I’m Evil Like Sasuke (NNT Edition)

[ByAsura]

On this note, Graces are not Arks and don't function identically.

Ark from someone way stronger than Tarmiel and Sariel does **** all to Estarossa due to the fact that he's a Goddess.

Graces obliterate him despite this resistance, suggesting the elements they produce aren't infused with light magic, just the admonition created by SD.

The fact that Tarmiel even questions this suggests it wouldn't have been possible for Estarossa previously.

It's not proof, but I'd also say that the OP doesn't actually give proof either.

 

[Tatsumi504]

You just conceded that your entire point was fallacious.... If it's an appeal to reality then we can't assume Sunshine would produce radiation just because high levels of heat irl produces radiation, and i already addressed the "sun" stuff in my OP. Just because Sunshine has a "sun" motif going on with it doesn't mean it produces radiation like our sun does.

Meh, guess you can nuke it yhen, agree.

It's a fine assumption to make. It also isn't "blatantly" between EE and Absorption, it absolutely could've been decon, we just don't know for sure.

I know? which is why i offered multiple interpretations to the feat which would still fit in line with the entire context of the sentence.

If the evidence isn't enough to justify EE and it's unclear whether "be consumed" was literal or figurative then just put me down for absorption.

If Melascula doesn't fully negate or slow down the regeneration of someone then it can't be considered as regeneration negation.

But it's actually slowed down no? He couldn't fully regenerate until the acid was removed by Elizabeth which is why a "limited" rating should be enough...hold on, could you explain what you mean by "perpetual state of regeneration"? Assuming it's a versus match, do you mean something like, destroying them over and over again so that they can't completely regenerate and it becomes a win by incap?

 

[speedster352]

Continuing on from my previous thread.

Theme song of thread.

Like I said in my previous thread, I've gone through all the individual profiles of NNT to see if I disagree with anything, and to no one’s surprise I did.

---

All Sins:​

Density Manipulation -

Even ignoring the fact Death Zero isn’t actually Density Manipulation but rather Gravity Manipulation, and since nothing proves they resisted the pressure through some sort of esoteric means, it wouldn’t be accepted as a resistance but rather lifting strength.

Nothing about this feat shows anything that would grant a resistance, it just shows the sins physically resisting the pressure generated by the attack through pure lifting strength alone. Which wouldn’t be a resistance but rather LS.

So yeah this definitely needs to be removed.

Meliodas:​

Regeneration Negation -

Izraf’s regeneration got removed and Melascula’s regeneration got downgraded to Mid, so this resistance should be downgraded from High-Mid to Mid.

Resistance Negation -

Nothing in the scan provided shows Resistance Negation inherently, it just shows Zeldris and Meliodas “killing” the Supreme Deity with Tyrant Killing. Something which doesn’t require Resistance Negation to make sense, it could just be Tyrant Killing having a higher level of potency compared to other Darkness-based attacks which Supreme Deity resisted but wasn't able to resist this one. And since we’re never given any in-depth context about the functionality of the ability I believe my claim would require less assumptions to assert compared to the current rating we have on the profiles.

It should be removed, or at best turned into a “possibly” rating given the lack of concrete evidence for the ability and the higher levels of assumptions you need to assume are true compared to my claim.

Escanor:​

Regeneration Negation -

High-Mid needs to be removed since Izraf’s regeneration got removed.

Radiation Manipulation -

The reasoning behind why we give Escanor Radiation Manipulation is a complete appeal to reality, just because in reality when heat reaches a certain level it gives off forms of radiation doesn’t mean we assume Escanor’s heat would also give off radiation without statements or implications. I tried using this exact same logic in one of my previous threads and was told directly by multiple mods that if we aren’t given a statement or implication about the heat generating radiation we can’t assume it does, regardless of the level of heat.

Also Sunshine having a “sun” motif isn’t enough evidence either to prove it would have radiation like our sun/stars in general produce, that’s another appeal to reality and isn’t something that’s accepted as shown in my previous thread.

Darkness Manipulation and Existence Erasure -

Izraf is getting his Existence Erasure removed, so this resistance would go with it. Also resisting physical attacks which are constructed of darkness doesn’t grant you resistances to Darkness Manipulation, similar how resisting the physical force generated by wood or plants doesn’t give you resistance to Plant Manipulation. That also needs to be removed as well.

