Ikki Kurogane vs Cole MacGrath

[Schnee_One]

I would assume higher but I'll leave it at that

Another thing I saw in that video I forgot about, Cole can do the Ionic Drain multiple times, when I thought he can only do it once, so even if he fails the first time and notices it's an illusion, he can do it again.

Also, forgot to say this, will Ikki's afterimages work since the generate zero electricity? If they're only visual Illusions like you say, ten Cole will sense no electricity from them due to Radar Sense

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's just a matter of opinion, the point is that's rather duable, like ikki would be able to just close in on 1 step.

Doubtfully, he will at least be deterred, a single step to close in would be easy for Ikki. Considering all the flexing, Ikki should be significantly faster with the 0 acceleration and all.

Well it's an afterimage not an illusion. Im not sure myself but afterimages would have electricity. Since they are just "ikki was there, but not anymore" kind of thing, so he would feel electricity for some time or feel and not feel at the same time, but i'd say he wouldn't notice this slight chance over his own eyes. I mean i doubt he's that skilled.

But this changes things, i thought Ionic Drain was just Cole snapping from 100 meters away or sth. That level of range is duable with Edel's swordplay for 0 accel.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

It can go farther, really depends on where you activate it. I once activated it while standing on the largest building in game (like a few dozen meters) and it still managed to snag the guys standing on the bottom.

Plus, he can activate it at least 3 times if he were to miss the fist time, and even if he doesn't drain a person, the drain from nearby electrical sources gives him a Bio Leech Overload, which grants him unlimited energy for a few moments, giving him time to spam his best attacks (or Precision).

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about Radar, an object doesn't need electricity for Cole to be able to sense it. Not only can he sense out the local landscape (buildings, lakes, trees etc), but he can also sense out things like the Dustmen's Scrap Crabs, which are just pieces of scrap metal garbage being animated by psychic energy, and even Kessler's mind hax clones, who are made of who knows what. So, just not having electricity isn't enough to go unnoticed by his radar.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's just flat game mechanics then. Like the game just has a weird thing on the range.

Well ok fair enough, but will he even have time when a dude with 0 accel just practically teleports in when he thought he killed him?

I mean ikki does have electricity so it's not like that was a problem.

 

[Schnee_One]

@PTSO

Yeah, no man, that's Game mechanics for the first one. That or a bug.

Then again, A 360 degree angle covering Cole even if it is only 20 meters means Ikki cannot at all approach him and his only way of winning is throwing his sword.

Trackless step, even if it covers most of the distance, if he appears anywhere in the vicinity, he is dead.

Plus, about Zero Accel, he has no idea Cole actually need to flex in order to kill him. So I'm not sure why he would approach him when he knows not too due to his Danger sense.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No if it works only on height, it's just game mechanics on the way the range works. Because it may be a cylinder type of hitbox. Game mechanics don't shorten the radius in flat spaces, it may work wierdly in heights or non balanced grounds. It's normal, but yeah i'd say if it works only on heights, it's just game mechanics due to the way the hitbox works.

He can, the ionic drain is not passive, and all the flexing is enough for a dude with 0 accel to close 20 meters. Besides even then throwing his sword at 20m away or after closing in more, cole won't really be able to react to that, the speed would be too high.

Well, it's not instant and it's not passive.

Well the danger sense triggers right before the danger happens, example if ikki is about to get into the 20 meters and cole starts to flex, he'll immediately step out (that's what he did vs edel).

I was about to vote cole, but this range definitely skyrockets Ikki's previous chance of winning. 20 meters is rather small compared to what Ikki deals with on a daily.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

I mean, it mentions that he drains it out of nearby machines as well, not just people, and Overcharge was a thing established in the game, so not that crazy.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean, it mentions that he drains it out of nearby machines as well, not just people, and Overcharge was a thing established in the game, so not that crazy.

Which point is this answering, im lost.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

About Ionic Drain not granting Bio Leech Overload if no person is nearby. Cole has an ability where if he drains enough energy, he'll become Overcharged, which does the same thing as Overload, except it'll last shorter or longer than Overload depending on if he's standing on a conductive object like wires, transformers, etc.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I never said "it doesn't grant Bio Leech Overload" though.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ikki does not know that his opponent needs only a split second to instantly kill him, especially when Precision boosts Cole's speed.

Besides 0 Accel is literally one ability out of plenty of others he has, Trackless step (Which debatably works but Cole still has plenty of counters as discussed). Afterimages (Which fail immediately due to Radar Sense) and Zero Accel

Something tells me a vague idea of "I'm in danger" from 20 Meters away and literally Zero idea of anything else will force Ikki to use the one option he debatably has for winning.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean, it takes about 1 second, but he has dealt with far worse against Edelweiss. He was in a similar spot except she vastly dwarfed him in skill. And about precision, Ikki's pseudo ittou shura (the 48x only to his reaction and perception) would make the precision boost rather weak.

