter much now because of TsukiRe.

Did she slay outer gods or did she slay foreigners possessed by outer gods? which are two separate things despite the former bordering the powers of the outer gods it's only a figment of the outer gods true power.

Complex Multiverse level with Justice of The Farthest Ends (Easily overpowered C.C.C BB and almost stripped Nyarlathotep's powers off her. It is a power designed to defeat Outer Gods [...]

See it for yourself.

And goetia was a part of it too what was accepted of them being 7D was supported by the demon God pillars to which was interpreted as an implication that they're above goetia too? Who's 6D hence supporting them being 7D you know this.

And I simply believe and explained before that I disagreed with that part.

Are you sure it's the same reasoning universe can mean just the texture in the planet and the actual universe outer gods is specifically in reference to the universe and has waaay more consistency than anything that Kiara has been shown to do.

Yeah, I'm sure, since it would make absolutely no sense that "beyond the universe" was referring to the MoonCell or simply being above Earth's texture, as the universe was what was being argued as 6-8D in the lostbelt revision thread (meaning it contains both Avalon and the MoonCell which are already above the Earth's texture). Besides, Kiara was "above the universe" because of her true daemon existence which are comparable to outer gods in their outer universe.

But anyways, just forget this thread lol.

 

[1Nairove]

it's funny for someone crazy like me to see this thread now lol anyway will the thread continue?

 

[Theoretical]

Them being described as similar means they are close in existence. It'd make no sense to say they're comparable just in the regard of higher dimensional existence when Kiara was able to access their realm as a true daemon, but whatever.

When did do that again?

I can't say much more than what has been already said, I think it does since there is a significant number of different supporting evidence

And significant number of different supporting evidences are just that statement seems like a significant number indeed

Outer gods are above demon god pillars, not necessarily Beast I since he's above Kiara who could attain such an existence.

It's already accepted tho that's the support evidence for them being 7D didn't we just speak about this

See it for yourself.

That doesn't respond to my question tho I asked if she has slayed any outer God in its true form considering you're using the foreigner thing only as an example of that I guess not

And I simply believe and explained before that I disagreed with that part

But you used outer God scaling that's the outer God scaling unless you make a thread to put goetia at 7D, outer gods have better showings and statements than both goetia and Kiara too

Besides, Kiara was "above the universe" because of her true daemon existence which are comparable to outer gods in their outer universe

She never ascended to existing in the outer universe it really doesn't make sense it say they're comparable and she above the universe on a similar scale to outer gods

But anyways, just forget this thread lol.

Ight

 

[Theoretical]

it's funny for someone crazy like me to see this thread now lol anyway will the thread continue?

I don't think so

 

[Maxeez]

When did do that again?

CCC end of true route.

And significant number of different supporting evidences are just that statement seems like a significant number indeed

There are more than a single one but okay.

It's already accepted tho that's the support evidence for them being 7D didn't we just speak about this

And I disagreed with this particular reason, the rest is fine (scaling above all the possible dimensions of the universe including Avalon and the MoonCell). Outer gods are above demon god pillars, not necessarily Beast I since he's above Kiara who could attain such an existence. But it doesn't matter much now because of TsukiRe.

Can't say more than that lol, I elaborated about it above my previous post :

While it is true that Demon Gods can reach to parallel universes, I'd like to point out that Rayshift (which essentially also can reach to alternate timelines, as per this quote : "Through pseudo-spiritron transference, individuals with aptitude can be projected into a different time axis.") is a higher dimensional way of travelling (mentioned by Fujimaru), which explains that the higher dimensions of the Demon God Pillars is only based on reaching other timelines, and not regular higher dimensional spaces like we know them.
Now, Goetia, as Beast I, classifies for the same higher dimensional existence as the other beasts such as Kiara (herself being above beings like BB and her higher dimensional powers and perspective), and not for the Demon God Pillars' alone (which is a pretty standard higher dimensional thing we saw throughout the nasuverse).

That doesn't respond to my question tho I asked if she has slayed any outer God in its true form considering you're using the foreigner thing only as an example of that I guess not

Of course she did, it's specified she can directly slay Outer Gods.

But you used outer God scaling that's the outer God scaling unless you make a thread to put goetia at 7D, outer gods have better showings and statements than both goetia and Kiara too

Better showings ? Yes. Infinitely better showings ? Not necessarily, and the quotes were pretty clear about that. But anyways we should forget this Goetia part because of TsukiRe, that's why I later proposed another key for Kiara.

She never ascended to existing in the outer universe it really doesn't make sense it say they're comparable and she above the universe on a similar scale to outer gods

Argue with the quote itself then :

I have saved sentient beings and ascended to the throne of the demon heaven, but there I am a novice, a mere speck of dust.
I spent my whole life trying to gain insight, but what those eyes saw was not only the truth of the world, but also a lesser me.
It is as if I had strived to know my own miserable self.
That is why I am staying here.
No matter how small the world may be, I am worth somewhat more here than I am there...

Yes, she is much weaker, but in their realm nonetheless. She then dipped out of it because she felt wortless in this universe.