Air Manipulation -

Same reason why you don’t gain resistance to Plant Manipulation just because you resist the kinetic force generated by wood or plants, Escanor overpowering Ominous Nebula isn’t a feat of him resisting Air Manipulation, it’s a physical strength feat of him overpowering the ability with pure physicality alone.

So that absolutely needs to be removed.

Zeldris:​

Resistance Negation -

Same reasoning as explained in the “Meliodas” section of this post.

Estarossa/Mael:​

Elemental Intangibility Negation -

This should be turned into limited since Darkness, just like the Arks of Goddesses. is the direct counter to the holy nature of angels, meaning it’s a safer claim to assume that this is only applicable against holy beings, and not something that would work against anyone with elemental intangibility.

Also given the fact Tarmiel is consistently shown to not be able to phase through darkness attacks provides even more credence to my interpretation.

Radiation Manipulation -

Read the “Escanor” section of the OP for more context.

Regeneration Negation -

Read the “Escanor” section of the OP for more context.

Death Manipulation and Pain Manipulation -

Both should be turned into limited since both induce different effects depending on if the affected target is a demon or not, with Death Manipulation procing if the target is a demon and Pain Manipulation procing if the target isn’t a demon.

Melascula:​

Regeneration Negation -

This is just blatantly not Regeneration Negation, the scan we currently use to support this rating is not only most likely a lower quality translation but also leaves out needed context. Melascula specifically says her stomach acid (which is the thing she affected Ban with, specifically its vapors) doesn’t actually negate Ban’s regeneration but rather puts him in a perpetual state of regeneration.

Given this very direct contradiction it should be removed entirely from her page.

Izraf:​

Existence Erasure -

Nothing within the scans provided actually proves Existence Erasure at all, and honestly seems to actively contradict that interpretation as well.

“Be utterly consumed by the darkness without a trace.” isn’t a statement about Existence Erasure inherently, just because the statement ends with “without a trace” doesn’t mean we’d assume it’s Existence Erasure without further context since other abilities would also do this exact same thing visually like Absorption or Deconstruction and would require a smaller amount of assumptions to claim. And since we’re shown how this supposed “Existence Erasure” actually interacts with objects I'm more inclined to believe this is more so Absorption or Deconstruction.

Existence Erasure should be removed and replaced with either Absorption or Deconstruction, i’m personally leaning towards Absorption because of the whole “be utterly consumed” portion of the sentence but i’ll ultimately leave this one up for thread participators to choose on.

---

Agree - Zezu1995, Lugh_Tuathe_Dé, Arc7Kuroi (agrees with possibly rating), Planck69 (agrees with possibly rating), LIFE_OF_KING, DemonGodMitchAubin, LordGinSama, Damage3245, Makai64100 (agrees with some), Tatsumi504 (agrees with some), ByAsura (agrees with some), InfiniteDay, Greatsage13th

Disagree - Zezu1995 (Elemental Intangibility Negation), Makai64100 (disagrees with some), Tatsumi504 (disagrees with some), ByAsura (disagrees with some)

Neutral - ByAsura (neutral with most), Tatsumi504 (Elemental Intangibility Negation)

I disagree with some

• Content Revision

Mael Grace justification​

• Thread starterAether_
• Start dateJul 29, 2022
• TagsEscanorMael (Nanatsu No Taizai) Nanatsu No Taizai

UNWATCH
[IMG alt="Aether_"]https://vsbattles.com/data/avatars/m/13/13169.jpg?1665966833[/IMG]

Aether_​

• Jul 29, 2022
• Edit bookmark
• #1

We know all grace literally refer to their elements.
Likes

Tarmiel Ocean grace = water ocean
Sariel Tornado grace = Wind such as large tornado and tempest
Ludociel Flash grace = flash of light
And "Sunshine" refer to creation of Create and manipulate of miniature sun size

But why?

First, it doesn't to be state as really with sunshine word, and most of side panel explanation in raw manga, state sunshine grace is literally only "sun"/"taiyo"/tai yang"(chinese translate of sun)
For one of example
Roughly translate

There is no statement about sunshine directly except escanor himself state his power called sunshine,

Even ludociel one of grace user always state this power is "sun/taiyo"

For further

And more evidence,
When escanor created small sun from his back
There is statement in the raw side panel confirmly if sun that they created from their body is a star "hoshi 星" in the sentence.

