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Ikki Kurogane vs Cole MacGrath

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Firephoenixearl said:
By the fact that he's using Ionic Drain. He won't be doing any of that during Ionic Drain.
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Yeah, and as aforementioned, he can likely shut it down with a thought, and then do any of the other two things I mentioned with either a thought (Precision) or a hand wave (Kinetic Pulse, Blast), whereas Ikki has to sense danger, step outta range, throw the sword and then there's travel time.
 
PTSOXMONKEY99 said:
Yeah, and as aforementioned, he can likely shut it down with a thought, and then do any of the other two things I mentioned with either a thought (Precision) or a hand wave (Kinetic Pulse, Blast), whereas Ikki has to sense danger, step outta range, throw the sword and then there's travel time.
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>Likely

Has he ever even done that? Besides even if he does there are too many actions he has to do to deal with the sword throw.

1. Notice ikki stepped outta range and threw his sword

2. Notice the sword isn't affected by ion drain.

3. Shut down Ion Drain

4. Use telekenisis

All before the sword reaches him which WAY too many actions for that one as the sword throw would practically blitz. Same as how if someone threw a rock at you from 20 meters away you wouldn't be able to see the rock nor dodge in time unless you dodge before the rock is thrown.

Ikki sensing danger is passive. Him stepping outta range would happen right as Ion Drain was about to start so a moot point. No other abilities will be used in the meantime. Stepping outta range and throwing the sword can be done at the same time. And travel time as I said above, is almost nothing, due to the nature of how thrown objects far exceed your own reaction and movement speed.
 
It's an attack that is activated by his will, same as lightning storm, ionic storm, lightning blasts, aura, etc. He's shown that he can shut these down with a thought. If it were an attack that he launches from his hand and then loses control over, then yeah, this wouldn't be a thing. But it starts when he wants it, and can likely shut it down when he wants it to.

1. Radar Sense can passively detect teleporters the second they pop back into the world, so he's not gonna lose track of him anytime soon

2. Cole already knows how Ionic Drain works and that it doesn't physically effect people and objects, just drains energy from them. He can passively sense electricity in his area. He knows what a sword is and that it has no electricity. Him thinking Ionic Drain will affect a sword is not something that will happen.

3. Again, it takes a thought

4. Takes a hand wave. And when he notices Ikki's speed stepping back, he's gonna use Precision to boost his reaction and movement speed, which, when taking the swords travel time in account, increases his chances of stoping the sword. There's also blasts, which can be shot off in an omnidirectional matter by flexing.

And Cole has reflected projectiles away from other people, who're standing a bit a ways away from him, while he was moving, and while the object was like a foot away from a persons face. He's been noted by trained government agents that he's a good shot and he's shown that he can multitask while fighting.
 
That's far too many things to use at a time. Also the "likely" is just headcannon. This drains the electricity of everything nearby. Has it ever been stopped mid way? If not then no.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I address that Ikki's info analysis on fighting styles really doesn't mean he automatically knows that anything barring Decap won't work?
 
Schnee One said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I address that Ikki's info analysis on fighting styles really doesn't mean he automatically knows that anything barring Decap won't work?
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Yes but it's in character for him to go for that.
 
Schnee One said:
He's literally never done it even outside of the tournament
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Wut? Which cases exactly?

If you're reffering to the terrorist attack. That's cus that dude stripped stella, and shit hits the fan if that happens.
 
Schnee One said:
Yeah, stripped Stella, and one of them tried to kill a child
STILL didn't cut his head off,
Click to expand...
Cus he was using material form, not phantom form. He has "never" killed an opponent (besides Iris which he had to), but when using phantom form he doesn't have to worry about dealing damage cus it just makes them faint.
 
Schnee One said:
Exactly
So why would he bother worrying about cutting off the head?
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Cus that's the only way to make him faint. When using phantom form against people he doesn't know (like the vermillion army) he always goes for the head (decap, or brain damage) so that he'll make them faint.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
That's far too many things to use at a time. Also the "likely" is just headcannon. This drains the electricity of everything nearby. Has it ever been stopped mid way? If not then no.
Click to expand...
Radar and electricity sense is passive, and it's a major tool he's used throughout both games. Don't see how it's too much for him now. Coles already used to using Precision and attacking something that is too fast for him normally, it was the literally the fist thing he did when he got the power. He's got experience with it and all he needs to activate is a thought.