Yes but what does any of that mean? 0 accel is passive, as in he never needs to accelerate in battle, he has the skill to move his muscles in unison which grants him speed from 0 to top instantly, why would he not use it? Trackless Step and Afterimages are just in character moves (afterimages are far more in character though. And to top it off, would cole really have enough skill to deal with all 3 at the same time before ikki throws his sword or makes 1 step?

Well the dangers somehow tell him what to do. As i said, against Edel, he stepped in, sense rang out, he stepped out, then realized Edel had slashed without him even realizing. Against Stella he planned to use Ittou Rasetsu, sense rang out, he didn't do it (it would have cost him the match if he had done so). Again against Stella, Stella did a thrust, he went to reflect it, sense rang out and gave him a vision of his head getting blown off, he swinged his head to the side to dodge, he had made a misscalculation without knowing it, it would have killed him if he had tried to reflect. Against Renren, she was too fast, he couldn't perceive him, battle awareness (which was a couple of meters at first, but becomes around 100 meters in this arc) he stepped to the left and won. There are plenty of cases like these. His senses always tell him what would be dangerous apparently.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Well the Precision boost makes people comparable to Cole look like they're moving in slow motion normally, and it got even better when you upgrade it in the game, so there's that. Not sure how it stacks up to 48x perception boost, but keep in mind that Cole's increases his perception, combat, and attack speed, as he can now aim faster, his attacks are faster, and everyone looks slower.

Those three moves in combination would be really deadly, but as aforementioned, Cole either has confirmed counters or possible counters to them. Meaning that even if all 3 are used at once, it won't matter since 1 (possibly 2) of them won't work due to Cole's senses and experience with people playing mind games with him, meaning he'll only really have to deal with 1-2 things. And given that his radar works on people who're FTE to him to the point where it looks like they're teleporting, that also ups his chances against Zero Accel.

He can potentially back away out of range (but like I said, 20m isn't the confirmed max range, the video was just the best example we had on hand), but from there it's not like its GG. He'll still have to move in to strike, unless he throws his sword, and Cole still has 2 more shots to use Ionic Drain (more if Cole can drain enough energy to restore his Ionic Charges).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki's perception does the same. Though again Ikki's amp just dwarfs him in reaction time.

Yes in combination, in less then a second all used at the same time by a guy who knows pretty much exactly what Cole will do due to Perfect Vision. And his radar picking stuff up doesn't mean he can react to all 3.

Well yes, but ikki can move in to strike well before a 2nd drain. All that flexing will be more than enough for ikki to just move in and throw his sword. Like if the distance were a little bit bigger it could be argued but that much is basically nothing. I mean ikki's 0 accel literally let him cross 100 meters before people could react (due to not starting slow).

 

[Schnee_One]

You say "All that flexing" yet it barely takes him a second to even do said pose and Ikki's dead. It's not like just because it isn't thought based means that Ikki crossing that distance is somehow faster then making a pose.

Besides, Ikki's Danger sense isn't perfect, he got caught off guard by Ayase's wind cutter.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Fair enough

Yeah, but Cole will immediately see through after image, will be able to track him even with zero accel, and yadda yadda Radar Pulse vs Trackless Step, so again, he won't have to react to all 3, he'll have already seen through a few of them before they get a chance to impede him. Cole is used to fight against hordes of enemies while dodging numerous attacks, so its not like he can't multitask. His fight against Kessler displays this perfectly, as he had to fight against a future version of himself, who had prep, who could moved so fast it looked like he was teleporting, who could control the battlefield via earthquakes, creating landmines and telekinesis, and liked to spam homing mind hax clones and drones that couldn't be detected by his Radar and could turn invisible. Kessler often did several of these actions at a time, and Cole still managed to defeat him. There are other instances of Cole multitasking in battle, but this is the best one I could think of.

^What Gar said about posing. Plus, Cole has other methods of keeping Ikki away such as omnidirectinal shockwaves which use KE and maybe even telekinesis

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@schne

Yes but a pose and a flex that takes 1 second. I mean how much time do you think it takes ikki to throw his sword or close the distance?

Ikki's sense wasn't that good then. This is sssaf ikki this is when his senses got amped to hell. Same as how it took him a long time to figure out a strategy vs kirihara but when sara did the same a literal split second was needed for him to just find her using his senses.