That mean the sun contains star material just like real sun.

And we already know that sunshine grace can give intense light and radiation as the same properties to real sun, and also got supporting feats from melascula and bellion that said, standing infront "sun" grace just like standing infront sun itself.


It's even show it in manga series or even movie that sun they created are similar to real sun.
(This one from movie even show that sun has sunstorm around it)


TLDR

"The Sun" that created by escanor or mael to some aspect like heat and etc, should be equal to real sun due it's have same nature, characteristic, and material properties to be a miniature sun star.
This is the last I am posting here

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[Makai641001]

Nothing you just stated actually provides evidence on why we should assume Resistance Negation over higher potency, i never contested the notion of her physiology or resistance to Darkness-based attacks so i have no idea why you brought that up. Unless for some reason you believe her being constructed of light somehow proves it was Resistance Negation? it doesn't if that's what you're saying.

We agreed on Light resisting inherently against darkness.
Weaker goddesses like Nerobasta can null commandment lvl darkness up to some point.
SD Is stronger than Mel and Zel.
Assuming They have higher hax potency despite darkness power being related to overall power Is way less concrete than just using What Is said and shown in the manga.

SD resist darkness
Light > darkness even when goddesses are weaker
SD Is stronger.

That's an appeal to reality, we don't give Light Manipulation users Radiation Manipulation just because they can create intense light, if you don't have a statement about radiation being produce we can't assume it does.

The possible use part of the radiation Manip page says it can be used in the context of an intense light production

I already explained my reasoning in the OP?

And i disagree with it

 

[Deceived3596]

I disagree with some

• Content Revision

Mael Grace justification​

• Thread starterAether_
• Start dateJul 29, 2022
• TagsEscanorMael (Nanatsu No Taizai) Nanatsu No Taizai

UNWATCH
[IMG alt="Aether_"]https://vsbattles.com/data/avatars/m/13/13169.jpg?1665966833[/IMG]

Aether_​

• Jul 29, 2022
• Edit bookmark
• #1

We know all grace literally refer to their elements.
Likes

Tarmiel Ocean grace = water ocean
Sariel Tornado grace = Wind such as large tornado and tempest
Ludociel Flash grace = flash of light
And "Sunshine" refer to creation of Create and manipulate of miniature sun size

But why?

First, it doesn't to be state as really with sunshine word, and most of side panel explanation in raw manga, state sunshine grace is literally only "sun"/"taiyo"/tai yang"(chinese translate of sun)
For one of example
Roughly translate

There is no statement about sunshine directly except escanor himself state his power called sunshine,

Even ludociel one of grace user always state this power is "sun/taiyo"

For further

And more evidence,
When escanor created small sun from his back
There is statement in the raw side panel confirmly if sun that they created from their body is a star "hoshi 星" in the sentence.

That mean the sun contains star material just like real sun.

And we already know that sunshine grace can give intense light and radiation as the same properties to real sun, and also got supporting feats from melascula and bellion that said, standing infront "sun" grace just like standing infront sun itself.


It's even show it in manga series or even movie that sun they created are similar to real sun.
(This one from movie even show that sun has sunstorm around it)


TLDR

"The Sun" that created by escanor or mael to some aspect like heat and etc, should be equal to real sun due it's have same nature, characteristic, and material properties to be a miniature sun star.
This is the last I am posting here

@Aether_ (the OP which you got this entire argument from) directly told you that it was rejected because DMUA explained to him why it was wrong, and why it isn't applicable on the wiki.

Don't copy and paste people's arguments when the person who created said arguments told you it was rejected. And since it was rejected by a knowledgeable member i'm also going to reject this argument based on his reasoning.

 

[Makai641001]

@Aether_ (the OP which you got this entire argument from) directly told you that it was rejected because DMUA explained to him why it was wrong, and why it isn't applicable on the wiki.

Don't copy and paste people's arguments when the person who created said arguments told you it was rejected. And since it was rejected by a knowledgeable member i'm also going to reject this argument based on his reasoning.

Creating visible light Is part of the radiation Manip

Gawain Also create « heat waves » in french it as some kind of correlation with the radiations but idk if it translate the same in english

 

[Deceived3596]

Creating visible light Is part of the radiation Manip

Yes.. via Radiation Manipulation... we don't give people who can create intense light through other abilities like Fire Manipulation or Light Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation without further context. You're asserting a bunch of unnecessary assumptions which isn't supporting by anything in the series.