We already know Cole can stop draining electricity by willing it. He can even do this with Bio Leech, which Ionic Drain is basically the upgraded form of. The only reason you can't stop it in game is because game mechanics and the fact that the developers wanted super moved to not break the game like you could in the last game.
 
Schnee One said:
Frontal Jab here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KgfoHnlSy4I
Slash here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i6sUb52yulg&t=124s

Slash here, although I think it's anime only as he uses Rassetsu against Stella. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIpHIMTBHY

Ouma if I remember he performed a right slash

The only one I recall him doing a head slash was Stella.....Where he jumped in their air giving Cole a completely obvious opening.
Click to expand...
Kuraudo that fight: Dojo rules, we have to fight using material form

Tournament fight, rules say material form

Same as above ^^

Wait on Ouma when? He never actually fought ouma without getting stomped to oblivion until the last arc where he uses Phantom form and the ending of the fight happens off screen we don't know how Ikki wins. Ok so from the vermillion arc:

Ikki dodged the lance attack of Tilmitt with that,

― Fuh.

He slashed Tilmitt who became defenseless in mid-air due to the unexpected protection with the blade of《Illusory Form》.

― Kuh, ah.

Against Daniel:

He dodged it with paper-thin difference and pierced Ikki's glabella with a bitter counter!

― !?!?

Immediately after, the consciousness of Dandalion froze.

Because the pointed end of《Intetsu》appeared in front of him all of a sudden.

The time of Dandalion stopped with the predicament of his life.

He was astonished in the midst of that halt.

Why was the tip of the sword in front of his eyes?

Even though the tip of his sword hadn't reach the enemy.


Ikki pulled the unraveled thread and brought 《Intetsu》that was flipped back to his hands like a yoyo and――

― HaAAAAAAA!!!!

He cut down the defenseless Dandalion who ended up swinging Foil to repel《Intetsu》with the grip of his blade.

Against the Imperial Guards:

In the narrow alley they couldn't make the best use of their advantage in numbers.

If he ran around skillfully, then he would be able to get around opponents with minimum battle.

Ikki judged the situation in an instant. He made a strategy and,

― Haaa!

― Guhaa!

He made the three Imperial Guards that were sticking out to faint with a hit in their necks with《Illusory Form》and tried to escape.
 
<Tilmitt

I see literally nothing there that says he goes for the head, it said he slashed him

<Daniel

He had the sword in his eyes sure, but It even says that he flipped his grip.

<Imperial Guards

Cut across the throat doesn't bypass Low Mid, only a full on Decapitation.
 
A slash has to go through a vital spot, while it doesn't say where he struck considering most of the vital strikes would go through the neck (decpitation), bisection (vertical), headshot etc. And considering he aims for the head with phantom form and her head would have been closer i'd say it's fair to assume head.

He didn't flip his grip, there's a reason i put more space in between those lines. the first half is when Ikki threw his sword right for the headshot. But dandalion manages to hit the sword away, then Ikki uses his black thread to pull the sword back and strike him again.

A cut across the throat is not fatal either. The sword as i said literally phases through the body, it doesn't even touch the body. But a strike in the neck would mean the sword phased through the neck (decapitation). Idk where you got the "cut across the throat" when it says "it hit the neck".
 
Define "Vital"

People with no Regenerationn will get killed by a large enough slash anywhere to their body or a stab to the heart.

These, are at best, minor inconviences to Cole.

You do realize you can cut the throats without decapitating someone right? Throat Slitting is a thing

Akame-gif2.gif
 
Anything that will instantly kill someone. Heart, bisection, headshot etc.

Not really. If said slash doesn't hit a vital organ (slice it in half), you will live normally, though there is just the bloodloss problem, which is not the case with a hit by phantom form because there is no bloodloss happening, there is no blood at all as there is no damage.

Depends the one time he threw his sword against an opponent because he deemed it the right solution at the time was when he went for the headshot so...

Not really. A cut to the throat only kills because of bloodloss, if you could somehow negate such bloodloss it would literally be not a problem. And as i said, there is no blood loss happening.
 
Those first two will not do anything as I mentioned.

Except slashing a vital or causing huge blood loss are both fatal regardless, thus Phantom Form influences the body into thinking it's dead.

Not like this matters, because like you say, Ikki still targets Vital Organs often.