 

[Schnee_One]

Fron 20 Meters, possibly further away in a speed Equalized match where his only Amp is Accel 0? Not fast enough.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

^At that with the fact that Cole is definitely gonna use Precision once he sees Ikki dash outta the way

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

I'm pretty sure posing isnt even necessary for precision to amp his speed. It's instant to his thoughts.

 

[Schnee_One]

For precision it isn't, for Ion drain it requires a minor pose

 

[Migue79]

Grace is over

 

[Schnee_One]

Keep it open, keep discussing until we hit a dead end.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

^This

It'd be pretty cheap if we closed the match while a debate is still going on

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Fron 20 Meters, possibly further away in a speed Equalized match where his only Amp is Accel 0? Not fast enough.

It's literally 2 steps, as i said, in speed equal, he literally crossed 100 meters before anyone could start to follow him (due to Accel 0). But again, Ikki can throw the sword even while Ionic Drain is still happening. So just jump back and sling shot the sword.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Keep it open, keep discussing until we hit a dead end.

Not many people do this. I respect this, here's a Kudo.

 

[Schnee_One]

Two steps is way less then a mere muscle gesture. And this assumes Ikki decides to throw his sword when he has done that twice in the series.

When he knew that there were traps all around Ayase, he charged her to cover distance

With Kiraira whoever the **** with the direst, he charged.

He knows he's in danger if he's within 20 meters and that's it

Besides, that's assuming Trackless step works, otherwise Colr dodges with ease.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually no, that flexing isn't "a mere muscle gesture" you're saying it like he just snaps. He bends over flexes hard then it starts, that's a comparable time. And as i said, ikki can throw his sword as Ionic Drain is being used.

Previous arc Ikki.

Previous arc ikki.

Not really, he knows even before he does or right as he steps in.

Depends.

 

[Schnee_One]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UBhOuyUk2YI

Arching your back and moving your hands is not comparable time, all he is arch, while moving his hands, and done. This is not some comllicated movement, it's a damn Jojo pose.

Where does his senses get better?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hands and feet are by virtue faster than your back. And again, he does Ionic Drain, he throws his sword while ionic drain is happening.

Well his feats start from his battle against Edelweiss. Just go to Ikki Kurogane's profile. Go to the feat section and Ctrl + F senses. You'll see some feats i gathered.

 

[Schnee_One]

But once you take into account a mere Arch of your back, especially from a far above peak condition athlete like Cole and the two leaps you have to take to cross 20 meters, plus Cole's own amp, then it falls to a mere movement as opposed to crossing distance

He won't be throwing his sword if he crosses the distance though, if he crosses the distance, he dies, if he crosses the distance and throws his sword, that's at best an Incon as Ikki does and Cole is incapped.

I'll read his file more in depth

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's a mute point due to 0 accel. Moving your back is not top speed action. Whereas 0 accel makes everything he does a top speed action.

And it really depends, he could just throw his sword as Ionic Drain is happening. He gets to 20 meters, cole starts to bend over, he steps back and throws his sword.

Oki.

 

[Schnee_One]

I don't get that first bit

If he gets to 20 meters and Cole is bending by then, the drain is already happening and Ikki throwing his sword will not happen fast enough. Actually, even if throwing his sword was fast enough to cross the distance as Cole bends, Ikki is dead, and Cole is incapacitated.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's the "acceleration vs no acceleration part". Im saying due to the no accel it would be far easier than it sounds.

"Already bending". Why would he be already bending if before Ikki even gets in range. Besides as i said, senses. Danger sense ain't letting ikki get hit. He gets at the borderline (max range) cole starts bending, he steps back to avoid it. As Cole continues his Ion Drain, he throws his sword.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Would throwing his sword even be effective against Cole during Ionic Drain? He's still absorbing electricity from his surroundings, meaning he's accelerating his Regenerationn and restoring his stamina/energy pool at the same. Damaging him during this time period is tough.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not a stamina drain so yeah it will be effective.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's social inferencing although I'm not sure how that would interact with regen.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Basically it works via making a person think they were fatally struck and they respond in kind right?

I'm kinda curious as to how this will interact with a person who pretty much takes what would normally be considered fatal wounds in stride? Like, Cole has canonically took a shotgun blast to the chest and a magnum round to the face and he just got back up. His perception of a "fatal wound" is different from a persons without regen. Has Ikki ever done this to a person with healing?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well he has done it to people without fatality. He just cut their arms, people can literally see their arms ok, but they still can't use said arm.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Even then, a non-fatal wound to Cole's perception would still be in the realm of him healing it up. Even incomplete dollar store value Conduits can regrow blown off arms fairly easily.