That isn't logical, it's illogical.

Gawain Also create « heat waves » in french it as some kind of correlation with the radiations but idk if it translate the same in english

Heat waves aren't radiation at all? heat waves are just "excessively hot weather" which come about in certain climates, Gawain's Sunshine was most likely creating a bunch of ambit heat which was absorbed into the atmosphere around her. Causing the climate around the area to get hot and humid, creating heat waves.

If my guess on what you meant by "heat waves" is true than that definitely isn't a form of Radiation Manipulation either.

 

[Majinere566]

I disagree with some

• Content Revision

Mael Grace justification​

• Thread starterAether_
• Start dateJul 29, 2022
• TagsEscanorMael (Nanatsu No Taizai) Nanatsu No Taizai

UNWATCH
[IMG alt="Aether_"]https://vsbattles.com/data/avatars/m/13/13169.jpg?1665966833[/IMG]

Aether_​

• Jul 29, 2022
• Edit bookmark
• #1

We know all grace literally refer to their elements.
Likes

Tarmiel Ocean grace = water ocean
Sariel Tornado grace = Wind such as large tornado and tempest
Ludociel Flash grace = flash of light
And "Sunshine" refer to creation of Create and manipulate of miniature sun size

But why?

First, it doesn't to be state as really with sunshine word, and most of side panel explanation in raw manga, state sunshine grace is literally only "sun"/"taiyo"/tai yang"(chinese translate of sun)
For one of example
Roughly translate

There is no statement about sunshine directly except escanor himself state his power called sunshine,

Even ludociel one of grace user always state this power is "sun/taiyo"

For further

And more evidence,
When escanor created small sun from his back
There is statement in the raw side panel confirmly if sun that they created from their body is a star "hoshi 星" in the sentence.

That mean the sun contains star material just like real sun.

And we already know that sunshine grace can give intense light and radiation as the same properties to real sun, and also got supporting feats from melascula and bellion that said, standing infront "sun" grace just like standing infront sun itself.


It's even show it in manga series or even movie that sun they created are similar to real sun.
(This one from movie even show that sun has sunstorm around it)


TLDR

"The Sun" that created by escanor or mael to some aspect like heat and etc, should be equal to real sun due it's have same nature, characteristic, and material properties to be a miniature sun star.
This is the last I am posting here

Aint no way bro copied the tags and url aswell

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Trillion dark Is darkness bubbles therefore darkness as a whole should have it.

Thank you

No trillion dark is the only technique that’s stated dark enough to have mass, so only trillion dark should have it

 

[Makai641001]

Yes.. via Radiation Manipulation... we don't give people who can create intense light through other abilities like Fire Manipulation or Light Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation without further context. You're asserting a bunch of unnecessary assumptions which isn't supporting by anything in the series.

That isn't logical, it's illogical.


Heat waves aren't radiation at all? heat waves are just "excessively hot weather" which come about in certain climates, Gawain's Sunshine was most likely creating a bunch of ambit heat which was absorbed into the atmosphere around her. Causing the climate around the area to get hot and humid, creating heat waves.

If my guess on what you meant by "heat waves" is true than that definitely isn't a form of Radiation Manipulation either.

Yeah i think it translates differently in english my bad

 

[Makai641001]

No trillion dark is the only technique that’s stated dark enough to have mass, so only trillion dark should have it

???
Trillion Dark Is darkness in the form of bubbles He copied it From kings ability in Istar it has the properties of darkness

DK uses darkness and can change it’s mass from massless to heavy enough to crush Class T’s Melascula can change the density of her darkness to make it phase through the ground but also create tendrils that have mass

Meliodas can use darkness and enhance it’s mass enough to destroy a kingdom.

Why should We assume They change it’s mass only with one technique when said technique Is litteraly darkness drops.

If i shoot you With a rock Is it different in nature than just using said rock to beat the shit out of you ?
No absolutely Not it’s still a rock it’s nature doesn’t change depending on the use

BTW trillion Dark isn’t stated to be Dark enough the mass Is correlated with power

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

???
Trillion Dark Is darkness in the form of bubbles He copied it From kings ability in Istar it has the properties of darkness

DK uses darkness and can change it’s mass from massless to heavy enough to crush Class T’s Melascula can change the density of her darkness to make it phase through the ground but also create tendrils that have mass

Meliodas can use darkness and enhance it’s mass enough to destroy a kingdom.