Ikki slashes Cole's organs, Cole's body is convinced its Organs just got slashed, but Regenerationn covers this.
 
Bisection and headshot will. So there are 3 things ikk does in character that will end the fight. Decapitation, Headshot, and complete vertical bisection (like against stella). While you can at best "assume" he didn't do any of these cus they weren't mentioned.

Yes but one is different cus a headshot is fatal regardless of bloodloss. Whereas bloodloss is nothing if no blood comes out. So if you cut your wrist, but no blood comes out, you're fine. However if you shoot yourself in the head whether blood comes out or not, you'll still die.

Not really. When did the vital organs happen? Im just saying he needs to target vitals (but decap, bisection and headshot are also vital/fatal), not he does target them. Iirc there hasn't been a case where he goes for those using phantom form but as i said you can at most just assume he does these because it's not stated, but nothing concrete.

Except not, i showed you 3 cases where he goes for the head. And he went for the head when he threw his sword, so....

Anyway some more cases of phantom form fights:

  • Momiji vs Ikki (Ikki goes for an overhead strike, Momiji puts up her sword for a block so he just cuts her torso from the side instead. But as i said that's cus she went for a block).
From an overhead stance, Ikki had swung Intetsu down, and by sheer force, blasted away the approaching Enmaku.


And at the same time, -Momiji's spirit as well.


(...)


Having cleared Enmaku away, Ikki's eyes shone like a wet blade.


Momiji's blood ran cold seeing this.


Head and chest, mind and body, would be cut apart.


Ikki wasn't foolish enough to waste that moment.


He closed to space between them now that there was no obstacle-


Fast.


Though she'd frozen for only an instant, Momiji lost her chance to respond.

(I won't put the case where he uses Trackless Step and cuts her torso, to save space here, you can believe me on that one i guess, as idk i have nothing to gain from saying "he cut her torso" when that's not what im trying to prove).

*Ikki vs Touka Rematch (Ikki cuts her throat)

In order to kick up a shard from the ring, he had stuck his foot in a crack. Then, while he was bending back due to the electric shock, he launched the shard into the gap between Narukami and its scabbard.


This prevented the resheathing of the sword, leaving Touka defenseless.


"Ka, Ha-"


In that instant, Ikki finished recovering from the shock and cut Touka at the throat.
 
Also idk why but i especially love this part:

"Even so, Sara-ku's Color of Magic is truly convenient. Even with so many people around, nobody can see us. I've always wanted such a convenient power.


"Even without a special power, something similar can be done."


"Is that so?"


"Ikki did it."


"...That only makes it feel more impossible."


Tsukikage's wrinkled face twisted into a bitter grin.
 
Sooooo... do the previous votes count? I'm still siding with Cole.
 
I think they still do, only thing that was made clear that they were "Wrong" about was the range

Then again, most of the people that voted have been on previous threads where I explained his range

Even then, that assumes the range is only 20 meters, because Angel is trying to find the best range feat.
 
Sooooo... Can this be added? Or should I wait until the thread hits the 500 post limit?
 
I mean @Schnee

It's not just that. New arguments have been brought up. With ikki's senses being able to keep him outta danger and him having a very in character win condition with the sword throw.
 
There's currently an ongoing debate regarding if Trackless step will work on someone with mind resistance

Depending on the conclusion it can affect this match a lot.
 
Schnee One said:
There's currently an ongoing debate regarding if Trackless step will work on someone with mind resistance
Depending on the conclusion it can affect this match a lot.
Click to expand...
Tbf if Trackless Step works it might be almost stomp-ish.
 
I mean aside from the range that was the only thing Giving Ikki the win.

Also, If Ikki is baseline, Cole's lightning aura will break the sword
 
Schnee One said:
I mean aside from the range that was the only thing Giving Ikki the win.
Also, If Ikki is baseline, Cole's lightning aura will break the sword
Click to expand...
Actually even without that, there is the senses+swordthrow.

Nah, invulnerability against non magical attacks.
 
The Wright Way said:
That still sounds incredibly NLF. Also dura negation isn't AP.
Click to expand...
Actually:

Not full invulnerability is just Durability.

Dura neg negates durability.

So something that can't be broken by anything at all including dura neg. It makes sense considering it's a materialization of their soul.
 
Maybe magic just allows the sword to have resistance to that kind of durability negation?
 
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