Why should We assume They change it’s mass only with one technique when said technique Is litteraly darkness drops.

If i shoot you With a rock Is it different in nature than just using said rock to beat the shit out of you ?
No absolutely Not it’s still a rock it’s nature doesn’t change depending on the use

BTW trillion Dark isn’t stated to be Dark enough the mass Is correlated with power

Because it’s the only darkness technique that we can confirm actually went from massless to of mass.

 

[Makai641001]

Because it’s the only darkness technique that we can confirm actually went from massless to of mass.

I litteraly gave other exemples and explained how DARKNESS CAN GO FROM MASSLESS TO OF MASS
It’s nothing related to trillion Dark
The discussed feat isn’t even about said technique

Y’all even agreed on death zero applying pressure and having mass

Y’all know darkness tendrils have mass and can be interacted with

The mass correlate with power Therefore every High ranking demons can make their darkness mass change

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Y’all even agreed on death zero applying pressure and having mass

I didn’t agree with that, but I have no comment on it

Y’all know darkness tendrils have mass and can be interacted with

Could be NPI, but again I have made no comment on this either

 

[Makai641001]

I didn’t agree with that, but I have no comment on it



Could be NPI, but again I have made no comment on this either

You have no comment ???
I mean you don’t need to comment it to have an opinion for it it litteraly Is shown to crush them.

Meliodas used his darkness the same way against estarossa and Zeldris

Darkness Is constantly depicted the same way it can have mass if the demons are powerful enough.

Ominous nebulae can interact with normal swords and tangible characters it ain’t just NPI

I won’t force you to admit anything but i think it’s pretty obvious.

No comment Is better than disagreeing without a reason so it’s fine

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You have no comment ???
I mean you don’t need to comment it to have an opinion for it it litteraly Is shown to crush them.

Meliodas used his darkness the same way against estarossa and Zeldris

Darkness Is constantly depicted the same way it can have mass if the demons are powerful enough.

Ominous nebulae can interact with normal swords and tangible characters it ain’t just NPI

I won’t force you to admit anything but i think it’s pretty obvious.

No comment Is better than disagreeing without a reason so it’s fine

Yeah my no comment is “I’m too lazy to scroll through and find the scans you’re talking about, so if the majority disagree with my original premise that’s fine”

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Meliodas used his darkness the same way against estarossa and Zeldris

Darkness Is constantly depicted the same way it can have mass if the demons are powerful enough.

Ominous nebulae can interact with normal swords and tangible characters it ain’t just NPI

Then limit it to characters who have actually shown this application in their PoD, since as you said "if demons are powerful enough". While weaker demons get nothing or only a "Possibly" if you keep on arguing about.

 

[Deceived3596]

Well since this thread has reached a satisfactory amount of moderation agreements, with next to no moderation disagreements, and finally a vast majority of normal members agreeing with the OP compared to disagreeing with it.

I'm going to make the changes here shortly.

 

[ByAsura]

Hold your horses, my guy.

I seem to recall that my arguments made about Elemental Intangibility, which occurred after those staff members commented, got no input aside from one comment that I immediately countered.

There's so little evidence for it that zero statements exist (just statements of the opposite), and only one character uses darkness to counter light magic if you don't count Mel blotting out Mael's sun (which is not stated to project the same type of light magic that the Goddesses use).

 

[Deceived3596]

I seem to recall that my arguments made about Elemental Intangibility, which occurred after those staff members commented, got no input aside from one comment that I immediately countered.

If it's that big of a deal then @ those staff members then. Also you've only countered the Holy War examples (which didn't really counter my main argument tbh), nothing about your previous actually countered the Mael examples at all.

There's so little evidence for it that zero statements exist (just statements of the opposite), and only one character uses darkness to counter light magic if you don't count Mel blotting out Mael's sun (which is not stated to project the same type of light magic that the Goddesses use).

We don't need statements for direct visual proof and logical deduction, if it has only shown to work against Angels, using a power-source which I've deduced through consistent narrative examples (something you actually provided evidence for being true) is extremely effective against the holy nature of Goddesses. Supporting this interpretation by the fact Tarmiel wasn't able to phase through the physical darkness attacks of Mael, even though he would've wanted to so he could try and save Mael from being corrupted by the Commandments he absorbed.

It takes a higher preponderance of evidence to assume it would be applicable to every other elemental intang user compared to my claim given all the evidence and implications we're given in the series.

Until you can prove why your interpretation requires less assumptions/is more logically possible, my interpretation would ring most likely true.

Hold your horses, my guy.

Certified Cowboy Moment.

 

[Deceived3596]

Also since the main contention at hand is this Elemental Intang Negation stuff, it should be fine with me making the changes to the profiles which don't have mod contentions like Esconar's/Mael's Radiation Manipulation and Melascula's Regeneration Negation while we still debate this one topic?

 

[ByAsura]

@Planck69
@DemonGodMitchAubin
@Damage3245

Deceived is asking for your opinion on my counters.

Edit: Nvm. We've come to an agreement.

Also you've only countered the Holy War examples (which didn't really counter my main argument tbh), nothing about your previous actually countered the Mael examples at all.

It kind of did, though. Like the fact that Graces have affected beings that can tank much stronger levels of light magic.

We don't need statements for direct visual proof and logical deduction, if it has only shown to work against Angels, using a power-source which I've deduced through consistent narrative examples

That's kind of horseshit though (need more cowboy references). You absolutely need more than just logical deduction, especially when the evidence is insanely stringent.

As an example, this is logical deduction, but I based it on the known and stated facts that A) vampires have been killed by less, and B) blood strengthens their regeneration.

We don't even know that the elements produced by Graces are infused with light magic, and stuff like Tarmiel/Sariel's tornadoes and water don't simply deconstruct far inferior demons or darkness (Estarossa isn't vulnerable, but his darkness is) with a touch.

(something you actually provided evidence for being true)

I didn't, though. I provided a single example in a vacuum, which has only been repeated once after (I just found this, btw) despite multiple far stronger characters being in the situation to use it. Darkness has suppressed attacks other than light magic before, as well, and Nerobasta isn't remotely close to Derieri even in her far superior true body.

is extremely effective against the holy nature of Goddesses.

When is that shown outside of those two feats? In fact, it's always the opposite.

Supporting this interpretation by the fact Tarmiel wasn't able to phase through the physical darkness attacks of Mael, even though he would've wanted to so he could try and save Mael from being corrupted by the Commandments he absorbed.

Again, he's literally used elemental intangibility twice in the entire series, and gets hit even more consistently by attacks that are just normal.

Until you can prove why your interpretation requires less assumptions/is more logically possible, my interpretation would ring most likely true.

That's the problem, though.

This is just your interpretation. You've provided no actual evidence or anything really substantial, especially since most of what you're saying isn't even stated in the series to begin with.

Also since the main contention at hand is this Elemental Intang Negation stuff, i should be fine adding the changes to the profiles which don't have mod contentions like Radiation Manipulation and Melascula's Regeneration Negation while we still debate this one topic?

Sure.

 

[Makai641001]

Then limit it to characters who have actually shown this application in their PoD, since as you said "if demons are powerful enough". While weaker demons get nothing or only a "Possibly" if you keep on arguing about.

Yeah hence why i said We should grant it to High ranking demons Not weaklings

Also What Is PoD please ?
Power of Darkness?

 

[Arkenis]

Agreed! Do better NNT supporters.

 

[ByAsura]

Also since the main contention at hand is this Elemental Intang Negation stuff, it should be fine with me making the changes to the profiles which don't have mod contentions like Esconar's/Mael's Radiation Manipulation and Melascula's Regeneration Negation while we still debate this one topic?

Maybe we can meet in the middle here, since technically it's also unproven that it would work outside of a Goddess.

Instead of saying limited outright (maybe even possibly limited is a good solution), how about we just say in the description that it's unknown whether or not this works outside the Goddess Clan?

 

[Deceived3596]

It kind of did, though. Like the fact that Graces have affected beings that can tank much stronger levels of light magic.

K? i don't see how this pertains to our current conversation ngl.

That's kind of horseshit though (need more cowboy references). You absolutely need more than just logical deduction, especially when the evidence is insanely stringent.

As an example, this is logical deduction, but I based it on the known and stated facts that A) vampires have been killed by less, and B) blood strengthens their regeneration.

Uncontradicted logical deduction is completely usable as evidence, by definition it is. If you can't actually counteract that logical deduction then you can't assume your claim is above mine. It's that simple. Also i'm just not working purely off of logical deductions, i have evidence which backs my claim up like the fact Tarmiel couldn't phase through Mael's darkness.

I know what logical deduction is homie. Yeah and i'm doing the exact samething? i'm basing my logical deduction off of the fact Estarossa's Intangibility Negation only worked against demons and that Darkness is narratively the antithesis to Goddesses Light Magic. I'm not basing my arguments on complete fabrications or anything of the sort. I'm just interpreting the evidence differently compared to you, which is fine. I just believe my interpretations hold truer compared to yours.

Just because your previous example has a stated fact doesn't my logical deduction is inherently lesser/isn't supported.

I didn't, though. I provided a single example in a vacuum, which has only been repeated once after (despite multiple far stronger characters being in the situation to use it). Darkness has suppressed attacks other than light magic before, as well.

That single example is still evidence to my claim, not counter evidence against it. That was my point. The repetition of a statement being made isn't evidence against it, it's like saying Estraossa only nullified Tarmiel's intang once, which means it shouldn't be assumed he could do it again another time. Doesn't make any logical sense.

Estarossa being unable to nullify Arks isn't evidence against the fact Darkness can inherently nullify the intangibility of Tarmiel?, can you prove why Tarmiel's Intang would require a higher potency of darkness to actually nullify compared to Arks, even through consistently Arks are shown to be extremely difficult to null compared to Tarmiel's intang.

K? Darkness can null other attacks, that's fine. Don't see how this debunks or lessens my argument at all.

When?

Evidence is in the OP? also Darkness by nature is antithetical against light, so it would quite literally make no sense for darkness to not be extremely effective against angels when light is extremely effective against demons. It takes more evidence to assume the contrary.

Again, he's literally used elemental intangibility twice in the entire series, and gets hit even more consistently by attacks that are just normal.

K? doesn't debunk my argument about Tarmiel's mindset, appealing to the amount of times he used his intang isn't a counter argument to the narrative of Tarmiel's character. He actively wanted to save Mael, so he would've absolutely used his intang to phase through his attack, but he didn't/couldn't.

That's the problem, though.

This is just your interpretation. You've provided no actual evidence or anything really substantial, especially since most of what you're saying isn't even stated in the series to begin with.

I literally did provide evidence, you only provided another interpretation to that evidence. That's it. If you can't actually explain why your interpretation requires less assumptions like i did, you'd have to concede on the fact my argument requires less assumptions to be true compared to your argument.

Sure.

Based.

 

[Deceived3596]

Instead of saying limited outright (maybe even possibly limited is a good solution), how about we just say in the description that it's unknown whether or not this works outside the Goddess Clan?

Honestly i'm fine with this interpretation personally tbh, if the other mods consign it then i'm fine with applying it onto the profile since we actually don't know for sure if it's only applicable against Goddesses or is also applicable against non-angelic beings as well, so this "compromise" actually makes more logical sense to me compared to both of our personal interpretations tbh.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Seems like the two of you fellas have come to a coccession

 

[Deceived3596]

Cocc-ession

 

[ByAsura]

Uncontradicted logical deduction is completely usable as evidence, by definition it is.

It's contradicted, though.

If you can't actually counteract that logical deduction then you can't assume your claim is above mine. It's that simple.

Which is totally wrong. You're actually the one making a claim, and burden of proof suggests that you have to prove it. I'm just pointing out that your evidence isn't sufficient in the first place.

The problem with this logical deduction is that your evidence doesn't even line up with the claims.

Also i'm just not working purely off of logical deductions, i have evidence which backs my claim up like the fact Tarmiel couldn't phase through Mael's darkness.

By Mael, do you mean when he was Estarossa, or when he got killed by the ark beam? Because the archangels had lost so much strength by that point that Sariel was literally breaking up, despite the fact that he'd been maintaining his powers for just a little longer than Tarmiel (just enough for Mael to absorb a commandment over 5 or so panels).

If you mean when he was Estarossa, then that's the subject that you have to base facts around, not evidence in and of itself.

Yeah and i'm doing the exact samething?

No you're not. I didn't base my conclusions off simply evidence, I based them off outright facts that were established in the series (it helps that they had no counter-evidence towards them).

i'm basing my logical deduction off of the fact Estarossa's Intangibility Negation only worked against demons and that Darkness is narratively the antithesis to Goddesses Light Magic.

Which isn't proven.

I'm not basing my arguments on complete fabrications or anything of the sort. I'm just interpreting the evidence differently compared to you, which is fine. I just believe my interpretations hold truer compared to yours.

Ok, but where is it ever stated that Graces were infused with light magic? You completely made that up, and it's simply beyond a logical conclusion.

Edit: Grace's elements.

Just because your previous example has a stated fact doesn't my logical deduction is inherently lesser/isn't supported.

It inherently is. My deduction was based on proven facts, while yours literally fits the definition of speculation.

• the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

That single example is still evidence to my claim, not counter evidence against it. That was my point.

It's not even really evidence to your claim, though. It'd be evidence if it was more effective against darkness specifically, but that's not the case here.

The repetition of a statement being made isn't evidence against it, it's like saying Estraossa only nullified Tarmiel's intang once, which means it shouldn't be assumed he could do it again another time. Doesn't make any logical sense.

This argument is highly illogical. I'm not remotely trying to comment on a lack of times something has been used itself (the statement that Tarmiel only used it twice wasn't referring to the lack of times, just the fact that every other time wasn't with intangibility), I'm trying to say that your evidence isn't very strong when Tarmiel's been hit by everything under the sun.

Estarossa being unable to nullify Arks isn't evidence against the fact Darkness can inherently nullify the intangibility of Tarmiel?, can you prove why Tarmiel's Intang would require a higher potency of darkness to actually nullify compared to Arks, even through consistently Arks are shown to be extremely difficult to null compared to Tarmiel's intang.

Yes. Why tf would it be when Estarossa couldn't even do such a feat against Tarmiel previously but could against the Ark someone much stronger (that being Elizabeth)?

K? Darkness can null other attacks, that's fine. Don't see how this debunks or lessens my argument at all.

I'm saying it's not actually evidence.

Evidence is in the OP?

Evidence that's questionable at best, hence the predicament.

also Darkness by nature is antithetical against light, so it would quite literally make no sense for darkness to not be extremely effective against angels when light is extremely effective against demons. It takes more evidence to assume the contrary.

It doesn't take more evidence to assume the contrary. Nothing is stated or shown except the opposite, especially since users of light magic way, way, way weaker than darkness users have hurt said darkness users.

K? doesn't debunk my argument about Tarmiel's mindset, appealing to the amount of times he used his intang isn't a counter argument to the narrative of Tarmiel's character. He actively wanted to save Mael, so he would've absolutely used his intang to phase through his attack, but he didn't/couldn't.

Tarmiel only took a single hit after figuring out who Mael was, and by that time the Archangels were already starting to physically fall apart due to using too much power. And again, Tarmiel didn't do that against the Induras in a battle mindset.

I literally did provide evidence, you only provided another interpretation to that evidence. That's it. If you can't actually explain why your interpretation requires less assumptions like i did, you'd have to concede on the fact my argument requires less assumptions to be true compared to your argument.

Evidence was the wrong word on my part, I meant even a speck of proof.

And I provided evidence to show why those claims don't make sense to begin with, like the fact that Tarmiel's Ocean doesn't work against Estarossa's darkness wings.

Your argument is literally founded on assumptions. I've only made one.

 

[Deceived3596]

Why are you responding to my arguments when i literally agreed with your compromise.

 

[ByAsura]

Because I'm kind of offended by how bad those arguments were, ngl

 

[Deceived3596]

The arguments aren't bad, you just don't understand them goober.

 

[Arkenis]

Ok, but where is it ever stated that Graces were infused with light magic? You completely made that up, and it's simply beyond a logical conclusion.

Is this about if Graces are real and not magic?

 

[ByAsura]

The arguments aren't bad, you just don't understand them goober.

Bruh
r
u
h

Bruh
ruh
uh
h

1 million year ban

Is this about if Graces are real and not magic?

No, it was about the elements Tarmiel and Sariel generate, which aren't shown to break down darkness specifically.

I worded that very poorly, since they are fractions of SD's power and would logically contain light magic in the Commandment-like admonitions that get imbued into them. But I did mention that earlier in the argument.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bruh
r
u
h

1 million year ban

​

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, feel free to make the edits and I'll close this.

 

[Arkenis]

Nice, crt accomplished in 1 page

 

[Deceived3596]

Time for me to spam of bunch on nonsense just so this thread gets to two pages.